Gronk. Sign the beast.

[Wozzy]

I feel like neither has produced very much on the field.

Neither played very much on a rebuilding/developmental team with a terrible QB in 2020... probably the worst starting QB in the NFL.

In 2021 Asiasi was sitting behind one of the better TE's duos in the league this season, and Keene acquired the Foxboro flu.

Not much opportunity to play, or play well in either case and at one of the hardest positions in the league for rookies.

We'll see what they do going forward, but calling them "abject failures" or "busts" is shortsighted.

Darren Waller did nothing for the first three years of his career, now he's the most dangerous receiving TE in the league.

 

[Wozzy]

This is one of your worst takes ever.

You ask "how did Asiasi fail?" then you say "he was never going to play." If he's not worthy of taking the field then the draft pick is a failure.

Keene has been injured, inactive or useless. He has 3 games with 1 catch for <10 yards. How do you define failure?

And Smith was not one part of the best TE duos in the league. Henry had a good season. Smith hasn't been this bad since his rookie season and he had the lowest snap count of his career (51%).


What's your point? If his age was such a liability then it's just another reason why the pick sucked. According to you the team is all set at TE with Henry and Smith so Asiasi and Keene will remain irrelevant anyway.

Belichick effectively admitted he drafted two stiffs by immediately signing the two best TE's available through free agency.


Mitchell didn't make it past one year in the NFL, which was no surprise at all given his extensive injury history heading into the '16 draft. In the end the draft pick clearly didn't work out. Belichick's history of drafting WR's is undeniably bad.


I said the '20 draft was an abject failure. I didn't say the '21 season was an abject failure. The playoff appearance that you're so high on was an abject failure though.


There's little doubt these drafts have yielded measly returns.

2020
Kyle Dugger (2nd Rd) – Good.
Josh Uche (2nd Rd) – Can't crack 33% of snaps and did nothing for the last 14 weeks of this season.
Anfernee Jennings (3rd Rd) – Actually managed a slightly higher snap count than Uche in '20 but did nothing with the opportunity.
Devin Asiasi (3rd Rd) – He was inactive for every game but one this season and he hardly saw the field. He was thoroughly unimpressive in limited playing time in '20.
Dalton Keene (3rd Rd) – Useless or injured so far. Irrelevant moving forward.
Justin Rohrwasser (5th Rd) – A punter in the 5th round?? What a major f*** up.
Michael Onwenu (6th Rd) – Middling at best.
Justin Herron (6th Rd) – A liability anytime he's seen action.
Cassh Maluia (7th Rd) – Not on the team.
Dustin Woodward (7th Rd) – see above

2019
N'Keal Harry (1st Rd) – Further evidence Belichick doesn't know WR talent at all. The list of NFL-caliber WR's that got drafted after Harry is mind-blowing.
Joejuan Williams (2nd Rd) – The list of DB bums drafted by Belichick over the last decade in the 1st or 2nd round is quite impressive.
Chase Winovich (3rd Rd) – Total nonfactor this season.
Damien Harris (3rd Rd) – Good.
Yodny Cajuste (3rd Rd) – useless
Hjalte Froholdt (4th Rd) – useless
Jarrett Stidham (4th Rd) – useless
Byron Cowart (5th Rd) – Who??
Jake Bailey (5th Rd) – Oh great another STer in the 5th round… whatever he's a good punter.
Ken Webster (7th Rd) – Not on the team.

2018
9 players selected, 7 either never saw an NFL snap, no longer play in the NFL, or play for another team. Which leaves Isaiah Wynn, who is not good, and Ja'Whaun Bentley, who was the original 3rd pick of all 29 that I considered good (unless he's in coverage). I'm reluctantly adding Bailey, a punter.

So, 3 drafts, 29 players, and this is what you got… 1 DB, 1 LB, 1 RB and a punter. The remaining 25 players are not making meaningful contributions to the team. The collective grade on this mess can't be any higher than a D-.

