Do you believe in God?

[godef]

And your never going to either.

To be clear, the thread is whether or not you believe in God. So I presume you meant that I'm never going to disprove that there is a God. However, it's not up to me to disprove a God. It is up to believers to prove that God even exists before they can try to influence our society based on that belief. And I say this has not been done. Not even close.

 

[363839]

To be clear, the thread is whether or not you believe in God. So I presume you meant that I'm never going to disprove that there is a God. However, it's not up to me to disprove a God. It is up to believers to prove that God even exists before they can try to influence our society based on that belief. And I say this has not been done.

My original response(s) were to address some of the contentions posted of why God didn't exist. I wasn't trying to influence a society into a particular ideology.
I didn't think this was a debate of why people should follow Jesus or Allah or Buddha or even the Pastafarians.
Perhaps the thread title should read "Do you believe there is A god?"
I just would prefer people to keep an open mind. This universe is pretty complex and I doubt very much anyone has all the answers regarding it's origins.
Even Stephen Hawkings.

 

[Rossmci90]

Because if we don't then we will be prone to overindulge our pleasure centers which will cause ill health. Mental and physical. We end up living
a short unhappy life.
Treat your body well and your body will treat you well.
Think about the future your behavior will take you.
That may take sacrifice. Sorry.

Since when did i need a religion to know to treat my body right? It may be a bit of a suprise to you but a 2,000 year old book doesn't give the greatest advice on how to live a healthy life.

By the way, just you know in future there is an edit button and a multi quote button.

 

[363839]

Since when did i need a religion to know to treat my body right? It may be a bit of a suprise to you but a 2,000 year old book doesn't give the greatest advice on how to live a healthy life.

By the way, just you know in future there is an edit button and a multi quote button.

This is about whether you believe in a god. Not a religion.
You took it as an opportunity to bash a religion.
Obviously I showed bias in my response to your post.
You're right. The Bible is not a health book.
But to your point, what specifically are you referring to
in the bible that would take a person to an unhealthy lifestyle?
Or are you just assuming that it can't give sound advice to a healthy life because it's so old?

 

[godef]

My original response(s) were to address some of the contentions posted of why God didn't exist. I wasn't trying to influence a society into a particular ideology.
I didn't think this was a debate of why people should follow Jesus or Allah or Buddha or even the Pastafarians.
Perhaps the thread title should read "Do you believe there is A god?"
I just would prefer people to keep an open mind. This universe is pretty complex and I doubt very much anyone has all the answers regarding it's origins.
Even Stephen Hawkings.

You were comparing a believe in a god to the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang Theory may turn out to be wrong, but at least it was derived at scientifically. In contrast, there is nothing scientific about whether God exists, it is only faith. So what I guess what I was saying was, the analogy to the Big Bang Theory is not valid. I do have an open mind, but I do have to see at least a little bit of critical evidence before I ever believe there is a god.

 

[363839]

You were comparing a believe in a god to the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang Theory may turn out to be wrong, but at least it was derived at scientifically. In contrast, there is nothing scientific about whether God exists, it is only faith. So what I guess what I was saying was, the analogy to the Big Bang Theory is not valid. I do have an open mind, but I do have to see at least a little bit of critical evidence before I ever believe there is a god.

That's fair enough, Godef.
Science, in it's own contradiction,
states that nothing should exist.
But the cosmos does exist. So do we.
I would think that alone should get science
a little motivated to research the possibility of
intelligent design(God). But not through religious ideology, of course.

 

[godef]

That's fair enough, Godef.
Science, in it's own contradiction,
states that nothing should exist.
But the cosmos does exist. So do we.
I would think that alone should get science
a little motivated to research the possibility of
intelligent design(God). But not through religious ideology, of course.

(a) That's not what science says; you are misinformed.
(b) Intelligent design IS religious ideology. You cannot seperate the two.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Godef's right, re: ID.

There's this hard thing to let go of: the idea that religion must make its mark in history to really have value. The most hard-core militant atheist will point to this notion and think he has pinpointed a problem with religion that calls for religion's eradication. PS, I do not say that we have such expressions here, but they have existed.

