Feelings on Bill O'Brien so far?

[cmasspatsfan]

I think a lot of Mac defenders desperately tried to establish the narrative that all his woes were Matt Patricia's fault and we would see a significant improvement once he got a real OC.

2 weeks in, I am still waiting for the improvement. They are throwing much more (perhaps because they have played almost 120 minutes of catchup) so passing yards per game is up.... however I just don't see any improvement in the QB play.

Ian showed stats that showed much improvement, some guys ignore the stats or say it's a small sample size, but stats are facts, and the fact is he has shown much improvement.

 

[VrabelJr]

I think BOB is doing great. Our scripted drive to start the game was methodical and awesome until Strange single handedly put us in 3rd & 21. The variety of plays and formations is good. I see a lot more creativity overall.

 

[PScottman]

The team literally hasn't had the same five OL play together once since even mini-camp. OL requires BOTH individual and collective talent to be successful NOT just names on a lineup card. Injuries are another in the long line of variables that significantly impact an NFL team outside anyone's control. This franchise had a run of massive luck with those variables mainly falling the team's way for a majority of twenty years. Yes, talent and coaching and other factors had influence as well, but expecting that run of significantly fortuitous good fortune to continue forever is folly. New Englanders do not have a birthright to no injuries to their football team.

None of this means that the players or the coaching staff get off scot free, but it does mean that summary judgement should consider relevant factors of that lack of both OL personnel and continuity in any evaluation. Now if they get their actual "starting five" together and playing a couple weeks together of practices/prep and the results remain the same - let the heads roll where they may.

 

[RIpats88]

Ian showed stats that showed much improvement, some guys ignore the stats or say it's a small sample size, but stats are facts, and the fact is he has shown much improvement.

not sure how anyone can watch the first 2 games and NOT see the offense and Mac are much improved unless they just have a narrative. last 2 games are better than pretty much anything Mac did last year.

anyone with eyes can see the issue is the weapons are average and not explosive and the OL is in shambles. Rhamondre looks horrible so far and don't see anyone criticizing his play. because deep inside everyone knows what the issue is. but the "anyone but mac" crowd is more concerned with being right than actual reality. if the OL gets situated can block and we can run for more than 3.5ypg that opens up alot of what you can do. right now teams know we cant run and cant block so your options are limited.

given that there is no play action, no run game and average receivers who should be #2 or #3 guys on any other team not really sure what fans expect. we lost 2 games against 2 playoff teams with all these issues essentially because a rookie receiver couldn't get his 2nd foot down and another rookie receiver fumbled when we were rolling.

 

[RIpats88]

Just speaking for myself in watching the games. It feels like BOBs play calling is limited due to the offensive line. We have no play action because we can't run the ball. That is what I feel personally is the biggest detriment to us offensively right now. If the line can start creating holes for Rham and zeke then the play calling can be more expansive. The skill players are who they are at this point . Outside of DD we have no explosion on offense.

its obvious his playcalling is limited due to the OL. If you cant run or can't block is the OC supposed to call 5 step deep drops or play action passes? some posters here are either clueless (not you) or just want to be "right" about Mac.

at this point BOB knows he cant run and we cant block so need to just get the ball out fast and hope someone can make a play. unfortunately our receivers are average and slow. DD had some explosiveness. unfortunately he fumbled so BB went with slow Juju.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

BOB would be helped by his quarterback not committing a brainless brutal turnover every week, not playing a clean game ever anymore is not on the coordinator, OL, WRs or anyone else but Mac Jones.

 

[rkarp1]

the head of football operations wants to win games 20-19, by limiting offensive turnovers, winning ST and having a D that turns the ball over. that's how the roster is constructed. BOB is an OC that can scheme that philosophy and win games.
the season is now hanging in the balance pending the play of an oft disinterested T Brown, and average C Strange, an aging but still effective D Andrews, a still getting into shape M Onwenu and maybe C Anderson.
the playoffs will have to come from BB having his very best season as HC and the D continuing their excellent play

 

[Real fan 02]

its obvious his playcalling is limited due to the OL. If you cant run or can't block is the OC supposed to call 5 step deep drops or play action passes? some posters here are either clueless (not you) or just want to be "right" about Mac.

at this point BOB knows he cant run and we cant block so need to just get the ball out fast and hope someone can make a play. unfortunately our receivers are average and slow. DD had some explosiveness. unfortunately he fumbled so BB went with slow Juju.

Absolutely spot on, we knew the schedule would be tough... we knew this when the NFL made the schedule available to teams. From what RK was saying in the offseason the perception was having a real OC would fix the offense. I believe that's what was the thinking when deciding not to upgrade the skill positions.

We have some rookies boutee and Douglas who show promise.. how Boutte was unavailable right? DD got benched for fumbling. Nobody can win on the outside right now. The O line yes we have some solid players there, but it's just the constant changes up front.. their is no continuity for Mac and the Line to be able to execute blocking assignments. I'm always optimistic on the team.. but this season I just don't feel good where we are and another loss could propel an implosion.. Sunday is a pivotal point of sink or swim.. no more moral victory speeches, no more excuses.. guys who are out there are going to have to execute or else it's 0-3 and downhill from there.

 

[Ivan]

If they are not able to run against the Jets, things could get ugly.

Reagor should be put in. With him and Pop Douglas there’s some speed and elusiveness for the defense to contend with.

There. I said it. Put in Jalen Reagor. I was calling for that in the Miami game. Apparently, he’s taken very well to the team since he’s been brought in. He’s a 2020 first round pick that hasn’t panned out.

But he’s a 4.4 guy with a 42” vertical.

