Edelman

[Ring 6]

My question, gronk is WHY? In EVERY chance that he's had to play significant snaps in the regular offense he has shown he CAN be a consistent receiver. He did it as a rookie when Welker went down, and he did last night, and IIRC during other pre season games over the last 3 years.

Clearly he's a much more polished receiver now than when he came into the league. He's absolutely ready to "seamlessly" move into the slot position should anything happen to Welker. And I think there is more evidence that this is the case than there is that he can't. He problem is that between Welker, Lloyd, Gronk and Hernandez, he's simply not going to get a lot of opportunities to show what he can do.

Ken,
You continue to reference a couple of medicore games as proof he can seamlessly replace the greatest slot receiver ever, while ignoring the counter argument that he has failed to produce or even get on the field for the majority of his career.
Of course you will use the excuse that only one player on any team could ever play in the slot, and the skills required of a WR in the slot or anywhere else very heavily overlap, in order to keep your narrow argument alive.
The least you could do is acknolwedge their is a strong counterarument rather than acting shocked that your opinion isn't the only one anybody could believe existed.

 

[lurker1965]

He's polarizing because, for some reason, there's a nice contingent on this board that thinks he can seamlessly replace Welker.

I'm not saying he'd seamlessly replace Welker. (He'd need more passes thrown to him to equal Welker - but what receiver wouldn't?)

But if Welker gets injured, KontradictioN, who would you move up to replace him? I want to read it so I can use the icon.

 

[lurker1965]

It's a similar argument as with Tebow. Tebow is an extremely "rare" talent but where do you play him? How much value does he add?

Tebow is in a different category of course having had much more success in college in the NFL but they're both swiss army knife types.

The difference is Tebow thinks he's a starting QB. (And that is not counting the "fan" pressure from off field.)

I have yet to read anyone even suggesting Brady would be pushed in camp by Edelman.

Heck, I haven't heard he's a perfect replacement for Welker unless Welker drops off or has a contract related issue.

 

[PatRiot]

Maybe it just not me, but " I love EDELMAN " - great motor, great 'hair' and just a great Patriot.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm not saying he'd seamlessly replace Welker. (He'd need more passes thrown to him to equal Welker - but what receiver wouldn't?)

But if Welker gets injured, KontradictioN, who would you move up to replace him? I want to read it so I can use the icon.

That's easy. I'd stick Branch in the slot full time before I'd go with Edelman.

 

[Mainefan]

Ken,
You continue to reference a couple of medicore games as proof he can seamlessly replace the greatest slot receiver ever, while ignoring the counter argument that he has failed to produce or even get on the field for the majority of his career.
.

Please note, Andy: When Welker was sidelined for the season after tearing his ACL and MCL against the Houston Texans, Edelman was called on to fill Welker's role; Edelman caught 10 of the 15 passes thrown to him for 103 yards, the first 100-yard game of his NFL career. He finished the regular season with 37 receptions for 359 yards and one touchdown.

In the Patriots' Wild Card playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, Edelman caught six passes from Brady for 44 yards, including both of the Patriots' touchdowns. Edelman became the first rookie to score two receiving touchdowns in one postseason game since David Sloan did so for the Detroit Lions in the 1995–96 season.

We all forget--Edelman has already done it. I think he might be a starter on most other teams.

 

[supafly]

That's easy. I'd stick Branch in the slot full time before I'd go with Edelman.

A plus would be Branch's knowledge of the route tree and his chemistry with Brady. A minus would be that Branch can't shake and juke like Edelman, which is one of attributes that is often needed in the slot.

We need a combination of the 2 of them.

 

[Ring 6]

Please note, Andy: When Welker was sidelined for the season after tearing his ACL and MCL against the Houston Texans, Edelman was called on to fill Welker's role; Edelman caught 10 of the 15 passes thrown to him for 103 yards, the first 100-yard game of his NFL career. He finished the regular season with 37 receptions for 359 yards and one touchdown.

In the Patriots' Wild Card playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, Edelman caught six passes from Brady for 44 yards, including both of the Patriots' touchdowns. Edelman became the first rookie to score two receiving touchdowns in one postseason game since David Sloan did so for the Detroit Lions in the 1995–96 season.

We all forget--Edelman has already done it. I think he might be a starter on most other teams.

First of all that was 3 years ago. In those last 2 years, he has caught 11 passes combined. I'm not sure how going back 2 years to find a game where he caught 10 passes with the starters on the bench in a meaningless game then had a 44 receiving yards is the proof you that will tell me he can seamlessly replace the best slot WR ever, or overcome the fact that since those 2 games he has proceeded to catch a grand total of 11 passes in 28 games.
If he would be a starter on other teams we would have traded him to those other teams and got back what a starting WR brings instead of keeping him here on the bench behind guys like Brandon Tate, Tiquan Underwood, Ochocinco, Matt Slater who aren't starting on any other teams either.