During the championship run from 2014-2019 the Patriots were one of the oldest teams in the league, now they're slowly morphing into one of the younger teams in the league. This is because vet players know how to win, young players have to learn how to win.

Mike Vrabel didn't start a single game the first four years of his career, he played almost entirely on special teams. BB grabbed him in free agency and he became a three time champion, a Pro Bowler, an All Pro... did he suck during the first four years or was he learning his craft. Check out Edelman's first four years, or Troy Brown's... this idea that players explode out of the gate as rookies otherwise they suck is typical millennial nonsense and/or entitled Patriot fan malaise.

And yeah, the playoffs this year were an abject failure... meanwhile Browns won a playoff game for the first time since BB was their coach back in 94'...23 years later... and the Eagles went 48 years in between championships.... boo hoo for you. Imagine having to wait for a cake to be fully cooked before eating it. I suspect you stomp your feet and whine when you have to wait for your McNuggets to finish cooking at McDonalds.

 

[italian pat patriot]

Russ Francis...Sign the beast

 

[NormZauchin]

Russ Francis...Sign the beast

Yeah, if we want a really good three tight end offense, why not Francis, Coates, and Gronk? Unstoppable.

 

[venecol]

So “all accounts” are vague rumors?
Seriously if Brady met with the 49ers, which has never been confirmed and wanted to go there, do you seriously think his interview would be busting the coaches balls? And if shanahan really wanted him do you think he would say no because Brady said mean things?
These are professional grown men not 12 year old girls.

Only known accounts are that Brady went through Welker to reach out to 9ers and word came back they passed.

Spot on the 12 yo girls.

 

[venecol]

Guy that complains about others wasting time, literally wastes time littering the threads with idiotic memes. LMAO

 

[Zuma]

Neither played very much on a rebuilding/developmental team with a terrible QB in 2020... probably the worst starting QB in the NFL.

In 2021 Asiasi was sitting behind one of the better TE's duos in the league this season, and Keene acquired the Foxboro flu.

Not much opportunity to play, or play well in either case and at one of the hardest positions in the league for rookies.

We'll see what they do going forward, but calling them "abject failures" or "busts" is shortsighted.

Darren Waller did nothing for the first three years of his career, now he's the most dangerous receiving TE in the league.

Do you think they will be productive in 2022 and if so why?

 

[Tunescribe]

Guy that complains about others wasting time, literally wastes time littering the threads with idiotic memes. LMAO

LMAO! LMAO! That meme isn't idiotic, it's an accurate account of your retired hero.

 

[50-yard-line]

Do you think they will be productive in 2022 and if so why?

Keene might have a role if they let Jakob Johnson go.

I'd love to see more of Asiasi - similar to the Ravens' Offense a couple of years ago. But with no real OC, I doubt it.

 

[Ring 6]

Keene might have a role if they let Jakob Johnson go.

I'd love to see more of Asiasi - similar to the Ravens' Offense a couple of years ago. But with no real OC, I doubt it.

Every function that a “real OC” would have will still be handled whether one is named or not.

 

[Wozzy]

Do you think they will be productive in 2022 and if so why?

I never give guarantees on rookies, the large majority of them fail. The average NFL career lasts three years. But I liked these two coming out of college, they have the talent and athleticism to succeed.

With that being said, unless Henry or Jonnu get hurt they aren't going to play much unless the team doesn't bring back Jakob Johnson and they roll with 4 TE's instead of 3 TE's and a FB. They did this prior to prior to James Develin's acquisition and Aaron Hernandez doubled as a FB. Jonnu and Asiasi have a similar frame and could do the same, but I think they like Jakob and may bring him back.

Some young players are simply waiting on an opportunity, it's not that they suck. Edelman sat behind Moss, Welker and Deion Branch for his first four years, they had to get targets to Gronk and Hernandez also... no matter how good of a prospect they thought Jules was, you're not pulling those ^ guys off the field to put the kid in. That's not how it works.

 

[libra957]

Lol I think it's time we let that gronk era go.

