Grid's Gratuitously Grisly Grades!!

[ctpatsfan77]

(Will Yeatman, Zac Robinson, Lee Smith, Ted Larsen, Thomas Welch, etc.).

As a minor point, Zac Robinson doesn't belong on this list: he wasn't claimed off waivers, and signed with Seattle(?)'s practice squad.

Wes Welker and Danny Woodhead were signed by other teams as UDFAs,

IIRC, the Pats had looked at Welker in 2004, but didn't go after him b/c of Troy Brown. . . .

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Maybock just said that he would have hated the Patriots draft but for the first round. Can't disagree there; a panic reach in the second and bad trade down. The trade down was a bad value but BB made some interesting picks with them.

 

[patfanken]

To OTG in particular and the other participants in general, I'd like your opinion on this hypothesis.

Which would you rather have.

1. BB stayed the course and after Jones and Hightower, and kept his draft positions at 48 and 62 and drafted Kendall Reyes and Trumaine Johnson (as a hybrid FS/CB option)

2. OR making the bad value trades and winding up with Wilson, Bequette, and Denard, plus 2 interesting future PS players

3. So the question is which would be better Reyes/Johnson, or Wilson/Bequette/Dennard

My initial reaction was to say #1 in a heart beat, It addresses the DE/DT issue that this draft missed as well as getting a quality FS/CB hybrid. But getting Bequette and Denard, are good pickups that we wouldn't have if we went with #1, plus Wilson has just a good a shot at being as good a FS as Johnson does. And who knows what Ebert and Ebner end up being a few years from now.

The second option would be this for after the first round

Taking Reyes at 42, making the same 2 trades and winding up with

Reyes, Bequette, Josh Bush Dennard, and Ebert

So right now I'm kind of muddled on which would have been better. How about you.

 

[Off The Grid]

My point, OTG, is it appears that you moved the JEST up for their UDFA haul, but didn't seem to take it into account for other teams.

Very good.

Response: I actually took everything into account, my friend.

Every last player.

I only highlighted those Picks ~ or UFA's ~ which in my opinion were noteworthy.

Only an handfull of teams picked up UFA's which ~ in my opinion ~ were remarkable.

You assumed, my friend...and you assumed incorrectly.

 

[Off The Grid]

To OTG in particular and the other participants in general, I'd like your opinion on this hypothesis.

Which would you rather have.

1. BB stayed the course and after Jones and Hightower, and kept his draft positions at 48 and 62 and drafted Kendall Reyes and Trumaine Johnson (as a hybrid FS/CB option)

2. OR making the bad value trades and winding up with Wilson, Bequette, and Denard, plus 2 interesting future PS players

3. So the question is which would be better Reyes/Johnson, or Wilson/Bequette/Dennard

My initial reaction was to say #1 in a heart beat, It addresses the DE/DT issue that this draft missed as well as getting a quality FS/CB hybrid. But getting Bequette and Denard, are good pickups that we wouldn't have if we went with #1, plus Wilson has just a good a shot at being as good a FS as Johnson does. And who knows what Ebert and Ebner end up being a few years from now.

The second option would be this for after the first round

Taking Reyes at 42, making the same 2 trades and winding up with

Reyes, Bequette, Josh Bush Dennard, and Ebert

So right now I'm kind of muddled on which would have been better. How about you.

Well, it's an interesting proposition...

I wouldn't've done EITHER, obviously.

I would've either taken MF LaVonte David at #48 and CB Trumaine Johnson at #62, and gone home...

Or I would've traded #48 to Green Bay for #59 and #123 ~ which is what they gave up for #51 ~ and probably snagged #163, too, so the Pack could get ahead of the Bolts...

And then I would've traded #59 to Denver for #87 and #120 ~ which is what they gave up for #67 ~ and probably snagged #188, as well...

I then would've traded #163 back to Green Bay, as we did, for #197, #224, and #235.