The problem is that whatever is precious about a religion cannot be put in a position of positing facts about the physical world that are not facts at all, but guesses either derived from or baldly stated in ancient scriptures.

They are very likely to be wrong about said facts. We cannot read these bits of scripture as descriptions of what literally is; they are, rather, clues to what "was" in the minds of the writers at the time of the writing.

For those who study scripture, what is there to look for? The moral and ethical teachings, through the stories and the characters, during the time of each story (the trappings of the times-- including much more unpalateable things than bad physics-- be damned.)

Whatever one thinks of scripture, we've learned one thing if we've learned anything: in the modern world, we must learn internally from scripture, if at all. We have no choice but to say that the lessons are subjective ones, and that when someone crosses over into dictating purported objective fact based on his own belief in an often wrong source -- to wit, scripture -- he is far too often wrong.

A scientific view of the world is, without question, the only way to collect what objective fact is available.

The facts of the subjective -- in itself, an inexplicable development (subjective reality, that is,) -- are another matter. There is a richness there, available to all of us. One may make that richness go away by describing subjective reality as the heat given off by the wires, or one may simply measure outcomes and say all that matters is our actions, not our silly inner ruminations. This is only the case insofar as we need outcomes to measure. But truly, I can create a robot which produces the outcomes, given sufficiently advanced technology. There is still no subjective reality within that robot.

There are those who would posit a truth that can be subjectively indulged, which simply does not have objective representation. Of course they can discuss said subjective truths with the like-minded, but they cannot in seriousness get those subjective truths to trump objective reality, if they attempt to order the objective world with said subjective truths.

This is why the religious are constantly attempting to fight against scientific fact, whereas the mystics of any faith are nowhere to be found in said battlegrounds.

They know truth simply is; one does not fight to make it so. That's stories, and histories, and politics, not truth.

As to ID, and its predecessor, creationism, vs. science: We find out what we can about the physical universe. That is the only science. You can't start with the answer and work backwards. When the task is objective understanding, you have to (literally) assume nothing.

PFnV

 

[OldEngland]

I do have an open mind, but I do have to see at least a little bit of critical evidence before I ever believe there is a god.

And I very much respect your opinion and enjoy your posts.

Just out of interest, have you ever listened to or read the testimonies of people who have had their lives changed by God? Nicky Cruz, Jackie Pullinger, Francis Collins, Lee Strobel or especially Saint Peter or Paul in Acts for example…

Is that evidence?

Yet these testimonies I've listed above are such a tiny part of a huge amount of evidence that exists at the personal level of individuals that currently is not (or cannot) be measured objectively at this time.

By the way you write, I guess you are very aware subjective evidence can be valid scientifically when put in the proper construct (which unfortunately it isn’t being at the moment).

Or failing that have you actually ever verbally asked God to show He exists to you personally? Just to see if anything happens? That of course is the best evidence you will ever receive.

 

[godef]

And I very much respect your opinion and enjoy your posts.

Just out of interest, have you ever listened to or read the testimonies of people who have had their lives changed by God? Nicky Cruz, Jackie Pullinger, Francis Collins, Lee Strobel or especially Saint Peter or Paul in Acts for example…

Is that evidence?

No, I can't say I've read these particular testimonies, but I'm sure most of us have come across other such examples. But, can you prove that none of what these people you talk about could not have happened without putting God into the equation? Does taking God out of the equation totally dissolve the testimony? Including St Peter or Paul in your list is troubling, given that they are a part of the mythology. So no, this is not even reasonable evidence, and what is needed is absolute evidence.

Yet these testimonies I've listed above are such a tiny part of a huge amount of evidence that exists at the personal level of individuals that currently is not (or cannot) be measured objectively at this time.

But tell me, what comes first? The faith or the testimonies? How much of these experiences are driven either by fevered faith or a near total feeling of helplessness? You admit yourself that at least some of this cannot be measured objectively; I would debate that none of this has yet to be be measured objectively.

By the way you write, I guess you are very aware subjective evidence can be valid scientifically when put in the proper construct (which unfortunately it isn’t being at the moment).

