Did The Baltimore Game Change Anyones Views On "Team Needs"?

[Peachhead]

I'd also add Joe Adams (reservedly) to my previous list. Would fulfill that function. Another double dip draft?

I really like Joe Adams and Marquis Maze as KR/PR, reserve WRs. My favorite WR in this class is Ryan Broyles, Okla. Even though he's about Deion Branch's size and right now he's rehabbing from an acl injury. If the medical people tell BB his rehab is going well I wouldn't mind spending a 2nd on Broyles.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Didn't change my views on their needs at all. I still think they should take P. Konz C Wisconsin if he is there in the late first, and want them to go defense with pretty much the rest of the draft, especially if they can address WR in free agency, if not then take a WR who can stretch the field wide and deep.

Taking Konz gives them the best prospect at the position late in the first, and that's a good value at a real need going forward. If they can get that done their OL is set for years to come and they can focus on everything else for the next couple of drafts. I like Koppen but he is nearing the end and if Konz turns out anything like Mangold did then it will be a great choice.

Konz/Cox

Konz/Ingram

Konz/Bonkers

I would be happy with any of these first round outcomes, and if Konz is gone then I'd be fine with them taking defense with both picks or pairing K. Wright with a defensive player.

 

[Marqui]

Still think they should focus on pass rushing DT/DE and DE/OLB (I think Ninkovich and Love are backups), outside playmaking reciever (Brandon Lloyd should take care of that), and secondary (I think the Pats have a nice base there though with Moore McCourty Arrington Dowling Chung). Center is a secondary need in my mind of Connolly is resigned.

 

[cstjohn17]

I don't know if it changed my thoughts but it did crystallize some deficiencies.

1) No outside WRs
2) Open WRs - Weakness at Safety and Corner
3) No edge pressure

Like any year you can always add DL and OL.

As usual the team is in great shape, sign a few free agents to fill in the holes and then use the draft to add high quality depth.

 

[Off The Grid]

Didn't change my views on their needs at all. I still think they should take P. Konz C Wisconsin if he is there in the late first, and want them to go defense with pretty much the rest of the draft, especially if they can address WR in free agency, if not then take a WR who can stretch the field wide and deep.

Taking Konz gives them the best prospect at the position late in the first, and that's a good value at a real need going forward. If they can get that done their OL is set for years to come and they can focus on everything else for the next couple of drafts. I like Koppen but he is nearing the end and if Konz turns out anything like Mangold did then it will be a great choice.

Konz/Cox

Konz/Ingram

Konz/Bonkers

I would be happy with any of these first round outcomes, and if Konz is gone then I'd be fine with them taking defense with both picks or pairing K. Wright with a defensive player.

I'm not sure I agree with your choice, there.



Can he Rush the Passer?

 

[patsinthesnow]

I think Deaderick has solidified himself as a starter in the 3-4 as a DE next to Vince in 2012, he has looked very impressive the last few weeks.

If we do switch to the 3-4 however, another DE is needed. Shaun Ellis will be 35 and pretty much done, and I'm not sure how Love has looked as a 3-4 DE.

WR is obvious. If Brandon Lloyd comes and Welker is resigned, we'll be plenty set for 2012. A young kid is needed.

Center, eh, Connolly has played well there, not a need.

OLB- Yes, a starter is needed across from Ninkovich. I think M. Carter could be a decent player in 2012, but you can't count on that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondary is where it gets interesting.....

Mccourty has looked very well last few weeks, almost like his old self, let's do a scenario where he stays at FS.

That leaves you with Chung, Mccourty, and Ihedigbo at S, more depth/maybe a rookie is needed there.

CB, I don't see a need here. It depends what you think about Moore's potential/Dowling. I could see Dowling and Moore as starters, with Arrington in the nickel.

If Mccourty goes back to CB, then the position is deep with those 4, and safety is the obvious need.