That would've given us the following Picks:

#062 ~ CB Trumaine Johnson
#087 ~ EL Jake Bequette
#120 ~ CB Josh Norman
#123 ~ OG Senio Kelemete
#188 ~ OT Nick Mondek
#197 ~ XB Michael Smith
#224 ~ SE Dale Moss
#235 ~ QB Kellen Moore

SCHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

 

[mayoclinic]

To OTG in particular and the other participants in general, I'd like your opinion on this hypothesis.

Which would you rather have.

1. BB stayed the course and after Jones and Hightower, and kept his draft positions at 48 and 62 and drafted Kendall Reyes and Trumaine Johnson (as a hybrid FS/CB option)

2. OR making the bad value trades and winding up with Wilson, Bequette, and Denard, plus 2 interesting future PS players

3. So the question is which would be better Reyes/Johnson, or Wilson/Bequette/Dennard

My initial reaction was to say #1 in a heart beat, It addresses the DE/DT issue that this draft missed as well as getting a quality FS/CB hybrid. But getting Bequette and Denard, are good pickups that we wouldn't have if we went with #1, plus Wilson has just a good a shot at being as good a FS as Johnson does. And who knows what Ebert and Ebner end up being a few years from now.

The second option would be this for after the first round

Taking Reyes at 42, making the same 2 trades and winding up with

Reyes, Bequette, Josh Bush Dennard, and Ebert

So right now I'm kind of muddled on which would have been better. How about you.

"Which would have been better" depends entirely on your particular valuation of players. That's going to vary tremendously on this board, and none of our opinions count. But for me, I didn't like Kendall Reyes at all for the Pats, so I wouldn't touch your first scenario with a 10 foot pole. You obviously did. I liked Trumaine Johnson and would have been thrilled with him at 62, but BB obviously preferred Wilson. We don't know whether that was due to Johnson's character issues, reported selfishness, level of college competition, or lack of actual experience playing FS as well as CB - all things that Wilson had in his favor in comparison with Johnson. But we do know that BB explicitly passed up OTG's scenario of taking Lavonte David at 48 and then the best available CB/S candidate at 62. That would have been my preference, but it wasn't BB's.

 

[patfanken]

Well, it's an interesting proposition...

I wouldn't've done EITHER, obviously.

I would've either taken MF LaVonte David at #48 and CB Trumaine Johnson at #62, and gone home...

Or I would've traded #48 to Green Bay for #59 and #123 ~ which is what they gave up for #51 ~ and probably snagged #163, too, so the Pack could get ahead of the Bolts...

And then I would've traded #59 to Denver for #87 and #120 ~ which is what they gave up for #67 ~ and probably snagged #188, as well...

I then would've traded #163 back to Green Bay, as we did, for #197, #224, and #235.

That would've given us the following Picks:

#062 ~ CB Trumaine Johnson
#087 ~ EL Jake Bequette
#120 ~ CB Josh Norman
#123 ~ OG Senio Kelemete
#188 ~ OT Nick Mondek
#197 ~ XB Michael Smith
#224 ~ SE Dale Moss
#235 ~ QB Kellen Moore

SCHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

That is a pretty sweet outcome, my friend, however come September how does all that young talent fit on the 53 man roster???

Also noticed you decided to pass on Dennard who you could have had at 224, then picked Moss up at 235, and signed Moore as an UDFA. Why pass on Dennard. I thought you liked that pick?

 

[everlong]

Yes, I'm sure Mel Kiper would agree with both of you.

So invoking the name of the Anti-Draftnik makes you right?

 

[everlong]

The Bengals drafted a lot of players with name recognition. But there was some questionable decision making:

1. The Bengals made a choice to trade back from 21 to 27 with the Pats when David DeCastro was on the board. This netted them the #93 pick and DT Brandon Thomson, but it lost them the chance to add David DeCastro when OG was a major need - and they took OG Kevin Zeitler at 27. Zeitler is a solid prospect with a nice floor, but personally I don't think he's at DeCastro's level. And by passing on DeCastro the Bengals let him fall right into the lap of their division rival the Steelers, where he will immensely upgrade the OL next to Maurkice Pouncey. So that is a major area where it will be interesting to see down the road whether their decision making traded off or not. If Zeitler turns out to be close to as good as DeCastro and Thompson is a major player at DT then it's a great move. But if the Bengals passed on a perennial all-pro in favor of a solid guard and a decent DT then it's a poor one.