 

[crawhammer]

During the championship run from 2014-2019 the Patriots were one of the oldest teams in the league, now they're slowly morphing into one of the younger teams in the league. This is because vet players know how to win, young players have to learn how to win.

Mike Vrabel didn't start a single game the first four years of his career, he played almost entirely on special teams. BB grabbed him in free agency and he became a three time champion, a Pro Bowler, an All Pro... did he suck during the first four years or was he learning his craft. Check out Edelman's first four years, or Troy Brown's... this idea that players explode out of the gate as rookies otherwise they suck is typical millennial nonsense and/or entitled Patriot fan malaise.

And yeah, the playoffs this year were an abject failure... meanwhile Browns won a playoff game for the first time since BB was their coach back in 94'...23 years later... and the Eagles went 48 years in between championships.... boo hoo for you. Imagine having to wait for a cake to be fully cooked before eating it. I suspect you stomp your feet and whine when you have to wait for your McNuggets to finish cooking at McDonalds.

"Young players have to learn how to win"... you mean like Brady winning SB championships in 3 of his first 4 seasons as a starter. Oh wait, that's the opposite. Brady has this way of proving everything you say wrong. No wonder you hate him so much.

The rest of your nonsense doesn't address Belichick drafting like a guy who's never watched a football game.

 

[ashley]

The rest of your nonsense doesn't address Belichick drafting like a guy who's never watched a football game.

Stop with the Brady vs BB theme. You're starting your old schtick again and if you haven't forgot, you were warned and are on a short leash here.

 

[ashley]

Do you think they will be productive in 2022 and if so why?

Yes, I believe in my binkie Asaiasi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My two binkies (Asaiasi and Uche) didn' t have the best of years!!! I hope it's not "Ashley's curse"....I'm hoping for a bounce back year from both.

 

[venecol]

Stop with the Brady vs BB theme. You're starting your old schtick again and if you haven't forgot, you were warned and are on a short leash here.

I have a few questions:

1. There's been several threads started by Team Bill posters that went to the Brady vs BB theme. Will those posters be warned to stop this theme or be threatened with a ban?

2. Throughout several threads, there are many posters that denigrate Brady's impact on the winning ways during the dynasty. Many posters believe Bill was the main reason for the wins. Many others believe that it was having Brady at QB that led to the team's success (history actually proves this). I only see the pro Brady posters being admonished. The pro Bill or worse anti-Brady posters get a 100% pass. So, is it the operating procedure of Patsfans.com to squash these discussions only when it comes from pro Brady posters? Or will we see a more balanced response where anti-Brady posters also get admonished and warned?

3. Is having a football discussion on a football forum specifically about the team's "greatest player in NFL history" impact on the success of the franchise versus that of it's HC a violation of the forum rules? If so, can we have @Ian please update the forum rules so we all are aware of these changes?

4. Is any form of criticism of Bill Belichick's actions as either a HC (i.e., not going for it on 4th or benching Butler) or GM (poor drafts or letting Brady walk) not allowed? If so, please instruct us on what is allowed and who is allowed to make that criticism.

5. Is open questioning of a posters fandom of the Patriots allowed simply because they choose to support a former player's success beyond his time with the Patriots?

6. Is open and blatant trolling allowed as long as the troll is a long standing member of the forum and a member of the Team Bill clique?

7. How do a group of posters that are pro-Brady get their voices heard? Do they have to form a private DM group where they can strategize on which poster to target for banning, or coordinate multiple reports and complaints against a targeted poster? Sounds awfully boring, but if that's what it takes to get attention then please advice.

My suggestion, as long as discussions are civil, fact based, they should be allowed regardless of who's having them or who's agenda they support, and of course, they don't violate forum rules.

Again Ash, I appreciate the clarification to my questions. I'm just a simple man, and get easily confused with all the goings on here at y'alls forum.

 

[crawhammer]

Stop with the Brady vs BB theme. You're starting your old schtick again and if you haven't forgot, you were warned and are on a short leash here.

Well that's were you are wrong. It's not a schtick, it's my genuine opinions which, if I'm presenting them in a civilized manner, shouldn't be censored.