Of course it can, this is part of what science is all about. My question is, why is this not being done? You would think at least some of the scientists out there who are also persons of faith (and we know there are many) who could be doing this work to further their faith? I think it actually is taking place but the proofs have been between scant and nil. How fortunate that you think it isn't being done at the moment such that you can persist to believe it can be.

Or failing that have you actually ever verbally asked God to show He exists to you personally? Just to see if anything happens? That of course is the best evidence you will ever receive.

And what if I tell you I just tried this now and nothing happened? Would you think I was lying? Would you think I was being honest but wasn't ferverent enough doing it? Do I need to wait for a clearheaded moment to receive a subtle response, ie an epiphany? You really put yourself and your faith out on a limb by suggesting I ask God himself if he exists; it's seemingly do or die for the faithful, all riding on the results. Or is it? Because the faihful have always covered their tracks in the ways I describe above in this paragraph. It always ends with someone of faith telling me that God works in mysterious ways. This is frankly nonsense. God exists and it's up to me to verify it?

I became an atheist as a teenager, raised Catholic before that. Those were nearly 18 long years in which the evidence could have presented itself to me in some form. Why should one need to go out of his way and ask an entity to prove itself to me?

When I was a young adult, I once had a long distance girlfriend and found myself constantly tied up on the phone for hours talking about inane things (adimittedly they probably seemed inane because I wasn't absolutely crazy about this girl). I woke up early one morning to the ringing telephone and the phone cord was wrapped around me and the bed several times; I could not move. It was realistic, I thought I was wide awake until I logically thought it through and realized the absurdity of the situation, then I woke up for real. Relieved.

Was this just one of those waking dreams? Was this a sign from God? What did it mean? I need to dump the girl, or shame on me for not being more dedicated to her? The point being, the relationship was something that was on my mind constantly, for good or for bad, and it was obviously a trigger for the dream though she wasn't involved in it. What I'm suggesting is that such a method (my asking God whether he exists) is filled with too much ambiguity.

If I believed as a practicing Catholic, God apparently never felt a need to present himself to me. But now I don't believe and you suggest I need to go ask him to present himself? Essentially, this is what I did, I asked God if he existed, and nothing happened. Do you understand the absurdity of this?

When you boil it all down, it's apparent to me that there is no scientific proof, only "subjective proof," whatever that means. I think "subjective proof" is nothing more than another expression for "faith."

 

[Fogbuster]

God is more real than we are. The universe confirms it by the total symmetry and balance and harmony of all creation, not to mention the boundless beauty, truth, and goodness that pours out from every corner of the world and the cosmos. Even Hubble shows this in more and more detail; every time it gets an upgrade it shows more clearly the beauty and divine principle within and behind all creation.

Behold!!!

And most of all there is God's love for each and every person living today, who lived in the past, and who will live in the future!!! Limitless joy and beauty is there and here within!!


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[tanked_as_usual]

God is more real than we are. The universe confirms it by the total symmetry and balance and harmony of all creation, not to mention the boundless beauty, truth, and goodness that pours out from every corner of the world and the cosmos. Even Hubble shows this in more and more detail; every time it gets an upgrade it shows more clearly the beauty and divine principle within and behind all creation.

Behold!!!

And most of all there is God's love for each and every person living today, who lived in the past, and who will live in the future!!! Limitless joy and beauty is there and here within!!


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uhhhhhhhhh............what?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

religion and politics are pretty much one and the same.........

they both spend an incredible amount of time trying to justify how much we need them and that you're an idiot and are going to either rot in hell or your own bile if you believe them instead of us

they are also both doing their best to ruin a notion that was originally honorable..........and succeeding

 

[Fogbuster]

uhhhhhhhhh............what?

Pray about it.


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[wistahpatsfan]

Jesus, the human, said the only thing that I follow "religiously":
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."...I try my best to live by these words. Being a human and an occasional prick, I sometimes come up short, just like everyone who tries like I do but also has to participate in rituals and self-denial that are a complete waste of time - and that includes prayer.

I don't need a mythology to explain things I don't understand. I'm perfectly comfortable going through life accepting the FACT that my species is not yet finished with its quest for complete understanding of everything there is to know. In the last 200 years, we have advanced our understanding of Nature further than we had in the 60,000 years prior to that. It'll take a while, but I am confident that we will know how everything works relatively soon.