2. The Bengals picked up several guys with questionable motors and work ethics. Devon Still at 51 and UDFA Vontaze Burfict in particular are guys with some major questions, and given the Bengal's history that may not work too well.

Overall, the Bengals seemed more focused on acquiring talent than on building a team. But they did acquire some major talent. I personally like the Marvin Jones and George Iloka picks in the 5th round, both solid values.

If the Pats picked up Kirkpatrick everybody would be calling it a steal and that his character issues were off the field but that by all accounts he's a great teammate. I would not have been disappointed had the Pats landed him.

I'm not huge on Zeitler but Zeitler + Thompson in the Bengals defense could prove to be a better value than Decastro who I agree will be a stud.

Still was a solid value at 51 and falling that far might motivate him. I never saw him as a first round value but most people had him there and were saying the Pats should take him at 27/31.

Love Sanu in the 3rd and he complement Green perfectly.

Already discussed Thompson who I think has a great upside.

Orson Charles is an Aaron Hernandez type of pick. Huge value and given the round low risk. If his head is on straight he could prove to be better than Fleener or Allen. If we didn't have our current TE position set the way it is and BB made this pick everybody would love it.

I love their 5th round. Prater and Iloka should be solid starters by year two and I wanted the Pats to draft Jones who projected higher in my mind.

Burfict was a UDFA so if he comes into camp and is a bum who cares? I love the Denard pick in the 7th for the same reason. High ceiling no risk.

They certainly did acquire talent and I'm not a huge fan of Still but their draft can be pretty successful even if DeCastro is a stud and Zeitler is just average.

 

[mayoclinic]

If the Pats picked up Kirkpatrick everybody would be calling it a steal and that his character issues were off the field but that by all accounts he's a great teammate. I would not have been disappointed had the Pats landed him.

I'm not huge on Zeitler but Zeitler + Thompson in the Bengals defense could prove to be a better value than Decastro who I agree will be a stud.

Still was a solid value at 51 and falling that far might motivate him. I never saw him as a first round value but most people had him there and were saying the Pats should take him at 27/31.

Love Sanu in the 3rd and he complement Green perfectly.

Already discussed Thompson who I think has a great upside.

Orson Charles is an Aaron Hernandez type of pick. Huge value and given the round low risk. If his head is on straight he could prove to be better than Fleener or Allen. If we didn't have our current TE position set the way it is and BB made this pick everybody would love it.

I love their 5th round. Prater and Iloka should be solid starters by year two and I wanted the Pats to draft Jones who projected higher in my mind.

Burfict was a UDFA so if he comes into camp and is a bum who cares? I love the Denard pick in the 7th for the same reason. High ceiling no risk.

They certainly did acquire talent and I'm not a huge fan of Still but their draft can be pretty successful even if DeCastro is a stud and Zeitler is just average.

No major disagreement. I didn't say their draft was a bust, and I didn't mention the Kirkpatrick pick. I said that they certainly acquired talent. All things considered, they probably had a very successful draft. But at the same time, a lot of people have been raving about their draft as the best one out of all teams for 2012, and I think that's questionable. The Zeitler pick was a bit of a reach and passing on DeCastro could come back to haunt them. We won't know for a few years. And the Still pick and decision to add Burfict are questionable given some of the character issues the team has had in the past. That's enough for me to question whether their draft was quite as good as many people claim.

