Does anyone have insight into the secondary?

[Triumph]

McCourty's endzone breakup at the end of the first drive was pass interference.

For some reason these Refs are not calling PI in the endzone. They didnt call it on Dallas in their game vs the Giants either. There is no doubt in my mind that the real Refs would have called PI.

 

[braveht]

McCourty - 64 snaps
Kyle - 63 snaps
Dowling - 36 snaps

Where can I find number of snaps per player?

Thanx

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

Whelp, nothing I can do here but get the tape out and lead some "image" study. Football 101 is now in session, TA unoriginal presiding.
This is what blown coverage looks like at 18 MPH. Tavon Wilson owes Kyle Arrington doughnuts all week for the butt-saving that's about to happen.

End.

Unorginal - This is easily one of the best piece of analysis that I have read. Thanks!!

Hats off for taking the time to load the pics and explain succiently all the moving parts!

I wish the Pats don't take you away from us.

Any possibility you can continue providing such nice explanations on some of the big plays so that the rest can understand what worked and what didn't?

THANKS!!!

 

[SeymourTrophies]

For some reason these Refs are not calling PI in the endzone. They didnt call it on Dallas in their game vs the Giants either. There is no doubt in my mind that the real Refs would have called PI.

As much as I thought that McCourty play was PI on principle (it bothers me when finding the ball is not a part of the equation when defending the pass), the replacement refs are not calling penalties solely because it seems like the right thing to do. The normal refs would have called that because they would feel an emptiness if they didn't. A lot of the flopping you normally see drawing PI, holding, and block in the back penalties is not being honored right now.

Whether that's due to refs just missing it or simply not biting on playacting remains to be seen.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

Unorginal - This is easily one of the best piece of analysis that I have read. Thanks!!

Hats off for taking the time to load the pics and explain succiently all the moving parts!

I wish the Pats don't take you away from us.

Any possibility you can continue providing such nice explanations on some of the big plays so that the rest can understand what worked and what didn't?

THANKS!!!

Except it wasn't cover 3, it was cover 2 man. And DaBruinz was right, Arrington is in man coverage.

He's right on Wilson though...he did blow the coverage...but he got away with it because of some exceptional coverage by Arrington.

 

[satz]

McCourty - 64 snaps
Kyle - 63 snaps
Dowling - 36 snaps

Where can I find number of snaps per player?

Thanx

ESPN - Reiss has them after everygame.

 

[condon84]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

Typical examples of people trying to out smart themselves on this thread

IMO you can't tell jack from those snap shots. You need the coaches film.

Simple fact is you don't know the play call or play book. Hate to break it to you,it's not as simple as just cover three, cover two, quarters etc in the NFL....there's often combined coverage and not all teams play traditional cover two....so unless you have a play book and the call at hand, it's hard t take a amateurs analysis seriously.

I just rewatched the play on my gamepass...it looks an awful lot like 'cover 2 man'. Reason being, look where the strong safety ends up....in traditional cover 3 his responsibility is the flat and hook as well as contain.

Now look where McCourty is...he's stayed home and covered the flats which is the traditional responsibility of a corner in cover 2.

Now look at spikes...he's dropped back and taken the middle of the field at an intermediate level level. Then ou look for Hightower and Mayo and they are both covering the hook/curls.

Arrington is showing zone, but he then opens his hips and turns up field as of he were in man. What McCourty is doing is the complete opposite and gives it away. Gregory has taken the deep man which is his responsibility in cover 2 whom McCourty has left to stay in the flats.

What Tavon Wilson should be doing is, as Unorignal said, is providing over the top help to Arrington. He's absolutely been caught flat footed.

That is not cover three...it's cover two man...and those snap shots are almost useless. I had more success rewatching it myself.

DaBruinz is absolutely right on Arrington...that's man coverage disguised originally as zone.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

You only out smart yourself when you're wrong....I'm not wrong

I find it funny when someone goes to the effort of doing all the snap shots, then still can't call it right. That's how difficult it is without the coaches film to truly break down a play. Only noticed McCourty staying home in the flats after I watched it a tonne of times as he's barely visible.

 

[condon84]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

You only out smart yourself when you're wrong....I'm not wrong

I find it funny when someone goes to the effort of doing all the snap shots, then still can't call it right. That's how difficult it is without the coaches film to truly break down a play. Only noticed McCourty staying home in the flats after I watched it a tonne of times as he's barely visible.

