DL & EDGE Players: Run stuffers, designated pass rushers, hybrids, etc

2020 Patriots Season:
Upcoming Opponent:
Next Up: vs Raiders
Pick Results: LAS: 3.4% at NE: 96.6%
Sun
Sep 27th

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manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
I've slacked off, too. I will try to ramp up this weekend. I'm working on a Hendrickson breakdown right now that's largely complete, other than the gifs. If you like Lawson, then maybe I'll try to get to him next.
Do you have a spoiler alert on Hendrickson? I liked him for an attacking 4-3 team, didn't think he's a great fit for us.
 

reamer

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Trey Hendrickson

Led the nation in blocked kicks/punts. Fast, fiery player with legitimately explosive traits to his game. 24 sacks and 6 forced fumbles over the last two years. Shorter arms (32” ) will likely knock him down some draft boards, but he still has longer arms than Melvin Ingram and Markus Golden, and is right in the same range as Vic Beasley and Yannick Ngakoue, so technique and talent can certainly win out over an inch of arm length. Overall, he’s a bit of a finesse rusher who will do best in an upfield scheme. Depending on where he goes, he will probably average 6 - 8 sacks a year, and possibly earn a pro bowl nod or two at some point in his career, but I don’t think he’s a foundational defensive player.

I have him rated as a late 2nd, early 3rd round player, but I’m not certain he’s a great fit for the Patriots defense, where lane integrity and run defense are important elements on the edge. He has the athleticism to thrive in space, however, and to create havoc if turned loose on 3rd and long. If we still had a 1st and 2nd round pick, then I’d be much more inclined to spend 72 on him as a situational pass rusher while he develops a more well-rounded skillset. He could very well have good value and become a full-time starter in a couple of years. He’s an intriguing player with considerable upside, but he’s probably better in an attacking scheme.


6' 4"
266 lbs
32"
9⅞"
4.65
33½"
122"
7.03s
4.2s
11.43s



Positives:

+ Ideal height/weight for position
+ High intensity player with competitive edge
+ Tomahawks the ball whenever possible; looks for turnovers
+ Elite testing numbers: above the 80th percentile for 40, broad jump, 3-cone, short shuttle, and 60 yard shuttle (99th percentile in the 60 yard shuttle)
+ Exceptional 10 yard split (1.59)
+ Relentless in pursuit
+ Quick inside move with good arm over technique
+ Can play standing up as an ILB or OLB
+ Experience as a QB spy
+ Play speed matches timed speed
+ Excellent in pursuit with speed + motor
+ Can split double teams if they are not directly blocking him
+ Flashes active hands (although they sometimes lack power)
+ For what it's worth, PFF rates his pressure ratio very highly


Negatives:

- Short arms for position
- Effort, but not production, in the run game
- Hesitant and gets washed out against the run
- Incapable of handling sustained double teams
- Overruns plays in haste to make tackles
- Can be caught guessing against the run and vacate gap responsibility
- Not much of a bull rush
- Lacks awareness against screens and PA-pass; always looking to get upfield
- Inconsistent timing the snap, which can negate his natural burst
- Doesn’t always convert speed to power very effectively
- Too often runs a long loop past the quarterback and takes himself out of the rush



One of four special teams blocks this year:

M. Badgley 24 yd FG BLOCKED,blocked by Trey Hendrickson - ESPN Video


Highlight reel:




POST UNDER CONSTRUCTION. GIFS STILL TO COME.
 

manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
One thing to look for with potential draft picks of pass-rushers is the 10 yard split.

Chandler Jones - 1.69
Geneo Grissom - 1.65 combine, 1.62 pro day
Trey Flowers - 1.73 combine, 1.63 pro day

Nick Caserio said that Chandler Jones' was lower than the ideal.