 

[jsull87]

I pretty much agree with everything you said manxman. I don't think this game really changes anything and I dont think the result of the Super Bowl should have any real effect. This team obviously does have needs, but I think we are in a good position to go BPA. I think the D-line has been underrated all year and I don't think we will go that way in the first round unless someone like Brockers falls. The reason for this is because the type of DL we look for has become overvalued, so it is highly unlikely one would be BPA at the end of round 1. I think DB could be a likely option once again, especially if someone falls. If Dre Kirkpatrick drops (which is highly unlikely) I would be all over him. But in the end I think we are in a good spot to just wait it out and see what happens.

In terms of a deep threat WR, it's obviously a need. But what I think is important is not to get a 1 trick pony, we need a guy that can also be an every down WR. The reason for this really is I don't think Brady is great at throwing the deep ball. While he was fantastic in 07, I think over the past few years he has struggled throwing it deep and has turned it over quite a few times. This could be because of the lack of a deep threat, but he has also made some bad decisions. So I think the deep ball needs to be more of a surprise to catch the defense off guard. Now, whenever Slater enters the game the defense knows its a deep pass, so a WR that is only a threat deep is less effective. I think a versatile WR, that has the ability to go deep, with either speed or size would be ideal.

Honestly i don't think this is a draft issue. I think the FA class next year at WR is to good not to address the need there. Specifically Brandon Lloyd or if Payton isn't back Reggie Wayne (who i personally think is a marked upgrade from branch). Both have the ability to attach the whole field from the outside position and both have good size and productivity (Lloyd in our system which is a plus).

I do acknowledge we are poking holes in a great offense but the point does remain the weakness of our Offense is the outside WR game.

 

[kennyb]

I think they need a backup TE, like michael egnew out of missouri. He is good, kind of a cross between gronkowski and hernandez. Height of Gronkowski but is also pretty agile and has great hands, not a good inline blocker though, at least doesn't line up that way now.

From seeing Barron play he seems to process things very very quickly. Plays fast in other words. Also qb'd the alabama defense for quite a while. Well spoken non-thug personality. I'd be very happy if they drafted him.

I like ryan broyles too, but i think a 2nd rounder is way too high for him. He might have gotten that if he weren't injured. Right now nfldraftscout has him in the 6th round area.

 

[Sciz]

You're going to have to support this, because after watching upwards of 10 49ers games this season I couldn't disagree more. He's a stud that's severely underrated.

I'm going to name a few attributes about him:

Positives:
Hits hard
Makes some plays on the ball

Negatives:
Misses too many tackles
Runs into own teammates
Has inflated sense of self-worth

Sound familiar? Goldson is a nothing more than a slightly upgraded version of Meriweather. He's a boom or bust player like Meriweather, but with a little more boom and just as much bust.

Goldson was in man coverage on Darren Sproles two weeks ago with the 49ers up by 6. Brees threw short to Sproles, Goldson missed the tackle for a minimal gain, and Sproles ran down the field for a 44 yard TD to put the Saints up by 1. There are more, but that's one example where the replay is readily available.

Yesterday, there were two times where Goldson laid out his own teammate who would have otherwise had an interception. One of the hits knocked his teammate out of the game, and that teammate's backup gave up the TD that put the Giants up 17-14. And that just raises bigger questions, like how he "feels" things from the safety spot and how he reacts to what is happening in front of him. The next time he's too focused on the ball and runs into a WR rather than a teammate, then he's getting called for PI and the ball is going to the spot of the penalty anyway.

Chung is at his best in the SS role, not left as the single-high safety. Goldson isn't reliable enough to be trusted back there. We've already had to live through Meriweather. I don't want to do it again. Reliability over flashiness.

 

[cstjohn17]

I think Deaderick has solidified himself as a starter in the 3-4 as a DE next to Vince in 2012, he has looked very impressive the last few weeks.

If we do switch to the 3-4 however, another DE is needed. Shaun Ellis will be 35 and pretty much done, and I'm not sure how Love has looked as a 3-4 DE.

OLB- Yes, a starter is needed across from Ninkovich. I think M. Carter could be a decent player in 2012, but you can't count on that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CB, I don't see a need here. It depends what you think about Moore's potential/Dowling. I could see Dowling and Moore as starters, with Arrington in the nickel.