 

[Ring 6]

That's easy. I'd stick Branch in the slot full time before I'd go with Edelman.

Or Gaffney, Hernandez, Stallworth, Ebert............

 

[patfanken]

That's easy. I'd stick Branch in the slot full time before I'd go with Edelman.

And that experiment would last about 2 games before Branch would be carried off the field. Are you kidding? How many time has Branch EVER been known to go over the middle of the field, especially in the short zones. Branch is a charter member of the Torry Holt "catch and hit the turf" club....and that is not a slam, because its the smart thing to do.....for him. He'd simply get killed running inside routes among the SS's and LB's. Do you think it just a coincidence that we never see him there.

 

[patfanken]

Ken,
You continue to reference a couple of medicore games as proof he can seamlessly replace the greatest slot receiver ever, while ignoring the counter argument that he has failed to produce or even get on the field for the majority of his career.
Of course you will use the excuse that only one player on any team could ever play in the slot, and the skills required of a WR in the slot or anywhere else very heavily overlap, in order to keep your narrow argument alive.
The least you could do is acknolwedge their is a strong counterarument rather than acting shocked that your opinion isn't the only one anybody could believe existed.

Andy, first you are making too big a deal about my use of the word "seamlessly". I acknowledge that Welker has been the most productive slot receiver in history, but that doesn't mean he's any more irreplaceable than Randy Moss was on the outside. The replacement may not be as good, but as we will find out this season, that LLoyd is likely to be able to seamlessly replace him in his role within the offense without having to catch 23 TDs.

I guarantee you that Edelman is a much more polished receiver now than he was in 2009 when he very adequately filled the Welker role. I hope you are man enough to admit your own, very narrow argument was wrong if Welker ever goes down and Edelman get as chance to be the slot receiver. I know I will admit it if he gets that chance and fails.

Andy there IS an argument that can be made that supports your position. It just isn't a very good one. You make the fallacious argument that a slot receiver's skills are easily translated to a receiver who excels outside the numbers. Its just not so. Otherwise the Pats would have used Welker on the outside much more than they have. But they didn't did they? That's because Welker's skill set is better suited for the slot position, NOT the WR position.

To put him out there would be not only be a waste, but counter productive. The same goes for Edelman. His job the last 2 years was to back up Welker. Not to compete with the outside receivers. His skills don't match that what's needed out there, just as their's don't match up for what a slot receiver does. What is so hard to get about that.

Edelman's lack of production is directly tied to the fact that Welker has taken over 95% of the smaps at slot receiver over the last 2 years....and the fact he's had to play defense hasn't helped either.

I think this year he will get a shot at some point in the season where he will get a significant number of snaps at the slot receiver. Then the proof will be in the pudding, and we will find out who is right.

 

[Kontradiction]

Or Gaffney, Hernandez, Stallworth, Ebert............

Gotta be honest here, I never thought I'd see the way where you liked one of my posts. It must be awfully cold in Hell right now.

 

[Kontradiction]

And that experiment would last about 2 games before Branch would be carried off the field. Are you kidding? How many time has Branch EVER been known to go over the middle of the field, especially in the short zones. Branch is a charter member of the Torry Holt "catch and hit the turf" club....and that is not a slam, because its the smart thing to do.....for him. He'd simply get killed running inside routes among the SS's and LB's. Do you think it just a coincidence that we never see him there.

I could either type out a long winded reply dissecting your points or I could tell you that just about every single point in that post was wrong. I think I'll just go for the latter right now and save the long winded reply for later.

 

[patfanken]

I could either type out a long winded reply dissecting your points or I could tell you that just about every single point in that post was wrong. I think I'll just go for the latter right now and save the long winded reply for later.

Lazy is as lazy does. Dissect away, K.

BTW- I would start hunting for crow now, while you have the chance, because it goes down easier when it aged a bit.

 

[Fencer]

What exactly are the Edelman denigrators saying he can't do well?

• Get open?
• Catch the ball?
• Run after the catch? (Surely not that one.)

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, first you are making too big a deal about my use of the word "seamlessly". I acknowledge that Welker has been the most productive slot receiver in history, but that doesn't mean he's any more irreplaceable than Randy Moss was on the outside. The replacement may not be as good, but as we will find out this season, that LLoyd is likely to be able to seamlessly replace him in his role within the offense without having to catch 23 TDs.

Moss left in 2010. How does this point have anything to do with Edleman?

I guarantee you that Edelman is a much more polished receiver now than he was in 2009 when he very adequately filled the Welker role.