 

[everlong]

No major disagreement. I didn't say their draft was a bust, and I didn't mention the Kirkpatrick pick. I said that they certainly acquired talent. All things considered, they probably had a very successful draft. But at the same time, a lot of people have been raving about their draft as the best one out of all teams for 2012, and I think that's questionable. The Zeitler pick was a bit of a reach and passing on DeCastro could come back to haunt them. We won't know for a few years. And the Still pick and decision to add Burfict are questionable given some of the character issues the team has had in the past. That's enough for me to question whether their draft was quite as good as many people claim.

No we're not that far off in our assessments. Where both yourself and OTG disagreed with myself and Rook I just wanted to spell out my case. For me Kirkpatrick, Sanu, Charles, Thompson, Prater and Iloka is a great draft in itself. Still and Burfict we'll see. I think Zeitler was a reach but should be solid.

Also........this being the copy cat league that it is. You throw Green and Sanu outside and put Jones in the slot. Then you have Gresham and Charles as your TEs. That's a pretty damn impressive spread. Put Lawfrim back there with the two TE set and they can run playaction and the defense has to pick it's poison.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Bungals had a great draft IMO.

 

[JackBauer]

Can't say I agree with your assessment of the Patriots' draft. Even if you deduct points for a reach on Wilson, that doesn't devalue it to a B-, IMO.

And the Bengals had a typical Bengals draft. A bunch of names everyone knows, so snap judgments are positive as they usually are, even though their drafts are generally pretty poor in the long run. We shall see if this year's follows the same pattern.

 

[captain stone]

Well, it's an interesting proposition...

I wouldn't've done EITHER, obviously.

I would've either taken MF LaVonte David at #48 and CB Trumaine Johnson at #62, and gone home...

Or I would've traded #48 to Green Bay for #59 and #123 ~ which is what they gave up for #51 ~ and probably snagged #163, too, so the Pack could get ahead of the Bolts...

And then I would've traded #59 to Denver for #87 and #120 ~ which is what they gave up for #67 ~ and probably snagged #188, as well...

I then would've traded #163 back to Green Bay, as we did, for #197, #224, and #235.

That would've given us the following Picks:

#062 ~ CB Trumaine Johnson
#087 ~ EL Jake Bequette
#120 ~ CB Josh Norman
#123 ~ OG Senio Kelemete
#188 ~ OT Nick Mondek
#197 ~ XB Michael Smith
#224 ~ SE Dale Moss
#235 ~ QB Kellen Moore

SCHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

What would you have thought if Bill had made this an all-defense draft by using 197
on DE/DT Billy Winn, and 235 on DE/OLB Cam Johnson?

 

[rookBoston]

The Bengals drafted a lot of players with name recognition. But there was some questionable decision making:

1. The Bengals made a choice to trade back from 21 to 27 with the Pats when David DeCastro was on the board. This netted them the #93 pick and DT Brandon Thomson, but it lost them the chance to add David DeCastro when OG was a major need - and they took OG Kevin Zeitler at 27. Zeitler is a solid prospect with a nice floor, but personally I don't think he's at DeCastro's level. And by passing on DeCastro the Bengals let him fall right into the lap of their division rival the Steelers, where he will immensely upgrade the OL next to Maurkice Pouncey. So that is a major area where it will be interesting to see down the road whether their decision making traded off or not. If Zeitler turns out to be close to as good as DeCastro and Thompson is a major player at DT then it's a great move. But if the Bengals passed on a perennial all-pro in favor of a solid guard and a decent DT then it's a poor one.

2. The Bengals picked up several guys with questionable motors and work ethics. Devon Still at 51 and UDFA Vontaze Burfict in particular are guys with some major questions, and given the Bengal's history that may not work too well.

Overall, the Bengals seemed more focused on acquiring talent than on building a team. But they did acquire some major talent. I personally like the Marvin Jones and George Iloka picks in the 5th round, both solid values.