That is, if we don't kill ourselves first. With the support of one religion or tribe teaching their people that they are better than the other religion or tribe we continue to destroy our environment and wage war on each other. Tribalism and God-speak provide even the most evil people with the irrational hope of salvation, reincarnation, and the "after life", and that provides the license to continue on our course toward self-destruction. This is it, folks. We all have one shot. Accept it and behave accordingly.

So, not only is the belief in superstition not worthwhile (or even fun), but it may well be the cause of our self-destruction.

No thanks.

 

[Fogbuster]

Jesus, the human, said the only thing that I follow "religiously":
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."...I try my best to live by these words. Being a human and an occasional prick, I sometimes come up short, just like everyone who tries like I do but also has to participate in rituals and self-denial that are a complete waste of time - and that includes prayer.

I don't need a mythology to explain things I don't understand. I'm perfectly comfortable going through life accepting the FACT that my species is not yet finished with its quest for complete understanding of everything there is to know. In the last 200 years, we have advanced our understanding of Nature further than we had in the 60,000 years prior to that. It'll take a while, but I am confident that we will know how everything works relatively soon.

That is, if we don't kill ourselves first. With the support of one religion or tribe teaching their people that they are better than the other religion or tribe we continue to destroy our environment and wage war on each other. Tribalism and God-speak provide even the most evil people with the irrational hope of salvation, reincarnation, and the "after life", and that provides the license to continue on our course toward self-destruction. This is it, folks. We all have one shot. Accept it and behave accordingly.

So, not only is the belief in superstition not worthwhile (or even fun), but it may well be the cause of our self-destruction.

No thanks.

Well, you believe and follow what one man, Jesus, taught and lived 2000 years ago, yet as we both know it's not always so easy to do. For millions -- if not billions -- on earth today the purpose of religion is to help us to fulfill the great mandate you highlight; how to cut down and even eliminate any and all occasions of "prick"ishness. So often a good person is cut down by one mistake. Some people lead exemplary lives but then one day they make a foolish mistake and all those good efforts are thrown into the dumpster. So, by having a deeper and better understanding of our entire life course -- our core purpose, all of the ideals, along with the lessons learned from mistakes made in the past -- we have a more solid foundation to actualize the great ideal that Jesus taught.

As they say on the football field: "What you do in practice you'll do in the game." By training and training and then training again, we can learn how to perfect our life without making stupid and regrettable mistakes. God wants us to live without any regrets, not just with some false self-justification for sins committed, but a genuinely truly lived life.

Jesus also said: "You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." Mt 5:48


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[wistahpatsfan]

...Jesus also said: "You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." Mt 5:48


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I don't believe everything Jesus is alleged to have said. The Golden Rule might not even belong to him originally. Maybe he was stealing someone else's material - I don't know and neither does anyone else. I just attach his name to the Rule because that's my cultural basis. Some guy in Bhutan might live by the same rule but thinks it was from a Bhuddist monk from the 14th century. Doesn't matter.

Besides, as you know, I'm already perfect.

 

[Fogbuster]

I don't believe everything Jesus is alleged to have said. The Golden Rule might not even belong to him originally. Maybe he was stealing someone else's material - I don't know and neither does anyone else. I just attach his name to the Rule because that's my cultural basis. Some guy in Bhutan might live by the same rule but thinks it was from a Bhuddist monk from the 14th century. Doesn't matter.

Besides, as you know, I'm already perfect.

You (inadvertantly?) raise a critical point: though Jesus said many words of unsurpassed wisdom in his day, he may not have been the only one to have uttered such ideas. And, furthermore, when we think about his mandate: "... You, therefore, must be perfect...", it is clear that the wisdom he had 2000 years ago was never meant to be the sole possession of him or even a few, but rather for all humankind. That's great hope for us, right there. Even for those who are "perfect" ().


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[wistahpatsfan]

You (inadvertantly?) raise a critical point: though Jesus said many words of unsurpassed wisdom in his day, he may not have been the only one to have uttered such ideas. And, furthermore, when we think about his mandate: "... You, therefore, must be perfect...", it is clear that the wisdom he had 2000 years ago was never meant to be the sole possession of him or even a few, but rather for all humankind. That's great hope for us, right there. Even for those who are "perfect" ().


