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Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amendola?

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Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Welker was on his third team in a young career when he joined the Patriots

Which is the exact argument you used to attempt to prove that Amendola wasn't very good

And was welker handed a 5 year 25 million dollar contract? NO, he earned it.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

/ignore thread
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

If we were to cut Amendola on March 11th at 3PM and were to sign Edelman at 5 PM, we would have the same number of established veteran receivers before and after the transactions.

Right. We would have 1. I don't think 1 is enough.

I would not start cutting receivers until we have, oh, I don't know... Maybe two or three?
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

/ignore thread


Hopefully you won't ignore my "Should the Patriot's Pay Edelman over 6 Million with Amendola On The Team" thread. I figure I have a 12 hour window to get it in here after this one dies.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Last I checked, Amendola has worked with Brady for one year. Targets are a very subjective stat, and the quality of the passer may make that number very difficult to read. I know you are claiming to be objective in anointing JE better, but please explain how 'footsteps' Bulger and Sam Bradford compare to the Brady experience if you somehow believe those numbers are comparable. Throwing to a receiver does not necessarily equate to the same degree of catchable passes. I submit Brady may be somewhat more proficient than those alternatives, but I will leave it to you to explain why you believe Amendola had it easier than JE.

And if you believe 'targets' is a significant statistic, then you need to read this. It is very subjective, and unofficial. Furthermore, a more targeted receiver tends to equate to a more covered receiver, making receptions more difficult.

I believe that targets in the context of Edelman and Amendola are significant. The reason is that it indicates opportunity, Amendola has had plenty and up until this season Edelman has had minimal.

So I will ask the question – what is it about Amendola that you consider better than Edelman is? What does he do better, and what attributes does he possess that are superior to Edelman?

In addition, why are you making it seem like Bradford is this awful QB? He is not; the problem with Bradford is he has been injury prone but in Amendola’s 2 successful seasons on the Rams Bradford played in 16 games and was very productive.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Hopefully you won't ignore my "Should the Patriot's Pay Edelman over 6 Million with Amendola On The Team" thread. I figure I have a 12 hour window to get it in here after this one dies.

I think Collie could play slot receiver easily. Since we also have Boyce and Moe, I'm thinking of starting a 5 slot receiver thread. Too much?
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

I think Collie could play slot receiver easily. Since we also have Boyce and Moe, I'm thinking of starting a 5 slot receiver thread. Too much?

So, you do not think that the question of whether Edelman is worth $6M+ to a team that already has Amendola on it, is a legitimate and worthwhile question to ask.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

So, you do not think that the question of whether Edelman is worth $6M+ to a team that already has Amendola on it, is a legitimate and worthwhile question to ask.

I believe the slot receiver position in general has been covered here about 100 times more than it is significant on a football team.

Granted, we need a few healthy receivers, but I think there are quite a few 5'10" undrafted or low drafted types that could do a creditable job if they spent a few months or more training with Brady, in fact there is evidence of this.

I don't think the same is true of cornerback (Talib) DT (Wilfork (healthy, any comparable available?) pass rusher (need to spend another #1?) quarterback of the future? Second TE? Hell, a sturdy center guard combination is pretty important.

There are lots of small quick receivers available and if one only catches 90 five yard passes instead of 110, I don't think it's the end of the world as long as he provides a reliable safety valve for Brady.

Troy Brown, Welker, Edelman and Amendola are all fine players, but limited by their size on how much they can impact a football team, as much as some tried on teams and even playing defense.

Multiple arguments in thread upon thread don't add anything to it. One guy's under contract, the other isn't, they both have injury questions and both could probably do the job (IMO). BB will offer Edelman something. If another team offers something huge (which I doubt) he'll probably take it.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

So, you do not think that the question of whether Edelman is worth $6M+ to a team that already has Amendola on it, is a legitimate and worthwhile question to ask.

To answer your question, I don't think he'll be offered a legitimate multi year contract with significant guaranteed money in that neighborhood and if he is, he should take it.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

I believe that targets in the context of Edelman and Amendola are significant. The reason is that it indicates opportunity, Amendola has had plenty and up until this season Edelman has had minimal.