Caserio shared that Jones' height and weight met the team's standards, as did his arm length, while his 10-yard split was a bit lower than desired. While those things were easier to quantify, Caserio then noted how Jones' ability to play with leverage, bend and collapse the pocket was much tougher to quantify from a data perspective.
Patriots' Nick Caserio on analytics and Akeem Ayers

I think if you're looking for a prototype as a Pats pass rusher, you're looking at:

6'4-6'5.
Approx 265lbs - Jones, Bequette, Flowers and Grissom were between 262lbs and 275lb.
10 yard split/3-cone - interestingly of the four recent pass rush picks, the two with better 3-cones (Bequette and Chandler Jones) had slower 10 yard splits. The two with slower 3-cones (Grissom/Flowers) had better 10 yard splits*
Arm length? Jones and Flowers had long arms, Bequette and Grissom did not. Of course, two of those have been successful and two have not.

*

Ten yd/3-cone

Chandler Jones - 1.69/7.07
Jake Bequette - 1.71/6.90
Trey Flowers - 1.63/7.26
Geneo Grissom - 1.62/7.24

Small sample size but I wonder if the Pats consider the ability to bend (3-cone) a way to make up for lesser explosion (10 yard split). Take Tarrell Basham as an example. His 3-cone wasn't great at 7.27 but he did have a 1.61 10 yard split. On the other hand, Daeshon Hall and Deatrich Wise had good 3-cones (7.03/7.07 respectively) but more sluggish 10 yard splits (1.67/1.70 respectively).
 

manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
Using the above profiles the most likely fits are the usual suspects: Taco Charlton, Daeshon Hall, Deatrich Wise, Tarrell Basham. Two names I wouldn't discount though are Keionta Davis and Avery Moss. Davis was 271lb with 34" arms. He ran well at his pro day at 4.71 and had a 37" vert but I don't have his 10 yard split or 3-cone. Avery Moss is 264lbs with 34.5" arms. He had a 1.63 10 yard split and a 7.25 3-cone.
 

manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
one other thing I've noted is the vertical jump:

Jake Bequette - 34"
Chandler Jones - 35"
Geneo Grissom - 37"
Trey Flowers - 36.5"

Only two prospects at the combine weighed in at more than 260lb and jumped higher than 34". Fadol Brown and Daeshon Hall although Keionta Davis jumped 37" at his pro day. Daeshon Hall nd maybe Keionta Davis ticking a lot of boxes measurables wise.
 

manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
Finally, re Hendrickson, Willis and Rivers and Wise

Hendrickson matches Ht, WT, 10 yard and 3-cone but has short arms (32") and a 33.5" VJ
Rivers is undersized at 248lbs and has shortish arms but fits everything else
Willis has average arms and is slightly undersized at 255lbs but easily outperforms the other metrics.
Deatrich Wise is still a possibility with a 33" vj but has the slowest 10 yard split (1.70).
 

captain stone

Pro Bowl Player
How much did Hendrickson lift?

I know that the bench press is discounted, but for OLmen & DLmen, I don't discount it. And one of the reasons that Jake the Fake Bequette should've been no higher than a 5th-round value is that he never once lifted during the draft process.
 

reamer

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
How much did Hendrickson lift?

I know that the bench press is discounted, but for OLmen & DLmen, I don't discount it. And one of the reasons that Jake the Fake Bequette should've been no higher than a 5th-round value is that he never once lifted during the draft process.
As far as I know, he did not lift at the Combine or at his pro day. Interesting.
 

reamer

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Loved the metrics discussion @manxman2601! Davis is someone I keep planning on getting to, but for one reason or another, I haven't had as much opportunity to review his games as I would like. I've only seen snippets, and I'll admit that I wasn't super impressed, but I did note that I needed to watch more. His pro day numbers were excellent, though (4.67, 37" vert, 30 reps on bench, etc). He also has the production to back it up: 132 tackles, 43 for a loss, 19 pass deflections, eight forced fumbles, four fumble recoveries, 31 sacks.

I was more impressed by the offensive side of the ball in the games I watched, as Levin and Board show some serious athleticism. Levin might be the best pulling guard I saw all year, although he needs work in other areas, and Board's pro day numbers were top notch.