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Humanity has a common heritage in Africa. These common truths have been carried out of Africa and spread to the continents over tens of thousands of years of oral and written tradition. "Do unto others..." is a common sense approach to survival for any social animal. To not do so would endanger the survival of individuals or even the whole group. It's an evolutionary development that Jesus knew about from Joseph. My father and mother taught it to me. It was not given to men by God and more than our ability to add 2+2....IMO.

This touches on our perception of what morality is. Some believe it was given by God as if before Jesus "gave us" the Golden Rule the concept of it was unknown in society. Same goes for the Ten Commandments. The ones that outline basic conduct- like "Thou shalt not kill" -are common throughout the world. Same goes for "honor thy father and mother" and "bear false witness". These are all things that are necessary for social function in almost all human societies.

Just because I have a different belief about the origins of human wisdom doesn't make them any less useful. I don't necessarily discard everything that's written in the Judeo-Muslim-Christian Bible because of how religous people have used them for their own power and prifit. I just happen to reject a divine origin for all codes that guide our behavior. I know that humans are capable of taking care of themselves in the long run. Whether they do or don't has nothing to do with where our values come from. For me, I think we are part of a continuum of learning about ourselves and our universe. The "god" you speak of is seen by me to be our collective experiences and subsequent codification of our rules of conduct, which is always in flux and subject to the discovery of new things. None of that process is dependent on Jesus, Mohammed, Bhudda, Moon, or even Santa Clause.

 

[Fogbuster]

Humanity has a common heritage in Africa. These common truths have been carried out of Africa and spread to the continents over tens of thousands of years of oral and written tradition. "Do unto others..." is a common sense approach to survival for any social animal. To not do so would endanger the survival of individuals or even the whole group. It's an evolutionary development that Jesus knew about from Joseph. My father and mother taught it to me. It was not given to men by God and more than our ability to add 2+2....IMO.

This touches on our perception of what morality is. Some believe it was given by God as if before Jesus "gave us" the Golden Rule the concept of it was unknown in society. Same goes for the Ten Commandments. The ones that outline basic conduct- like "Thou shalt not kill" -are common throughout the world. Same goes for "honor thy father and mother" and "bear false witness". These are all things that are necessary for social function in almost all human societies.

Just because I have a different belief about the origins of human wisdom doesn't make them any less useful. I don't necessarily discard everything that's written in the Judeo-Muslim-Christian Bible because of how religous people have used them for their own power and prifit. I just happen to reject a divine origin for all codes that guide our behavior. I know that humans are capable of taking care of themselves in the long run. Whether they do or don't has nothing to do with where our values come from. For me, I think we are part of a continuum of learning about ourselves and our universe. The "god" you speak of is seen by me to be our collective experiences and subsequent codification of our rules of conduct, which is always in flux and subject to the discovery of new things. None of that process is dependent on Jesus, Mohammed, Bhudda, Moon, or even Santa Clause.

Yes, it's true we don't "need" someone to tell us what's what. Even Paul acknowledged that in Romans 1:20, when he said, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Nature, the world that God created, shows us in ample detail and frequency all we need to know about life.

The world, the universe, and all the lies outside our scope of view are all following the same laws, and thus come from a common origin. Whether we look at the universality of positivity and negativity (plus/minus) in the polarity of a magnet, a man and a woman, a proton and an electron, or whatever else, the universal law of "positive/negative" is there in all things. Likewise, the universal law of internal character and external form is found in everything, from the smallest particles to the largest galactic assemblies to humans: all things of creation have an internal "mind" (inherent directive nature) and an external form or body.

From these we can see how we should live as a human being. Adam and Eve even learned as youngsters about sex by observing the animals. So, no mysteries at all, really.

But there can be no mistaking the reality that humans do not follow their original purpose, but instead follow a selfish purpose, one that puts them at odds with all the rest of creation. This "discovery" of human failure has been called "religion", a word that is taken from the Latin: re (again) + legio (connect), or "religion", to "re-connect" us back to our original selves, not the sinful fallen selves we became way back when.


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