You can throw me overboard but it's not going to end the Brady vs Belichick debates, which will be around much longer than you or me.

You don't want to hear my opinions on Belichick anymore than my opinions on Asiasi because you don't like them.

All that said, you're the one with the finger on the button, and I'm not looking to get ejected, so I'll bow down to your warning.

 

[ashley]

I have a few questions: Please see answers below:

1. There's been several threads started by Team Bill posters that went to the Brady vs BB theme. Will those posters be warned to stop this theme or be threatened with a ban? I'm trying to get away from the BB vs TB debate.....I think most of us are tired of it....but to answer your question, typically, if a poster is praising BB or TB, it will be left. It's when a poster who is known for trolling and has nothing else to offer to this forum other than bashing on one of the two, then yes.

2. Throughout several threads, there are many posters that denigrate Brady's impact on the winning ways during the dynasty. Many posters believe Bill was the main reason for the wins. Many others believe that it was having Brady at QB that led to the team's success (history actually proves this). I only see the pro Brady posters being admonished. The pro Bill or worse anti-Brady posters get a 100% pass. So, is it the operating procedure of Patsfans.com to squash these discussions only when it comes from pro Brady posters? Or will we see a more balanced response where anti-Brady posters also get admonished and warned? I think the fact that anyone would diminish either one's accomplishments is absurd. They are both all time greats. I see it more with BB than TB, but the one time I saw a poster say Matthew Stafford was better than TB,he was gone. An example of trolling at it's best.

3. Is having a football discussion on a football forum specifically about the team's "greatest player in NFL history" impact on the success of the franchise versus that of it's HC a violation of the forum rules? No, not a violation, but when a particular poster always bashes BB and doesn't bring any other value, they will be called out.

4. Is any form of criticism of Bill Belichick's actions as either a HC (i.e., not going for it on 4th or benching Butler) or GM (poor drafts or letting Brady walk) not allowed? If so, please instruct us on what is allowed and who is allowed to make that criticism. Not at all, he has been bashed by posters including myself when warranted, last time for me was when he went for the fg against TB instead of going for the 1st down.

5. Is open questioning of a posters fandom of the Patriots allowed simply because they choose to support a former player's success beyond his time with the Patriots? Nope, but personally I always wonder what's more important the player or the team, for myself, it's always team first.

6. Is open and blatant trolling allowed as long as the troll is a long standing member of the forum and a member of the Team Bill clique? I try to keep this a no troll zone.

7. How do a group of posters that are pro-Brady get their voices heard? Do they have to form a private DM group where they can strategize on which poster to target for banning, or coordinate multiple reports and complaints against a targeted poster? Sounds awfully boring, but if that's what it takes to get attention then please advice. I think most posters on here are pro Brady....but in being pro Brady doesn't mean someone has to be anti bill, does it?

My suggestion, as long as discussions are civil, fact based, they should be allowed regardless of who's having them or who's agenda they support, and of course, they don't violate forum rules. I think everyone on here is about civil discussions...I am all for it. I hope I answered all your questions.

Again Ash, I appreciate the clarification to my questions. I'm just a simple man, and get easily confused with all the goings on here at y'alls forum. Thanks!!!!

 

[Ian]

Yeah, we don't need to rehash this again, although I'm not saying we can't talk about it. If anyone wants to beat their heads against the wall, I guess you can, but at the end of the day, it's not going to accomplish anything.

I think most people probably agree, there's probably no Brady without Bill. And when I say "no Brady", I mean his overall legacy and record, at least not without this foundation. Belichick instilled a lot of knowledge and discipline in him and at the same time, Brady had the desire and determination to do what he needed to do to become the best. He also had arguably one of the best organizations in football from top-to-bottom supporting him.