I agree about your comments about 3-4 DE and OLB. The Patriots front seven looked stout but slow.

Totally disagree about CB.

Moore made a nice play on Evans, after he left Evans wide open. He also made a terrible play on Smith's touchdown. He is a feel good story in the long line of feel good stories that fizzle out (Randall Gay, Earthwind Moreland, etc.).

Even if you like all these guys it is a major need. With todays NFL you can never have too many CBs. I would like to see a mid tier free agent along with another draft pick in the first 3 rounds.

 

[MaineMan]

Well, a couple observations relating to the AFCCG:

That was probably the best I've seen Connolly run-blocking up the middle. As I've posted before, I believe that a significant part of BGE's "regression" this season (statistically, at least) was due to losing Koppen's underrated up-the-gut run-blocking prowess (the Pat's running frequency between the guards was off by about 12% compared to last season). So, as recently as a couple weeks ago, wrt OC, I was looking at ...

* Koppen (UFA, ~ $4.4M cap-hit in 2011, 6th in the league), 33, 6'4"/~300 - not optimally strong against elite interior rushers. but very smart/experienced and still an excellent run-blocker. An ankle injury doesn't seem like it would necessarily prohibit a return to his 2010 form, but would he take a 2-yr deal (probably max offered length) at perhaps a bit less than his 2011 cap-hit? Would he be worth it?

* Connolly (UFA, ~$1.3M in 2011), 30, 6'4"/315 - very solid player with starting experience at OG/OC. Not necessarily a very good run-blocker at OC. He'd be good for the Pats to keep at $2M-$3M per year for the next 2-3 years, but I suspect that some team like the Rams or the Bucs may lure him away with an offer to be their starter at as much as $3.5M or more for 3-5 years - not at all unrealistic (compared to others around the league) for a guy who's shown he can start at BOTH Center and Guard very capably for the Pats. Dan would be stupid to turn down an opportunity to cash-in like that and I don't know that the Pats would match his best offer.

*Wendell (UFA, ~$500k in 2011), 26, 6'2"/290 - decent all-around emergency reserve - this generation's Russ Hochstein. Seems likely he'd stay for another couple years for $1M or so.

McDonald (contract?), 25, 6'4"/315 - developing player, reportedly a very hard worker, better "starter size" than Wendell. Probably at least a cheaper, younger version of Connolly - could be much more after a year or so with Dante.

* Ohrnberger ($565k for 2012, UFA 2013), 26, 6'2"/295 - (IR, "head injury") Didn't show much in 2009, 2010 or 2011 camp.

* There's an outside possibility that Donald Thomas can learn to snap.

But, after seeing what Connolly was able to do yesterday, I've upgraded him to viable, relatively long-term replacement for Koppen. Then, it becomes a $$ question, and, do the Pats have the "next Connolly" already on the roster between McDonald and Thomas?

I've never been behind the idea of spending a 1st on an OC, however, IF for some reason both Koppen and Connolly are gone, then maybe. Now, if Connolly can be persuaded to stick around, I'd say maybe a late-rounder/UDFA or none at all.
---------

WRT the secondary:

I've been among those who've been thinking that that at least a part of McCourty's regression has been poor safety play providing him with little or no help over the top when he was expecting it to be there. However, Moore (who I think is pretty good, BTW) got burned twice in the same way (no help over the top when there SHOULD have been) - when McCourty was playing FS. So, are the problems with that position simply lack of talent? Or are they as much lack of experience in combination with scheme and "read" instructions? If lack of experience is, after all, a significant part of the problem, trying to add yet another young guy to the mix (especially out of a reputedly weak safety class) may not be as good an option as picking up a smart FA. Furthermore, keeping in mind that, as bad as Sergio Brown was in his first year attempting to play deep coverage, even he was really no worse than Meriweather was as a rookie, there's already a lot of development potential at DB on the roster.