How can you guarantee that when his play has declined for 2 years. He has caught 11 passes in 28 games. I'm not sure where you get that he filled in very adequately. He played in Welkers place in game 2 and 3 and the playoff game, in addition to playing with the scrubs in a meaningless game vs Houston.
In game 2 the offense scored 9 points. In game 3 Edleman contributed 3 catches for 20 yards and the offense had a 26 poiint day.
In the playoff game the offense was horrendous and Edleman had 44 receiving yards. You have to look beyond the number of catches, and see the impact on the offense of Edleman being in Welkers spot.
Bradys QB ratings in those games were 53.1, 87.1 (in the game Edleman caught only 3 of 25 passes for 20 of 277 yards) and 49.1 compared to a season rating of 96.2. In fact the 2 games where Edleman played the biggest role were Bradys 2 worst ratings of the season.

Additionally, Edleman caught 16 passes that season in the games Welker was 100%, which was 8 games that Edelman was there for.
How do you figure he is more polished catching 11 passes in 28 games than when he caught 16 in 8?

I hope you are man enough to admit your own, very narrow argument was wrong if Welker ever goes down and Edelman get as chance to be the slot receiver. I know I will admit it if he gets that chance and fails.

What? Are you really arguing that you will be manly if you are wrong, and I won't as if to think it makes your point stronger? Really?

Andy there IS an argument that can be made that supports your position. It just isn't a very good one.

Actually it is sound.

You make the fallacious argument that a slot receiver's skills are easily translated to a receiver who excels outside the numbers.

That is not what I said. And it is a foolish argument that you are making. WE skills are WR skills and if Edelman could be anywhere near as effective as Welker he would be on the field, and producing when he is there.

Its just not so. Otherwise the Pats would have used Welker on the outside much more than they have.

They do use him outside.

But they didn't did they? That's because Welker's skill set is better suited for the slot position, NOT the WR position.

Certainly Welkers skillset is better used in the slot, but he has been effective outside as well. If Edelman were a quality WR they would be on the field together.

To put him out there would be not only be a waste, but counter productive. The same goes for Edelman. His job the last 2 years was to back up Welker. Not to compete with the outside receivers.

Thanks for making something up and calling it fact. If Edelman could be effective at WR he would be out there instead of a guy who doesnt know the playbook and Tiquan Underwood. Welker played outside in 2WR sets last year. He would have played there in 3 WR sets if Edelman was a better option in the slot than 85 or Underwood outside.

His skills don't match that what's needed out there, just as their's don't match up for what a slot receiver does. What is so hard to get about that.

His skills don't match up as a WR. What is so hard to get about that? You are seriously arguing that on a team hurting for WRs a guy who caught 11 passes in 2 years is really good but the coaching staff couldn't figure out how to use him That is inane.

Edelman's lack of production is directly tied to the fact that Welker has taken over 95% of the smaps at slot receiver over the last 2 years....and the fact he's had to play defense hasn't helped either.

Why did he catch 2 passes per game in 2009 when Welker played and 0.4 the last 2 years? Did the offense forget you can have 2 players in the slot? Or did the offense decide a TE was a better slot receiver than Edelman?

I think this year he will get a shot at some point in the season where he will get a significant number of snaps at the slot receiver. Then the proof will be in the pudding, and we will find out who is right.

So your argument is the future will prove you are right? Great

 

[Ring 6]

What exactly are the Edelman denigrators saying he can't do well?

• Get open?
• Catch the ball?
• Run after the catch? (Surely not that one.)

1) Be effective enough that the coaching staff wants him on the field, which encpasses getting open and catching the ball.
Surely you haven't been impressed with what he has done when he has gotten on the field the last 2 years.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I would hope that everyone here would be Man enough to admit that Hoyer can seamlessly replace Brady

 

[lurker1965]

That's easy. I'd stick Branch in the slot full time before I'd go with Edelman.

Good plan, if Branch was not traded and this was 2006.

Don't get me wrong. Branch was awesome in 2004 and 2005. I was upset at his leaving. But in 2012 he is older and not as quick.

Add to that he has an injury history, so sending him into linebackerland might not be a great idea.

In summary Branch replacing (a hypothetical) Welker in 2005 = good idea.
Branch replacing Welker in 2012 =

 

[Kontradiction]

And that experiment would last about 2 games before Branch would be carried off the field. Are you kidding? How many time has Branch EVER been known to go over the middle of the field, especially in the short zones.

He's done it pretty consistently since he's been back. He's operated in the short zones, in the flats, and at the sticks as any one of his particular route trees would dictate. The only difference is that he did it at flanker instead of the slot.

Branch is a charter member of the Torry Holt "catch and hit the turf" club....and that is not a slam, because its the smart thing to do.....for him. He'd simply get killed running inside routes among the SS's and LB's. Do you think it just a coincidence that we never see him there.

We see him there, just not as often as Welker because Welker is the slot receiver and operating over the middle is his primary job in the offense which lessens the need for Branch to do it as well. With the WR depth chart the way it is, if Welker went down with injury then Branch would be the next man up in the slot. Not Edelman, the guy that had trouble seeing the field even before all of the free agent signings.