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Ground Hog Day


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Rivers has shown what? Nothing and.all the smoke and mirror guys have him as stud. Facts remain. Rivers is 1 year behind in development. He has not faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.

Brown is a disappointment and has not liked up to his billing.That is why Shelton is here. I have high hopes for him, but that's it.

The pass rush is still a huge question mark and its riding on Rivers and Clayborn
I would have to have seen a LB at 31 instead of Sony. You saw what happened after Hightower got hurt.

I'm still confused by how we can't count on Rivers for anything (which is fair) because he's basically a rookie and hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season, which is why we should have drafted a rookie who hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.
 
Easy to be in the top 5 in points allowed when you get to face the Bills, Jets, and Fins 6 times per year.




(Bracing for impact)
So give us a list of all the teams that played such a frightening array of offenses all 16 weeks.
These “schedule” claims are stupid. There just isn’t a wide enough difference in opponents in the NFL to turn 5th into bad.
This is the claim of people who don’t like facts and prefer to whine.
 
I'm still confused by how we can't count on Rivers for anything (which is fair) because he's basically a rookie and hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season, which is why we should have drafted a rookie who hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.

Because usually BB can come away with a player who contributes with a 1st round pick.
 
Rivers has shown what? Nothing and.all the smoke and mirror guys have him as stud. Facts remain. Rivers is 1 year behind in development. He has not faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.

Brown is a disappointment and has not liked up to his billing.That is why Shelton is here. I have high hopes for him, but that's it.

The pass rush is still a huge question mark and its riding on Rivers and Clayborn
I would have to have seen a LB at 31 instead of Sony. You saw what happened after Hightower got hurt.
And what has the rookie you wish we had drafted shown? Nothing. You have no point here. Not when it comes to Rivers. You think Shelton is here to replace Brown? They play two different roles. That makes no sense. If anything, Shelton was brought in to replace Branch.
 
I'm kinda think last year's scoring defense stats are a weak argument. It would be worthy of a banner in Indy I know but after watching it in the SB, anyone thinking we don't need major improvements this year is wrong I think. Don't get me wrong, I like the picks. With a new tackle Michel will help take some pressure off Brady who MUST not get hurt if we have any kind of chance at all. I don't think our defense could make up for that even if it were the best in the league with the QBs available right now.
 
I'm still confused by how we can't count on Rivers for anything (which is fair) because he's basically a rookie and hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season, which is why we should have drafted a rookie who hasn't faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.

The post you were responding to was commenting on passing on a LB in the 1st in favor of a RB. Which is a solid complaint if one believes the LB group needs a noticeable upgrade.

The track record of Pats draft picks who miss their entire rookie season due to injury, like Rivers did, is terrible - with a decent sample size over Belichick's first 17 drafts (2000-2016). The overall success rate of mid-late 3rd round picks is quite poor league-wide and in terms of the Pats as well

Counting on Rivers for any contribution is very optimistic. Even without the injury, history tells us he was unlikely to be a quality player since the success rate is so low in the 3rd round.

Conversely, 1st round picks with no major medical issues do tend to contribute early both with the Pats and across the league. And while there certainly are 1st round flops, 1st round picks tend to turn out to be good players much more often than a mid-late 3rd rounders.

So on a 1st round defender for a RB can be seen as accepting that no big improvement is coming to the LB group. It is pretty much, hope Hightower is healthy and hope that one of the low probability guys blossoms into a quality player (Rivers, M.Flowers, Lee, E.Roberts).

I think the solution to the LB group might end up being another trade, like what the Pats did with Rowe. Pick up a #3 LB in August for a 3rd or 4th round pick.

The LB issues are real. And not addressing them in free agency or the draft is curious. There's still time to figure it out but it's understandable that fans are worried about it given how awful that unit is when Hightower is out.
 
So give us a list of all the teams that played such a frightening array of offenses all 16 weeks.
These “schedule” claims are stupid. There just isn’t a wide enough difference in opponents in the NFL to turn 5th into bad.
This is the claim of people who don’t like facts and prefer to whine.
I’m talking about last year in specific. No one was good on offense out of those 6.