So I will ask the question – what is it about Amendola that you consider better than Edelman is? What does he do better, and what attributes does he possess that are superior to Edelman?

In addition, why are you making it seem like Bradford is this awful QB? He is not; the problem with Bradford is he has been injury prone but in Amendola’s 2 successful seasons on the Rams Bradford played in 16 games and was very productive.

First, you stated in post 17 "Edelman is a better player." You have offered your opinion, and it seems to be that Edelman would have proved he is better if he was thrown to more. But Brady didn't throw it to him. Why was that? Could he get open? Did he have drop issues? Discounting the fact that targets is not a great statistic as a statistic, you seem to want to make this number into a causeless lack of opportunities when the subject you are deeming to be the better player may explain that lack of opportunities by his performance.

Second, if the receiver may cause those opportunities, that may explain why JE got twice the receptions over the course of the season, because he was (1) familiar and (2) healthier this year. You are talking about the future, not this year. That means (1) JE has to stay healthier (not his history) and (2) the familiarity scale will tip to favor Amendola given a year together.

Third, I didn't say Bradford is 'awful'. I gave you a pointed question that you apparently cannot answer so are twisting it to something ridiculous. Discussing 'targets', JE received passes from Brady, and Amendola received passes from an aging, beaten Bulger and a rookie Bradford (compare QBRs if you are struggling with general comparable quality from 2009-2012 as you so love statistics). The question was the quality of passes, and how you can claim JE would have done better with comparable QBs. Brady is arguably the best in the game at throwing short and intermediate passes (both touch and accuracy), which is what JE catches. If you want to claim Bradford is comparable to Brady in the quality of passes he throws, then don't expect your opinion qualifies as objective.

Finally, answering your question as posed, I don't claim Amendola is a better player. He is a pure receiver, which means as a pure receiver, when healthy, he is likely to perform in that role better with all things being equal (routes, breaks, hands, etc.). When healthy in the Bills game, Brady threw to him more. At that point, Amendola was playing his first real game with Brady. Why did Brady throw to him more in his first game on the team? Was JE getting more attention than Amendola? This year, JE was the only familiar face on the field much of the time, and after all this time he knows adjustments and the playbook better than any other player. Having spent a year on that team, familiarity with Brady will be less of an issue.

I like JE better for all the other roles he plays on the team, as that diversity has kept him around and that raises his overall value to the team, but you are kidding yourself if you believe Amendola was brought in because the Pats wrongly believed JE was not as good as a receiver and somehow discovered the truth this year after staring at JE for 4 full seasons. He is a converted QB, who has done his best to learn a new position. This year has been a perfect storm of opportunities for JE, and I hope he gets his money because it likely will never come again for him in his receiving stats. If Amendola enjoyed a similar perfect storm next year, I expect we would not be discussing receivers and who is better in that capacity.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

This year has been a perfect storm of opportunities for JE, and I hope he gets his money because it likely will never come again for him in his receiving stats.

There's an echo in here.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Edelman wouldn't be worth $6-$8M if the team only had Larry, Moe, and Curly lining up at the other receiver slots.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Finally, answering your question as posed, I don't claim Amendola is a better player. He is a pure receiver, which means as a pure receiver, when healthy, he is likely to perform in that role better with all things being equal (routes, breaks, hands, etc.). When healthy in the Bills game, Brady threw to him more. At that point, Amendola was playing his first real game with Brady. Why did Brady throw to him more in his first game on the team? Was JE getting more attention than Amendola? This year, JE was the only familiar face on the field much of the time, and after all this time he knows adjustments and the playbook better than any other player. Having spent a year on that team, familiarity with Brady will be less of an issue.



I like JE better for all the other roles he plays on the team, as that diversity has kept him around and that raises his overall value to the team, but you are kidding yourself if you believe Amendola was brought in because the Pats wrongly believed JE was not as good as a receiver and somehow discovered the truth this year after staring at JE for 4 full seasons. He is a converted QB, who has done his best to learn a new position. This year has been a perfect storm of opportunities for JE, and I hope he gets his money because it likely will never come again for him in his receiving stats. If Amendola enjoyed a similar perfect storm next year, I expect we would not be discussing receivers and who is better in that capacity.


