Do The Ends Justify The Means

[Ring 6]

It has often been said that BBs approach is to take away the strength and make the weak player beat you. I have often felt that this explains why less reknowned QBs can put up some of their nicer stat totals against us, but usually in a loss.
If you are going to make the young QB beat you, then you have to dare him to throw, and you can only dare him to throw by playing a defense more susceptible to the pass.
What I have seen over the years (SB years as well as 10-6 years) is that these young QBs can amass some stats, but in the red zone and late in the game BB makes them pay.
So, last week, Fitzpatrick threw for 247 yards. But the red zone defense was 1 TD in 3 trips, plus a stop at the 21 which is just about the red zone as well, and in 2 of the 3 4th quarter possessions, Fitzpatrick threw Ints.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't be recognizing that these are related.

To me, its no different than if BB had clamped down on the pass, held Fitzpatrick to 40 yards all day, allowed a crapload of rushing yards, and won. Frankly, its no different than if we shut them out, because we won.

I realize its more fun to watch a demolition, but really whether its 3-0 59-58 or 7-6 a win is a win is a win.

I get the sense though, that some posters feel almost a personal embarrassment that Ryan freaking Fitzpatrick could pass for 247 yards.
The tenor on this board this week has been that this was a win, but a bad win, that should come with some embarrassment and dirty feeling.

For those that think the defense is pathetically poor, wouldn't you consider a game plan that created 2 4th quarter Ints ingenious?

Do you feel the win is tainted because of the yardage statistics of the QB? Or do you feel whatever is necessary to win is worth it?

Its almost a question of 2001 vs 2007 mentalities.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Re: Do The Ends Justfy The Means

It has often been said that BBs approach is to take away the strength and make the weak player beat you. I have often felt that this explains why less reknowned QBs can put up some of their nicer stat totals against us, but usually in a loss.
If you are going to make the young QB beat you, then you have to dare him to throw, and you can only dare him to throw by playing a defense more susceptible to the pass.
What I have seen over the years (SB years as well as 10-6 years) is that these young QBs can amass some stats, but in the red zone and late in the game BB makes them pay.
So, last week, Fitzpatrick threw for 247 yards. But the red zone defense was 1 TD in 3 trips, plus a stop at the 21 which is just about the red zone as well, and in 2 of the 3 4th quarter possessions, Fitzpatrick threw Ints.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't be recognizing that these are related.

To me, its no different than if BB had clamped down on the pass, held Fitzpatrick to 40 yards all day, allowed a crapload of rushing yards, and won. Frankly, its no different than if we shut them out, because we won.

I realize its more fun to watch a demolition, but really whether its 3-0 59-58 or 7-6 a win is a win is a win.

I get the sense though, that some posters feel almost a personal embarrassment that Ryan freaking Fitzpatrick could pass for 247 yards.
The tenor on this board this week has been that this was a win, but a bad win, that should come with some embarrassment and dirty feeling.

For those that think the defense is pathetically poor, wouldn't you consider a game plan that created 2 4th quarter Ints ingenious?

Do you feel the win is tainted because of the yardage statistics of the QB? Or do you feel whatever is necessary to win is worth it?

Its almost a question of 2001 vs 2007 mentalities.

a w is a w. i give zero credit for style points or how it's done or o/u or point spreads. i leave that to the degenerates. i guess the media's mad we're NOT running up the score now. boy, they're hard to please. just give me the w.

 

[Lansdowne]

Re: Do The Ends Justfy The Means

The issue is when the Patriots play poorly against weak teams, it's concerning of how they would fair against better opponents. I'd like to believe Fitzpatrick torched the secondary only because Belichick allowed it, but I don't believe that.

Maybe it's the same strategy they've always used. But the difference is the Pats defenses of years past were still better at making stops. It's one thing to dare an opponent to beat you in a different way; it's another to roll out the red carpet and let them move the chains, keeping the Pats offense on the sideline.

We shouldn't try to think of this defense the same way we regard its 2001 counterpart. That was a unit with veteran leadership (Bruschi, McGinest, Law, Milloy, Johnson, Cox, Phifer) and guys who made immediate impacts (Seymour, Vrabel). For the most part, this 2010 defense is very green and not very battle-tested (long time since that could be said). They're not of the same caliber right now, though the potential is there. The pessimism of this defense may be unwelcome, but it isn't unwarranted.

 

[Joker]

It's a different game..all the rule changes have skewed the outcomes.

 

[Patjew]

Re: Do The Ends Justfy The Means

I think alot of people forget how tightly contested most games were for the 2003 and 2004 Pats. I'm sick of people making moral defeats out of victories.