We also played Denver and Tampa. So this equates to half of our schedule of pretty weak offenses.

The defense was able to perform very well against weaker offenses. But once it had to face a legitimate offense last year, it did not have the talent to compete.

That’s my point. The coaching was there, but the talent was just not there in the end.
 
And what has the rookie you wish we had drafted shown? Nothing. You have no point here. Not when it comes to Rivers. You think Shelton is here to replace Brown? They play two different roles. That makes no sense. If anything, Shelton was brought in to replace Branch.

Brown played some NT last year once it was apparent Branch was toast. I'd like to see Shelton on the nose and some combination of guys at the 3-technique. Brown is a rotation piece but not a quality starter. He doesn't offer the pass disruption you hope for at the 3 and he's not consistently stout enough in the run game to make up for his lack of pass rush. Maybe with Shelton drawing double teams he will be more effective.
 
The post you were responding to was commenting on passing on a LB in the 1st in favor of a RB. Which is a solid complaint if one believes the LB group needs a noticeable upgrade.

The track record of Pats draft picks who miss their entire rookie season due to injury, like Rivers did, is terrible - with a decent sample size over Belichick's first 17 drafts (2000-2016). The overall success rate of mid-late 3rd round picks is quite poor league-wide and in terms of the Pats as well

Counting on Rivers for any contribution is very optimistic. Even without the injury, history tells us he was unlikely to be a quality player since the success rate is so low in the 3rd round.

Conversely, 1st round picks with no major medical issues do tend to contribute early both with the Pats and across the league. And while there certainly are 1st round flops, 1st round picks tend to turn out to be good players much more often than a mid-late 3rd rounders.

So on a 1st round defender for a RB can be seen as accepting that no big improvement is coming to the LB group. It is pretty much, hope Hightower is healthy and hope that one of the low probability guys blossoms into a quality player (Rivers, M.Flowers, Lee, E.Roberts).

I think the solution to the LB group might end up being another trade, like what the Pats did with Rowe. Pick up a #3 LB in August for a 3rd or 4th round pick.

The LB issues are real. And not addressing them in free agency or the draft is curious. There's still time to figure it out but it's understandable that fans are worried about it given how awful that unit is when Hightower is out.

I understand the concern for the LB position but I also don't see a LB drafted in the top half of the 2nd round that would have been an obvious upgrade that makes the Sony Michel pick worthless. If Evans was there at pick #23 or #31 and we passed, then it's fair to debate whether it was a mistake. But saying we should have drafted a LB for no other reason than a player has LB listed for his position isn't a strong argument.
 
Rivers has shown what? Nothing and.all the smoke and mirror guys have him as stud. Facts remain. Rivers is 1 year behind in development. He has not faced the rigors of a 16 game NFL season.

Brown is a disappointment and has not liked up to his billing.That is why Shelton is here. I have high hopes for him, but that's it.

The pass rush is still a huge question mark and its riding on Rivers and Clayborn
I would have to have seen a LB at 31 instead of Sony. You saw what happened after Hightower got hurt.[/QUOT

I agree totally, all this trading out and back of rounds is stupid. You trade out a round then trade back in, come on just make the pick.. all this board value is overrated. If you like a player pick him.. Bill The GM stinks!!!
 
The secondary is already excellent and the Dukester and the Mcourty brother hasn't played a snap yet. This defense was abysmal in 2017. Good defenses do not disappear in crunch time. They were same lucky the Pitt TE juggled the ball. The Eagles went up and down the field on this defense.You can point out silver linings all you want but they were bad.

2017 NE defense ranked 31st pet Football Outsiders.

I am unimpressed by Football Outsiders DVOA, especially team defense and team offense. DVOA was created originally to compare players, and is completely predicated on drives. Drives are made up of yards. Unfortunately, the NFL does not award wins and losses based on yards.

The team DVOA is comparing team drives to a mythical average of the rest of the league drives. There is no such thing. The NFL is a complex system with outside factors that cannot be controlled - weather, injuries, contractual holdouts, trades, cuts, travel to London or Mexico, Goodell being a douchebag, whatever. What about travel and teams coming off of byes?