The issue is you're viewing Edelman as what he was and not what he is. You are not seeing the development as a receiver that has taken place over the past two NFL seasons.

In 2012 and probably even at the start of 2013 Amendola was a better a better receiver than Edelman but he is not today. He took an opportunity and made the most of it by developing himself into a very good player.

What is different about what Edelman did than what Brady did in 2001? Bledsoe was a good QB in the eyes of most, he suffered an injury, Brady stepped in as a player nobody expected to succeed and seized the opportunity, developing as the season(s) progressed. Things aligned for Brady right? Were you on a thread saying tough crowd, Bledsoe was hurt and Brady was the only healthy QB so that was the reason he succeeded? Talking about how Bledsoe was more of a pure QB and pointing out what Brady did in 2000 compared to Bledsoe?
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Edelman wouldn't be worth $6-$8M if the team only had Larry, Moe, and Curly lining up at the other receiver slots.


Why? Welker is paid $6M and Amendola is paid $5.7M APY. What makes them worth that money that Edelman does not do?
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

In a word "Yes" refresh my memory but what does Armendola brings to this Team again.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

Why? Welker is paid $6M and Amendola is paid $5.7M APY. What makes them worth that money that Edelman does not do?

That's pretty simple. Welker, to date, is the best slot receiver in the NFL and was a relative ironman until Frankenstein repeatedly hung him out to dry this past season for the almighty first down. As for Amendola, I've never been entirely sure that he's worth that money for the same reason Edelman wouldn't be: injuries. As a matter of fact, I speculated last season that Amendola's contract might have been panic-based when the team found out Welker was going to Denver. For Edelman, this is the first year in his NFL career that he remained healthy.

In the end, Edelman is everything you want as a WR3. For THAT money, he would be worth keeping. But I wouldn't pay him anything more than that no matter what the situation at WR is. If he's going to command that much money, let another team overpay him and use it at other positions on the team.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

To answer your question, I don't think he'll be offered a legitimate multi year contract with significant guaranteed money in that neighborhood and if he is, he should take it.


Why not? He was one of four players with 100+ receptions, 1000+ yards, and 5+ touchdowns.

He had 121 receptions, 1229 yards, and 7 touchdowns in 18 games this season. Amendola had 194 receptions, 1726 yards, and 7 touchdowns in the 42 games he played in his entire career when he signed for 5 years, $28.5M.

Do you think Amendola was overpaid with his contract? Otherwise I do not understand your logic.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

That's pretty simple. Welker, to date, is the best slot receiver in the NFL and was a relative ironman until Frankenstein repeatedly hung him out to dry this past season for the almighty first down. As for Amendola, I've never been entirely sure that he's worth that money for the same reason Edelman wouldn't be: injuries. As a matter of fact, I speculated last season that Amendola's contract might have been panic-based when the team found out Welker was going to Denver. For Edelman, this is the first year in his NFL career that he remained healthy.



In the end, Edelman is everything you want as a WR3. For THAT money, he would be worth keeping. But I wouldn't pay him anything more than that no matter what the situation at WR is. If he's going to command that much money, let another team overpay him and use it at other positions on the team.


That's fair and I agree that Amendola was signed in panic mode and that bad decision is not reason to overpay Edelman as well.

I believe the team needs to look at building other areas of the offense. The slot receiver is great and works well during the regular season but as proven time and time again against good defenses when it matters most that position can be defended.

I thought letting Welker go was a step in a different direction and if we choose to pay both Amendola and Edelman then we will not be able to move that direction effectively.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

That's pretty simple. Welker, to date, is the best slot receiver in the NFL and was a relative ironman until Frankenstein repeatedly hung him out to dry this past season for the almighty first down. As for Amendola, I've never been entirely sure that he's worth that money for the same reason Edelman wouldn't be: injuries. As a matter of fact, I speculated last season that Amendola's contract might have been panic-based when the team found out Welker was going to Denver. For Edelman, this is the first year in his NFL career that he remained healthy.

In the end, Edelman is everything you want as a WR3. For THAT money, he would be worth keeping. But I wouldn't pay him anything more than that no matter what the situation at WR is. If he's going to command that much money, let another team overpay him and use it at other positions on the team.