 

[DarrylS]

I always thought, anecdotal, that the Pats played to their level of competition... better against the really good teams(except the Jets in week 2) and not as well against the poor teams. Many times it seems as though a poor team can amass a ton of yards passing, but still not win....

The bottom line is that it is about winning... that is all that matters, there are no style points in the NFL....

 

[Joker]

yeah...well..I still loved NO beating the bejeezus out of Indy last year

 

[IllegalContact]

This team struggles exactly where the whole world knew it would.

Sure a win is a win, but the level of quality in the pats defense is far from ingenious.

This team will ride the offense as far as it can go. Which is a problem given how this offense plays in the 4th quarter.

Don't count on any come from behind victories

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Maybe it's the same strategy they've always used. But the difference is the Pats defenses of years past were still better at making stops. It's one thing to dare an opponent to beat you in a different way; it's another to roll out the red carpet and let them move the chains, keeping the Pats offense on the sideline.

:agree:

I do think your thesis is valid up to a point. The difference between our difficulties against mediocre pass defenses in the past and now is that previously, we'd load up against the run and get beat by play action or base-defense pass plays. Then, when the field got short, we'd clamp down. Now, however, we're getting beat by mediocre QBs on third down and have one of the worst red-zone defenses in the league. I think the scheme remains valid, but there's some serious growth needed in the LB and secondary to make the scheme work this year. Last week was decidedly a step in the right direction, getting pressure on Fitzpatrick in the red zone, but facing a much better OL this week, there will be much more pressure on the secondary to clamp down when the field gets short. Failing that, we are simply letting mediocre (but talented) QBs get into a rhythm and then beat us when things get tight, like Sancheese did.

 

[Gwedd]

Re: Do The Ends Justfy The Means

I think alot of people forget how tightly contested most games were for the 2003 and 2004 Pats. I'm sick of people making moral defeats out of victories.

Agreed. Buffalo isn't a top-tier team, but folks here forget that they have lots more info on the Patriots, having played them twice a year for decades now. That's a lot of familiarity with an opponent, and division games, even against poorly-matched teams are always closer overall than other games.

Witness Texans/Colts. Do the Colts usually win? Why yes they do. However, the Texans almost always put up yards and points against them, because it's a division rivalry and the Texans KNOW the Colts.

We'll have a similar experience with Miami. I do not for one minute believe they are as good a team as New England this year, but they always play the Patriots tough because they see eachother twice a year. Lots of experience there. I believe New England will win tomorrow night's game, but Miami will score some points too, and the lead may change hands a couple times, just like with Buffalo.

I just enjoy the wins, and I'm not worried about how they play out. W's are all that counts.

 

[stinkypete]

If you are going to make the young QB beat you, then you have to dare him to throw, and you can only dare him to throw by playing a defense more susceptible to the pass.

This strategy was great in the '03-'04 years when the Patriots fielded veteran, clutch playmakers. It even worked (though less reliably) in late '05 - '06 when the Patriots had a makeshift secondary but a pretty mean pass rush.

Mark Sanchez, not Ryan Fitzpatrick, has proven to me that this strategy does not work today.

If you're going to field a defense that is intentionally susceptible to the pass, you need individual defensive players that can make plays against the pass. This current defense has guys like Chung and Meriweather who can sometimes make plays. The consistency though is lacking.

I suppose that the right course of action is for Belichick to play his defense and for the young players to figure it out and make things work.

But yes, a W is a W.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I feel dirty.



Feels good too.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I can't figure out whether Andy's comment is an example of "spin" that would make Karl Rove or David Axelrod proud or whether he's on to something. The bottom line is this is a long season and we'll know one way or the other in a few weeks.

In the meantime, I do agree that a Win's a Win and let's not get all tangled up in dissing them when they come our way.

 

[RayClay]

Excellent points. The difference is, we are not yet as reliably able to put the clamps on when we're forcing a lesser QB to throw it up.

I do think we have potential for INTs, due to athleticism and the pressure is improving.

It goes without saying that margins of victory mean nothing, that's just the frontrunners we've picked up along the way.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

The problem with last week's game was that we didn't really take away anything. The offense just carried us is all.

The Bills racked up 134 yards on the ground at 5.6 yards per carry in addition to Fitzpatrick's numbers. Neither INT was a great play by a DB so much as it was an atrocious throw from a journeyman QB, though he was pressured both times.

The defense didn't really do much, and it came down to our #1 offense outscored the #30 offense.