From there, Brady had to make the conscious decision to put the team ahead of himself by taking less money, putting winning, and building his legacy above all else. Meanwhile, Belichick had to coach up the entire roster and Brady helped solidify the mindset because when you see a guy like him working hard and succeeding, it sets a foundation where other guys need to either follow or they look ridiculous for going against the grain when everyone else is swimming in the same direction. I get that it was probably used against him and we've heard on more than one occasion it was also used against other players, but it still happened.

Think of it this way, would Brady have done this in Cincinnati under Marvin Lewis? Let's be honest about that one. Maybe Lewis gets lucky and they get one ring, but they don't get a sustained run of greatness or win six titles. We saw them fall apart in critical moments due to undisciplined players (which starts at the top), so we know what that's like. Worse yet, maybe they don't build a good enough roster and they get Brady killed or his career shortened. There are so many variables and "what ifs" ... we could go on forever.

At the same time, there's no Belichick without Brady. Brady took what he learned but he still had to go out there and do it. If he had fallen back to earth and became a mediocre player, Belichick likely would have gotten crucified for getting rid of Bledsoe and Brady could have turned into just another guy. They could have had a couple of losing seasons and he might have been fired. Think of all the QBs they drafted in the early years fairly high to "motivate" Brady. It's not like somebody else could have gone out there and won 10+ games every year, let alone a title.

I tend to use the analogy of think of a really good teacher who taught you how to do something that you went on to become really good at because they were just an awesome teacher. They taught you all the little tips/tricks and nuances that helped you get there. At the same time, you still had to practice and put in the work, but if they didn't teach you the little things, maybe you're not as good at it?

It's probably the biggest chicken/egg discussion in sports. Now, I've said this before, I'm on the team of people who believe they should have kept Brady "until he sucked", or at least I definitely was at the time. Everyone knows they could have made it work as long as they wanted to, provided they were eventually OK with dealing with a year or so of misery (like 2020). People argue the financial aspect, but it's not true. They would have just kicked the can down the line just like they did until they eventually decided not to. But I also don't think it was fair to put him in a year-to-year situation the way they did, and that's on Belichick but at the same time, they essentially sacrificed what became only two years.

And like I said, it became a nice distraction for us in January while the team was in transition. And it was better for Brady, who silenced all the people who love Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes by winning another title elsewhere.

But moving back to the original argument, you can debate both sides and no one is going to get banned over it (obviously). We just don't need what gradually becomes multiple threads making the same points. I would say that's about the only time that it ever really becomes an issue.

Also, you only get banned or kicked out here for being extremely disruptive or just flat-out being a jerk. I don't like doing it and it's extremely rare, so it's not like that's actually a thing. Otherwise, very little gets deleted in here, aside from some verbal sniping that obviously occurs from time to time. I do think there's no point in bashing another fan for still being a big fan of the guy who was here for 20-years. I still rooted for Brady and kept an eye on him all year. Most of us have done that with quite a few players. Once they play for this team, they're forever one of ours regardless of who they play for. I can't think of anyone who has left that I started hating...I'd have to think about that one.

I feel like most of you guys have known me for what, almost two decades? This place isn't that hardcore. All we want is for people not to go overboard with arguments and flood our inboxes over ridiculous disagreements. We're all adults and it's just a football board. The older I get and the more I see, I'm just trying to enjoy this ride with all of you guys however long it lasts. The rest is just noise

 

[Ian]

And for the record, I've said it before, the second Brady forum was just to separate the discussion out so people could talk about Brady, the Bucs, etc. on a separate board to make things easier instead of a mega thread in the main forum. Mixing the two teams in the main board would have just made things hard to follow and adding the other forum was certainly easy enough.

That being said, if he stays retired, I'll eventually just close it and we'll do all that in here. Last I checked, the Packers site still talks about Favre, the Cowboys site still talks about Aikman, the 49ers site still talks about Joe Montana and Steve Young (that was pretty polarizing in and of itself back in the day on that board), so I'm pretty sure allowing people to talk about Brady in here when he's officially done and doesn't end up out in the Bay Area next year shouldn't be that strange.

After all - everybody is going to be happy when he goes in wearing a red jacket. He's a Patriot forever, it just is what it is