The Partriots are there own worst enemies we run a complicated Offense not a simple one like most Teams who can jujst plug guys in...we are talking at WR here. How many WR's have come in here and flamed out? I lost count. I cannot believe you woud be alright with cutting a guy loose who have upside and knows the system. We can call last year JE's Rookie year at WR he did a heck of a job considering the circumstances and earned Brady's trust. Edelman have so much going for him including age. I cannot see the Patriots letting him test the open market...I say a deal gets done Day 1 of FA Edelman and the Patriots agree to Five Year pack.
 
Re: Edelman may be worth $6-$8 million, but is he worth that to a team that has Amend

The issue is you're viewing Edelman as what he was and not what he is. You are not seeing the development as a receiver that has taken place over the past two NFL seasons.

In 2012 and probably even at the start of 2013 Amendola was a better a better receiver than Edelman but he is not today. He took an opportunity and made the most of it by developing himself into a very good player.

What is different about what Edelman did than what Brady did in 2001? Bledsoe was a good QB in the eyes of most, he suffered an injury, Brady stepped in as a player nobody expected to succeed and seized the opportunity, developing as the season(s) progressed. Things aligned for Brady right? Were you on a thread saying tough crowd, Bledsoe was hurt and Brady was the only healthy QB so that was the reason he succeeded? Talking about how Bledsoe was more of a pure QB and pointing out what Brady did in 2000 compared to Bledsoe?

I do watch the games, so I see exactly what you see (unless you pull out coaching credentials and provide actual game film clips that a coach would review, then your opinion without facts on the subject is useless and not worthy of debate - I get that you don't like Amendola for all the threads you have created discussing him (too high contract, crony of the hated McDaniels, manipulated the Pats to get a sweetheart deal, etc.)). And what I see now is when pressed on the value of statistics, you lapse into unfounded opinion or redirect. Point of fact - he is a better player because you believe him to be, nothing more. Don't claim objectivity because that is the very definition of subjective.

What is the difference between Brady and Edelman? Brady joined the team in 2000 as a very low draft, survived cuts and tore up the depth charts with his performance in preseason to the extent BB made him number 2. Brady was competing with a marquee QB and the face of the franchise under a very high value contract with all the political ramifications of that decision. There is only one QB position, and multiple receiver positions. Edelman was competing against whatever journeyman happened to join the team. BB didn't trade Bledsoe immediately after 2001 because he believed Bledsoe to be the better QB. Edelman has been on this team since 2009, was allowed to test the market last year and there were no takers. Strange that an uber-receiver like that would not draw interest in the market, and he would settle for a paltry one-year deal. All the experts on the subject that make those determinations in the NFL must not see what you see with your amazing perception when watching the games, so I suspect that means you can join the NFL as a very high-priced scout with your supreme vision on the subject if you believe your own argument. First day of free agency in 2013? March 13th. Edelman contract signed? April 10th. Those are the facts. By your Brady comparison, Edelman advanced in snail like movement over 4 seasons, displacing nobody on the depth chart, until the depth chart literally disappeared last season. Coincidentally, all primary targets were injured or gone, and suddenly he gets thrown to all the time when the Pats start to run the ball more and his statistics go off the charts in comparison to past years. If you watch the games, you would understand all this and admit you just choose to dismiss it in claiming he is just better now while discounting all environmental variables that may put statistics in context. Outside of the generalized 'opportunity' theme, Brady was already there competing against the best after his rookie season, Edelman never was until all of his competition disappeared. Not even close to comparable.

If you believe Edelman had some receiver epiphany and became the second coming of Wes Welker in the past two years, then point to what is different this year in his performance than last year and prior years with actual images/evidence of improvement or articles describing such an evaluation and defeat the "any port in a storm" theory rather than offering a vague "if you watch, he is just better" answer. Know that NFL teams have people with that evidence, and disagreed flatly and universally with you last year when they did their due diligence. If you search interest in Amendola in 2013, there were rumors of interest by the Eagles, the Ravens, and others before the Pats signed him. The experts once again seem to differ with your opinion in comparing the two.
 
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