I had a late first round grade on Zeitler, and absolutely loved his film. In fact, I had Zeitler higher than Konz. Zeitler was on my draft card as a possibility for the Pats at 31, especially if Waters retires. There may or may not be a material dropoff between DeCastro and Zeitler. But however you see that, I don't agree that DeCastro > Zeitler + Thompson. I wanted the Pats to take either Still or Thompson at 48... so for the Bengals to get all three of them at great value positions was pretty impressive.

Devon Still is not a question mark in my book. Please clarify! He's a lean 300#er, space eater, captain of his team and an articulate, mature individual. Would have been a solid 34 DE for us, or 43 DT. I really don't know what you think the major questions are with him. He's an upstanding, hardworking kid who led his team through a really tough season at Penn State, with all the Sandusky stuff in the press. I think he could have gone anywhere between 25 and 40... and they got him at 53. Kudos.

Vontaze Burfict doesn't come into calculation for me. That kid is a complete waste of time. Would have been better with the Jets or Raideres. But I wont knock any team for signing whoever they can as an UDFA.

 

[patchick]

I liked Trumaine Johnson and would have been thrilled with him at 62, but BB obviously preferred Wilson. We don't know whether that was due to Johnson's character issues, reported selfishness, level of college competition, or lack of actual experience playing FS as well as CB - all things that Wilson had in his favor in comparison with Johnson.

Trumaine Johnson was pretty clearly the favorite FS prospect among Pats fans, and with good reason. But I think the character issues with him tended to be under-reported, because they weren't so much about big incidents (despite an arrest) as about him being a difficult personality who has to be "managed," "kept focused," and "held accountable."

Given the Pats' focus on captains and leaders, and the particular need for a steady leader at safety, I can't really regret passing on Johnson. So to answer Ken's question, while I did like Reyes I'll gladly take Bequette, Dennard, and the safety of BB's choice + a couple of Ohio Eb-boys over Reyes and Johnson.

 

[ZoisKing]

Trumaine Johnson was pretty clearly the favorite FS prospect among Pats fans, and with good reason. But I think the character issues with him tended to be under-reported, because they weren't so much about big incidents (despite an arrest) as about him being a difficult personality who has to be "managed," "kept focused," and "held accountable."

Given the Pats' focus on captains and leaders, and the particular need for a steady leader at safety, I can't really regret passing on Johnson. So to answer Ken's question, while I did like Reyes I'll gladly take Bequette, Dennard, and the safety of BB's choice + a couple of Ohio Eb-boys over Reyes and Johnson.

I'm in agreement with this. As you've stated, the Pats aren't the type of team to try and massage a guy's ego. They want self starters who don't need their ego stroked. Johnson was labeled as a guy who wanted the focus on him and had a bad social ego. That certainly doesn't fit this team's modus operandi. I'm glad for it. One of the things I love most about this team is the depth of its character.

I wanted Brandon Thompson at 48 or 62. I'm a bit perturbed we didn't make the move their, but the value BB got trading down (as far as the players picked) smooths things out a bit for me. The UDFA signing of Forston also made me feel better. Stay healthy Marcus!!

 

[Snake Eyes]

I wanted Brandon Thompson at 48 or 62. I'm a bit perturbed we didn't make the move their, but the value BB got trading down (as far as the players picked) smooths things out a bit for me. The UDFA signing of Forston also made me feel better. Stay healthy Marcus!!

Amen, I would have been all over Thompson, Reyes, Chapman, and Ta'amu at that point in the draft.

 

[ZoisKing]

Amen, I would have been all over Thompson, Reyes, Chapman, and Ta'amu at that point in the draft.

I was looking at Worthy too. There was a good group of DTs available in our 2nd round range and I'm surprised we didn't go for it, but obviously BB didn't see the value that we did.

I'm really pulling for Tavon, and I hope he finds the right role in our defense. Hopefully we can all eat our words and get some good production out of him this season.

 

[Off The Grid]

What would you have thought if Bill had made this an all-defense draft by using 197
on DE/DT Billy Winn, and 235 on DE/OLB Cam Johnson?

Sure, that would've been cool. I'm an ENORMOUS Cam Johnson fan.