I'm not an expert either. I only play on when I post on public forums.

 

[PP2]

Re:

Thank you for that explanation. Too bad it doesn't actually portray what happened on the field. Probably because you make too many assumptions so that it fits your hypothesis instead of just going with what actually happened on the field. I love how you continue to claim that Arrington was in a ZONE coverage despite him playing man the entire way and using things like peripheral vision to keep account of Washington and prevent him from cutting to the sideline. The way that Arrington played it made sure that any major cut would take Washinton at Wilson.

If this was supposed to be a Cover 3 Shell, then ALL the DBs had it wrong. What's more likely? That all 4 DBs got the call wrong? Or maybe the Pats faked the Cover 3 and dropped both safeties with the Corners in Man coverage and the LBs playing Zone in the Flat..

As for the claim that Arrington was "horrendously out of position" on the pump fake, He's within 3 yards of Washington. More than close enough to drive on the ball if it was thrown to Washington and knock it away. Not like when he was 3 yards behind Washington when he allowed the 24 yard completion earlier.

BTW, there was no blown coverage since Arrington was in MAN the entire time and used his positioning to keep Washington in front of him where he could break on the ball. The positioning ALSO took away any potential for Washington to use a double move to the OUTSIDE. It also meant that any break in across the middle would force Washington right into Wilson.

One last thing. The Pats regularly run combinations of ZONE with the LBers and safeties with the CBs in MAN coverage. It's not an either or with them. That has been going on for YEARS..

Sorry, but you're wrong. If you have this on DVR, you can see it's cover 3 by looking at what McCourty is doing on the other side. Prior to the snap, he sells zone, and at the snap, he rolls up to his man to play press. THAT is man to man. The other 3 DBs are in a zone and Tavon is supposed to be on top.

If you look at the still attached at the very bottom, far right at McCourty and compare his tech to Arrington's, both DBs are playing two completely different tech. If this really was cover 2, both corners would mirror each other's tech.

 

[PP2]

Re:

Typical examples of people trying to out smart themselves on this thread

IMO you can't tell jack from those snap shots. You need the coaches film.

Simple fact is you don't know the play call or play book. Hate to break it to you,it's not as simple as just cover three, cover two, quarters etc in the NFL....there's often combined coverage and not all teams play traditional cover two....so unless you have a play book and the call at hand, it's hard t take a amateurs analysis seriously.

Amateur? Did you actually play football yourself? I mean American football..

 

[PP2]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

=

What you also must understand about zone is it requires the discipline of all players. Tavon Wilson must NOT leave his middle third zone until that ball is released.

When you divide the backfield up like that, you are describing a cover 3!

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re:

Amateur? Did you actually play football yourself? I mean American football..

Yup....played from the age of 16...until I suffered a head injury and contracted epilepsy a year ago at the age of 21. I now coach in a part time capacity as I've had to get a few things on track over the past year I've had it...hoping to make it full time soon my coach was an American who played himself through high school but broke his back in an accident which prevented him from playing further. One of my close acquaintances as a coach played 'ball at Navy.

Obviously the teams and leagues we have over aren't anywhere close to NFL standards, but the football concepts aren't any different...and it's not hard to understand the concepts between cover two, three, quarters etc. it's just very difficult to actually see what's going on with broadcast footage...you need the coaches tape. It took me at least ten replays of the broadcast footage to see what was actually going on because you can't see everyone.

I'm an amateur of course

FYI for anyone who likes furthering their knowledge....'Take Your Eye Of The Ball' by Pat Kirwan is a phenomenal book when it comes to teaching you about concepts of the game.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

When you divide the backfield up like that, you are describing a cover 3!

Look at my third post...when you look at it long enough, I worked out its cover two man...not cover three at all. The giveaway is McCourty and Gregory's responsibilities....

 

[Big-T]

To me it looks like you're all dumbing down the play in trying to outsmart each other, to me it looks like Arrington is playing man but as pointed out by others McCourty is playing zone - combo coverages and mixing coverages isn't exactly a rare thing and it's all being twisted to try and cover everyone elses agenda.

In the end the result was a turnover - a win for the defense.

 

[patfanken]

I'm no expert, but I sometimes play one on this forum. Thoughts so far:

McCourty's endzone breakup at the end of the first drive was pass interference.