Pro Day Recap

Love all the discussion. Keep it up, team. :)
 

reamer

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Small update: Davis needs technique work, but he physically whoops the guys across from him in every game I watch. That's not to say that it always translates into production or good football plays, but I think I vastly underrated his power and athleticism. His tape reminds me a lot of Sheard's back in college, actually: just a big, powerful dude who doesn't know how to use his hands yet, but still manages to dominate competition and make something out of it.


Sheard vs Notre Dame:



Davis vs Robinson (Alabama OT) :

 

I.M. Fletcher

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Love it guys. It's a big reason I have been much more focused on the "elephant edge" guys than some of the more traditional rushers. We have a very specific type we look for in a long term end, and are seemingly very patient to wait for it.

It isn't surprising that Myles Garrett tests out so remarkably in all the categories we look for. His ability really is transcendent in every system. Probably better he gets to go play in a system that will earn him a lot more money than here. Gregg Williams is going to make that guy a boatload of money in his career.

Solomon Thomas body type definitely lends more to a 3tech, but outside of shortish arms, he has the rest in abundance. Again, he's also another talent that transcends system, which is one more reason he's going so high.

I have figured for awhile that Wise would be the guy we would end up with, just given the clear measurement and skill set fit. At the same time, given the class, I am sure it would still seem like a disappointment. I don't know why I keep thinking about Bequette with him, but he measures out much better in length, which was one of his biggest issues.

I have a few more thoughts that I will come back to this evening.
 

captain stone

Pro Bowl Player
Small update: Davis needs technique work, but he physically whoops the guys across from him in every game I watch. That's not to say that it always translates into production or good football plays, but I think I vastly underrated his power and athleticism. His tape reminds me a lot of Sheard's back in college, actually: just a big, powerful dude who doesn't know how to use his hands yet, but still manages to dominate competition and make something out of it.


Sheard vs Notre Dame:



Davis vs Robinson (Alabama OT) :

I'm still upset that Bill allowed Sheard - the man he probably should've drafted instead of Glas-IR Dowling anyway - to sign with Indy.
 

BelichickFan

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I'm still upset that Bill allowed Sheard - the man he probably should've drafted instead of Glas-IR Dowling anyway - to sign with Indy.
I don't think there was any real interest in bringing him back. I think they wanted a mutual separation but, to Sheard's credit, he played the season out after the 49er game issue. But it appears it was time to move on.
 

manxman2601

Hall of Fame Poster
Small update: Davis needs technique work, but he physically whoops the guys across from him in every game I watch. That's not to say that it always translates into production or good football plays, but I think I vastly underrated his power and athleticism. His tape reminds me a lot of Sheard's back in college, actually: just a big, powerful dude who doesn't know how to use his hands yet, but still manages to dominate competition and make something out of it.


Sheard vs Notre Dame:



Davis vs Robinson (Alabama OT) :

Davis' strip fumble against Alabama would have pleased BB.
 

maineman209

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Small update: Davis needs technique work, but he physically whoops the guys across from him in every game I watch. That's not to say that it always translates into production or good football plays, but I think I vastly underrated his power and athleticism. His tape reminds me a lot of Sheard's back in college, actually: just a big, powerful dude who doesn't know how to use his hands yet, but still manages to dominate competition and make something out of it.


Sheard vs Notre Dame:



Davis vs Robinson (Alabama OT) :

It seemed to me that Bama ran very few plays to whichever side Davis was lined up on. When they did run to his side, the OT often had a little help. His one-on-one "losses" to the OT seemed mostly a matter of lack of technique.

Often late off the snap, though that sometimes seemed deliberate. Not particularly quick or fast (compared to Bama), but generally good footwork and balance. I don't think I saw him on the ground except when a blocker actually tackled him (no flags).

Set the edge pretty consistently. I don't think I saw him lose contain by diving inside more than once. Not quick enough to catch up to the play from behind very often, but showed good awareness (and strength) to strip the ball from the RB when he did.

Consistently kept his eyes on the play whether he could get there or not.

Add 15 pounds and tech him better technique ... maybe a 3-tech?
 
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