Reagor has been a massive bust up this point in his career, but i get what you are saying. While I support the process of building a defense and run game/strong OL first, I also can see how beneficial it is to have receivers who can get open immediately and often for young QB’s. And while I wouldn’t sit Douglas for Reagor I would sit Boutte, as he doesn’t have that quality. That doesn’t mean Boutte can’t eventually thrive in the offense, just that Jones is going to be under a lot of pressure this Sunday, and will need to get rid of the ball quickly.

 

[Ollie]

BOB would be helped by his quarterback not committing a brainless brutal turnover every week, not playing a clean game ever anymore is not on the coordinator, OL, WRs or anyone else but Mac Jones.

The interception last week wasn't great but the offense is predicated on 50/50 balls to parker as we have 0 deep threat. Parker also could have made a lot more effort for that ball. Mac also has the least amount of time to throw so far in the league. I'm not fully in on Mac yet but he needs support which he isn't getting. Bill really doesn't seem to value offense and hasn't for a few years

 

[Ivan]

Fans can be critical of the HC/GM, most definitely. But fans don't push negative agendas and beat them to death. Apparently you have difficulty discerning the difference.

That’s the same distinction I generally make. I can see being critical weekly and on the season depending upon performance/play, but the never ending grinding on one agenda-e.g….DKF-MacDaniels bashing gets old and tiresome fast.

 

[rkarp1]

The interception last week wasn't great but the offense is predicated on 50/50 balls to parker as we have 0 deep threat. Parker also could have made a lot more effort for that ball. Mac also has the least amount of time to throw so far in the league. I'm not fully in on Mac yet but he needs support which he isn't getting. Bill really doesn't seem to value offense and hasn't for a few years

if you are expecting mistake free football in September, you simply have not been watching football games. every team is a bit disjointed, even the teams that are 2-0. mistakes are part of football. Pats as a team, not overcoming those mistakes.
as far as I can tell, the QB has not fumbled, dropped passes, committed off sides or holding penalties. the team is not executing mistake free yet.

 

[Ollie]

if you are expecting mistake free football in September, you simply have not been watching football games. every team is a bit disjointed, even the teams that are 2-0. mistakes are part of football. Pats as a team, not overcoming those mistakes.
as far as I can tell, the QB has not fumbled, dropped passes, committed off sides or holding penalties. the team is not executing mistake free yet.

Agreed that was loosely pretty much my point replying to someone criticising Mac for the interceptions

 

[Ring 6]

By being objective, using historic examples, and logic.

Huh?

First, Vegas does done of the above, Vegas sets lines to even out bets.
That aside, how would you quantify “Vegas” determination of the value of a coach? The only data you have are the spreads. How do you determine how much of the spread is attributed to coaches?

 

[Triumph]

For starters, they’ve asked Vegas oddsmakers how much a head coach is worth (Belichick) and it’s less than 7 points for an entire season. That’s less than half a point per game. Coordinators are much more negligible. Odds do not even move fractions of points.

Empirically listening to talking heads and fans talk about coordinators is a laughable exercise and full of confirmation bias. Rarely do these guys make a difference over a season. The QB and the players are the total output. Seen this so many times with QB so and so and how a new OC is going to “get the most out of him” and it’s the same result. And when there’s a great young QB the coordinator gets a lot of credit and then fails to replicate the results.

If you look at the NE offensive coordinators, the quarterbacks they have here, and what they’ve done elsewhere, you’ll see the light. It’s a whole lot of smoke.

Correct

Just look at all the great offenses throughout NFL history who had OCs become HC of a different franchise and fail. How is Micky Daniels doing with his 30th ranked offense out in Vegas? Daboll has had metered success as the Giants HC. KCs Nagy bombed in Chicago.

 

[rkarp1]

Agreed that was loosely pretty much my point replying to someone criticising Mac for the interceptions

yes, I was agreeing and reiterating your point

 

[Drunken Cicerone]

The offense doesn’t look great, it has a weak armed QB, a bad offensive line and a group of WR3s

BUT it looks competent, like an actual NFL offense, probably a work in progress and this is by no way ever going to be a top ten offense but the coaching is light years better than before

 

[XLIX]

Ian showed stats that showed much improvement, some guys ignore the stats or say it's a small sample size, but stats are facts, and the fact is he has shown much improvement.

No he kinda really hasn't, once you adjust for the fact that he is simply throwing much more frequently per game this year compared to last year so a lot of his numbers are ballooned for that reason and not because of improvement in play.

As you say, it's a small sample size but stats are facts and fact is he is throwing 50% more often per game this year compared to last year (as I mentioned before, this is due in no small part to the fact that the Patriots have been playing from behind all season). There's your "improvement".

not sure how anyone can watch the first 2 games and NOT see the offense and Mac are much improved unless they just have a narrative. last 2 games are better than pretty much anything Mac did last year.

Average points per game:
2022 - 21.4
2023 - 18.5

Average yards per game:
2022 - 314.6
2023 - 335.0

Yeah, that's just light years ahead of last year....

 

[sb1]

Not hard to see that the offense even with all its flaws is at least running like an NFL level offense instead of just winging it. Sounds like he's also aware that it's not good enough right now. I'll reserve judgement till mid season.

 

[RodThePat]

This year they are 24th in offensive EPA/Play and 24th in dropback EPA/Play, last year they were 24th in offensive EPA/Play and 22nd in dropback EPA/Play. They average fewer yards per play, fewer yards per rush, fewer yards per drop back. All of this while having the second best average starting field position in football. They have been better in the redzone and on third down, they are avoiding pre snap penalties, but even though there are personnel reasons that explain the lack of production, I don't really see the meaningful improvement over the Patricia offense some are seeing. Not to mention both their opponents to this point had a lot of trouble on defense in their other games.