Though the game didn't have any effect on this, I believe that the defensive unit where there is NOT a lot of healthy youthful potential on the roster is among the DL "heavies" (300 pounds +/-). Love is fine, Deaderick appears to be making strides. However, aside from Wilfork (in his prime and likely to be very good for a few years yet), there's Brace (!?), two perennial IR lodgers (Wright and Pryor), and two old guys. Warren, though he's been a great rotational guy and situational contributor, he will be 34, and Ellis will be 35 this summer. This seems like prime territory for an infusion of youthful talent, especially if the Pats want to preserve the 3-4 as a legitimate option (note that I pointedly did NOT say "switch back"). I'm looking for guys with some length (6'4"+), proven strength at PoA and good lateral movement. Gap-shooting/penetration cred would be secondary.

The game, especially the disastrous deep ball at Slater (but also the apparent "smothering" of Branch), merely added weight to my conviction that the Pats need some quality youth to work the edges (as Branch and Ocho have excelled at in their careers), as well as be effective on slants, AND be a legitimate deep threat.

Aside from that, another potential edge-rushing DE (regardless what happens with Carter's contract), AND another Ninko-type run-stopping/edge-setting OLB. I consider these to be effectively two separate positions for rookies since the odds of finding a guy who can do both from the get-go are infinitesimal.

Oh, and PLEASE, dear BB, some backup for Gronk and Ahern!

 

[captain stone]

I agree w/ everything you just wrote, MM; though I will add that a backup for Gronk & Hernandez
can be found by either signing a vet FA (Ancient Crumpler, e.g.) or a UDFA.
There's no need to expend a draft pick, even a late-round pick (which we don't have, anyway),
on a blocking-only TE; those guys are a dime-a-dozen.

 

[MaineMan]

I agree w/ everything you just wrote, MM; though I will add that a backup for Gronk & Hernandez
can be found by either signing a vet FA (Ancient Crumpler, e.g.) or a UDFA.
There's no need to expend a draft pick, even a late-round pick (which we don't have, anyway),
on a blocking-only TE; those guys are a dime-a-dozen.

Except that a "dime-a-dozen, blocking-only" TE wouldn't preserve the 2TE attack that Gronk and Ahern provide, should one of them get injured.

Therein lies a conundrum. The demonstrated success of that attack may lead to some overvaluation/overdrafting of TEs, especially receiving TEs, in this draft, as well as FB/H-back types. IIRC, even last draft, guys like Charles Clay went a bit earlier than projected, and BB picked up TWO additional TEs in 2011, both of whom were good blocker who could also catch some and both of whom were immediately snagged off waivers before they could get to the PS, plus a 1st-round OT who had started as a TE, AND re-signed Steve Maneri, another TE-OL convert, as well as dabbling with Garrett Mills and Dorin ****erson on the PS.

All of which means that, if BB wants even a shadow of a legit sub for either Gronk or Ahern, as his actions this past off-season seem to indicate he might, he may need to spend some significant draft ammo. It seems to me that acquiring another TE may not be the casual afterthought for BB that it seems to be in your mind.

 

[Peachhead]

Except that a "dime-a-dozen, blocking-only" TE wouldn't preserve the 2TE attack that Gronk and Ahern provide, should one of them get injured.

Therein lies a conundrum. The demonstrated success of that attack may lead to some overvaluation/overdrafting of TEs, especially receiving TEs, in this draft, as well as FB/H-back types. IIRC, even last draft, guys like Charles Clay went a bit earlier than projected, and BB picked up TWO additional TEs in 2011, both of whom were good blocker who could also catch some and both of whom were immediately snagged off waivers before they could get to the PS, plus a 1st-round OT who had started as a TE, AND re-signed Steve Maneri, another TE-OL convert, as well as dabbling with Garrett Mills and Dorin ****erson on the PS.

All of which means that, if BB wants even a shadow of a legit sub for either Gronk or Ahern, as his actions this past off-season seem to indicate he might, he may need to spend some significant draft ammo. It seems to me that acquiring another TE may not be the casual afterthought for BB that it seems to be in your mind.

You think a legit sub for Gronk and Hernandez could be found that easily? It took BB , what, 9 or 10 years to find those guys. Despite spending many draft picks trying to get something like either one of them. I saw no effort in the offseason of BB looking for a "legit sub" for Gronk or Hernandez. I only saw a halfhearted effort to find a blocking TE. He even cut Crumpler. BB decided to use backup OTs in that role instead.