 

[BelizePats]

It's all about the "W". Especially with this current team.
Too many of the Pats fans I read on this site are still trapped in a 2007 mind set. If we don't win by 35 we stink. The Pats are a completely different team now with different coaches, management and especially, different players. It's incredible how young we are on D.
BB saw in 2008 that our D was regressing due to age and a lack of athleticism so he went about fixing it. If you look at what we lost on defense after the 2008 season, it's quite extraordinary that we somehow won 10 games last year. I doubt that any other franchise would have been as competitive with the same losses.
Rodney gone
Vrabel gone
Tedy gone
Seymour gone
Hobbs gone

Am I missing anyone else???
What other team loses their starting SS, outside linebacker, inside linebacker, RE and CB and is still competitive? Whether through trade, retirement, or release, half our starters on D from the year before were replaced. And, it had to be done!!! There is an argument that this rebuilding (and it is rebuilding) should have started sooner.

As a result of the wholesale changes on D, the current defense is very young and inexperienced. But, it had to be done to remain competitive future forward. Games like the one against the Bills are just part of the growth and development of this "new team". Yes, Fitzpatrick looked like a world beater as did the Dirty Sanchez the week before. This *****'s gonna happen with a young, inexperienced defense.
There will be some bumps in the road as this defense gels.
Welcome to the 2010 New England Patriots.
It's exciting and a W is a W!!!!

 

[flycessna]

It has often been said that BBs approach is to take away the strength and make the weak player beat you. I have often felt that this explains why less reknowned QBs can put up some of their nicer stat totals against us, but usually in a loss.
If you are going to make the young QB beat you, then you have to dare him to throw, and you can only dare him to throw by playing a defense more susceptible to the pass.
What I have seen over the years (SB years as well as 10-6 years) is that these young QBs can amass some stats, but in the red zone and late in the game BB makes them pay.
So, last week, Fitzpatrick threw for 247 yards. But the red zone defense was 1 TD in 3 trips, plus a stop at the 21 which is just about the red zone as well, and in 2 of the 3 4th quarter possessions, Fitzpatrick threw Ints.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't be recognizing that these are related.

To me, its no different than if BB had clamped down on the pass, held Fitzpatrick to 40 yards all day, allowed a crapload of rushing yards, and won. Frankly, its no different than if we shut them out, because we won.

I realize its more fun to watch a demolition, but really whether its 3-0 59-58 or 7-6 a win is a win is a win.

I get the sense though, that some posters feel almost a personal embarrassment that Ryan freaking Fitzpatrick could pass for 247 yards.
The tenor on this board this week has been that this was a win, but a bad win, that should come with some embarrassment and dirty feeling.

For those that think the defense is pathetically poor, wouldn't you consider a game plan that created 2 4th quarter Ints ingenious?

Do you feel the win is tainted because of the yardage statistics of the QB? Or do you feel whatever is necessary to win is worth it?

Its almost a question of 2001 vs 2007 mentalities.

As a fan I am dissapointed.. I really cant be embarrased becasue I had nothing to do with it

I dont think its as simple as that. I dont believe in a sport such as the NFL you give a team ANY wondow of opportunity. So your "focus" may be to stop the run ans "FORCE" the pass??? that doesnt mean you let them pass with success. Which seems to be the case with our secondary

Now when you factor in the draft and budget, the money may be spent on stopping the run before stopping the pass??? But how would do that and still insure success... there is no gurantee a particular player is going to perform the way you want him to.

So at the end of the day you draft the best team starting with the best player in his position on down according to your own measuring stick and formula. And then put them on the field with the best coaching and best game plan!

If the best player available to you in the draft is a QB and you already have a franchise QB you either draft that QB or trade down so that you dont lose that value.. you dont skip over the QB and draft the LB....because.. well..you dont need another franchise QB??

Free agency has given the opprunity for teams to tweak certain areas. But the foundation of any franchise comes from the draft.

And at that point you have to work with what you have.. And hope the players you drafted work the way you need/want the, too. And when it doesnt it could be because of coaching, the way you rate the draft, or the player...ect. ect. But there are too many factors to say... hey this is they way its being done..

I kow what your feeling though...I think this team has lost a step. Personally, I think it has been through the loss of coaches and other non player personal.. EX. I have to say I like a Josh McDaniels offense! Denver might not have the key players on their team to make a SB run???? but watching the game last week it reminded me of when I really like our Offense!

 

[RayClay]

Neither INT was a great play by a DB so much as it was an atrocious throw from a journeyman QB, though he was pressured both times.

What's wrong with that?

 

[RayClay]

I dont think its as simple as that. I dont believe in a sport such as the NFL you give a team ANY wondow of opportunity.

Apparently you haven't liked any of our defenses since 2000...

 

[cloud34]

I'm interested to see what the Bills offense does against the Jets D today. I'm pretty sure they won't score 30 points. If I had to bet, I might even say the Bills don't score double digits today, and that's without two of the best defenders on the Jets. The Pats defense should improve as the season goes on, and might actually be pretty good by the end of the season, but right now, they are not.