The DVOA weights late season games higher than early season games - that's good. The Patriots are an evolutionary team every year, especially on defense. Is there a weight given to games after you clinch the playoffs and start managing the number of snaps for starters? No. That would only benefit one or two teams and throw off the mythical average.

What's average? an 8-8 team? There were none in the AFC last year. Is an indoor team average or an outdoor team average? Do we care what average is on defense when the Pats "average" 30+ points per game and could care less about yards and more about possessions?

How is it possible that the Indianapolis Colts defense ranks higher than the Patriots defense when the Colts gave up 108 more points than the Patriots did?

DVOA penalizes teams with good special teams, particularly good returners, and outstanding kickers and punters. The Patriots dedicate more money and greater focus on special teams which means other teams start drives deeper in their own territory - an opportunity for more yards. The Patriots have excellent returners (Amendola and Edelman come to mind. ) The Patriots average better field position to start drives after kicks - less opportunity for offensive yards, hence a defensive advantage since they can't possibly give up as many yards over the course of a season.

The defensive DVOA somehow puts more weight on fumbles recovered than points allowed. Why is that? Because it's an individual statistic useful for comparing running backs. Not teams. Teams don't fumble. They put more weight on defenses that play indoors than outdoors. How can that be? Home teams on defense have a distinct noise advantage compared to visiting teams (see: Colts or Falcons.)

A sixty-yard TD drive in DVOA is better for the defensive ranking than an 80-yard drive the sputters at the 10-yard line and winds up with a FG or turning the ball over on downs. You win the DVOA and lose the game. Yay, team!

DVOA doesn't take into account the dependence on a no-huddle short passing game. They weight rushing stats heavier than they should. The Pats use a short passing game in place of a traditional rushing offense. When you have a player like Tom Brady, there is little incentive to take the ball out his hands. The Patriots have entire drives made up of no-huddle three and four yard passes to keep the chains moving and the opposing defense on the field. I guess that means the defense stopped the run.

I'm happy for the Jacksonville Jaguars who had the best DVOA defense in 2017. If memory serves, the Jaguars gave up more points to the Patriots than the Patriots did to them in the playoffs. The Jags, with the DVOA trophy, were doing the same thing you were doing on Super Bowl Sunday - sitting on their couches drinking beer wondering why Butler wasn't in the game.
 
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Oops

I saw “ Groundhog Day” and just assumed the thread was about the Patriots going to the Super Bowl yet again. It’s amazing that such a horrible GM has the best track record of any coach or GM in the history of the sport. Now I realize that you and Captain Stone would have done a much better job, but they could hardly have afforded you two geniuses.
 
Mayo retired at 29.

Why do players throw in the towel? Injuries just don't heal like they used towards 30.

Doesn’t change the fact that 28 is considered the prime of your career. Mayo was just unfortunate to receive a players death sentence with a gruesome knee injury.
 
It doesn’t matter if the patriots defense is good, bad top 5 or top 10

Stats mean nothing

Can it match up and get a stop when it needs it. In last years superbowl the answer was no. It wasn’t a championship defense
 
Lets see.

2017 Pats were # 1 passing, # 3 in rushing and # 3 at Special teams.

Might the problem be NEs 31 ranked defense? Nah, they were 5 in some meaningless stat that makes some people all warm and fuzzy.

They gave up
42 KC
33 Houston
33 Carolina
27 Miami
24 Pittsburgh
41 Philadelphia

NE narrowly beat Houston, lost to Carolina, escaped Pittsburgh with a win because of a dropped TD pass. Dodged NYJ because of a dropped TD pass.

31 Pittsburgh
24 NY

No lead was safe unless it was vs a bad team. Jacksonville moved the ball on NE and gave the Pats all they could handle.
 
It doesn’t matter if the patriots defense is good, bad top 5 or top 10

Stats mean nothing

Can it match up and get a stop when it needs it. In last years superbowl the answer was no. It wasn’t a championship defense

You just need more kool acid.

Its all good
 
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