Arrington's pass breakup that resulted in Tavon Wilson's interception probably should have resulted in pass interference. He impeded the receiver's path, which is why Washington had to jump lunge at the end. If their roles had been reversed, and Washington had been behind Arrington and pushed off him like that, this board would be livid.

Tavon Wilson was probably completely out of position on that play. It appeared the Patriots were in Cover 3, Arrington obviously on the deep left, Gregory deep right, Devin McCourty right flat, and Tavon Wilson, who started in the slot, drifted backwards at the snap and Hightower slid out into the flat. It is most likely Wilson should have been in the deep middle of the field, and probably the deepest man on the field. Instead he bit on Locker's head fake on Washington's double move, which left Arrington with no help to his inside. If Washington had run a post instead of a go that would have been a touchdown.

I'm a little late to this discussion, but it seems like a good one so I'll start on page 2.

Unoriginal - I agree with your first point. But you'd have to agree that without the benefit of replay you can see how an official looking at this in real time might have thought that the contact occurred AFTER the ball hit McCourty.

I completely disagree with your 2nd point. Arrington had good position and any contact I saw looks mutual and incidental. If Arrington should be criticized for anything, its not making the pick himself.

You are probably right on your 3rd point, and its a good pick up. No question Wilson was late to the party and initially took to shallow an angle. Its probably just one play BB will have him going to school on....and not the only one. Its the price we pay for playing such young players on defense. There is the bad that goes along with the good. Still Wilson made a great play on the ball.

 

[PP2]

Re:

Yup....played from the age of 16...until I suffered a head injury and contracted epilepsy a year ago at the age of 21. I now coach in a part time capacity as I've had to get a few things on track over the past year I've had it...hoping to make it full time soon my coach was an American who played himself through high school but broke his back in an accident which prevented him from playing further. One of my close acquaintances as a coach played 'ball at Navy.

Obviously the teams and leagues we have over aren't anywhere close to NFL standards, but the football concepts aren't any different...and it's not hard to understand the concepts between cover two, three, quarters etc. it's just very difficult to actually see what's going on with broadcast footage...you need the coaches tape. It took me at least ten replays of the broadcast footage to see what was actually going on because you can't see everyone.

I'm an amateur of course

FYI for anyone who likes furthering their knowledge....'Take Your Eye Of The Ball' by Pat Kirwan is a phenomenal book when it comes to teaching you about concepts of the game.

Well the individual you are trying to "correct" has played plenty of football himself, all the way through college.

I've read Kirwan's book and it is very helpful.

If it is still a cover 2 as you maintained, then perhaps you could help explain to me why McCourty is playing a different technique than the rest of the DB's?

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re:

Well the individual you are trying to "correct" has played plenty of football himself, all the way through college.

I've read Kirwan's book and it is very helpful.

If it is still a cover 2 as you maintained, then perhaps you could help explain to me why McCourty is playing a different technique than the rest of the DB's?

My basic understanding of cover two is the Corners take the flats, the WLB and SLB take the hook/curls, the MLB the ntermediate middle of the field and the safeties play two deep.

I think why unoriginal thinks its cover three is because Arrington does show zone at the start and then turns with his man up field....so he's assuming we have played three deep.

The giveaway is that, on the other side, McCourty is defending the flat and Gregory is taking the man over the top in his deep zone. You can also see the LBs playing core cover two principles.

The only difference is Arrngton, who did show zone, but then followed his man up field in man. Had he been in zone, he'd have stayed to the flats just like McCourty, and Wilson would have solely been responsible for his man.

What unoriginal is bang on the mark about is Wilson should not have been where he was or arrived that late. In two deep you are the last line of defence as a safety...no player should ever be behind you.

 

[PP2]

To me it looks like you're all dumbing down the play in trying to outsmart each other, to me it looks like Arrington is playing man but as pointed out by others McCourty is playing zone - combo coverages and mixing coverages isn't exactly a rare thing and it's all being twisted to try and cover everyone elses agenda.

In the end the result was a turnover - a win for the defense.

McCourty was not playing zone. He was in press on that play.

 

[Big-T]

McCourty was not playing zone. He was in press on that play.

So essentially everyone has been wrong, best to just ignore them for now

The end result is all that matters, it was a pick so no need to complain.