No, if Gronk or Hernandez are out for any significant time we just change attacks and keep on kicking tail. Just like we did this year when Hernandez was out with a knee injury.

 

[fester]

You think a legit sub for Gronk and Hernandez could be found that easily? It took BB , what, 9 or 10 years to find those guys. Despite spending many draft picks trying to get something like either one of them. I saw no effort in the offseason of BB looking for a "legit sub" for Gronk or Hernandez. I only saw a halfhearted effort to find a blocking TE. He even cut Crumpler. BB decided to use backup OTs in that role instead.

No, if Gronk or Hernandez are out for any significant time we just change attacks and keep on kicking tail. Just like we did this year when Hernandez was out with a knee injury.

Then using this logic (Gronk/Hernandez are not back-up-able), then the Patriots really need to find a legit 4th pass-catching option at some position. The top 3 are set (Welker, Gronk, Hernandez) and then there is a drop-off as everyone else on the roster can be single-covered successfully. The Pats offense is predicated upon having three (or more) guys who can routinely demand extra attention which forces either a 3 man rush to drop 8 OR one or more of Gronk, Hernandez or Welker being in a very winnable 1v1 match-up.

Getting a 4th legit target who can routinely beat 1v1, especially 1v1 against the #2 corner of most teams could be a functional if not a positional back-up for Gronk/Hernandez.

 

[captain stone]

Except that a "dime-a-dozen, blocking-only" TE wouldn't preserve the 2TE attack that Gronk and Ahern provide, should one of them get injured.

Therein lies a conundrum. The demonstrated success of that attack may lead to some overvaluation/overdrafting of TEs, especially receiving TEs, in this draft, as well as FB/H-back types. IIRC, even last draft, guys like Charles Clay went a bit earlier than projected, and BB picked up TWO additional TEs in 2011, both of whom were good blocker who could also catch some and both of whom were immediately snagged off waivers before they could get to the PS, plus a 1st-round OT who had started as a TE, AND re-signed Steve Maneri, another TE-OL convert, as well as dabbling with Garrett Mills and Dorin ****erson on the PS.

All of which means that, if BB wants even a shadow of a legit sub for either Gronk or Ahern, as his actions this past off-season seem to indicate he might, he may need to spend some significant draft ammo. It seems to me that acquiring another TE may not be the casual afterthought for BB that it seems to be in your mind.

I liked ****erson out of UPitt in the 2010 draft; and if Bill hadn't already taken Shake & Bake,
then I would've been hoping that ****erson could've lasted until our 3 7th-round comps.
I look forward to monitoring his progress during TC; perhaps he could be the HBack/3rd TE/6th WR guy
who brings both versatility (i.e., roster-saving space) & production
to the post-OchoStinko/Kid 'n Play Error.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I'm not sure I agree with your choice, there.



Can he Rush the Passer?

Lol. I just realized I did that.

M. Brockers DL LSU, but you knew that.

 

[Peachhead]

Then using this logic (Gronk/Hernandez are not back-up-able), then the Patriots really need to find a legit 4th pass-catching option at some position. The top 3 are set (Welker, Gronk, Hernandez) and then there is a drop-off as everyone else on the roster can be single-covered successfully. The Pats offense is predicated upon having three (or more) guys who can routinely demand extra attention which forces either a 3 man rush to drop 8 OR one or more of Gronk, Hernandez or Welker being in a very winnable 1v1 match-up.

Getting a 4th legit target who can routinely beat 1v1, especially 1v1 against the #2 corner of most teams could be a functional if not a positional back-up for Gronk/Hernandez.

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the O is predicated on having 4 legit targets. Brady/McDaniels got it done with less. (Although one of those pass catchers was a future HOFer.)

But I totally agree with most of your post. IMO, it would make much more sense to draft a WR or two and hope one of them works out well and can be on the field alongside the other studs, then spend significant resources trying to get a guy who would primarily come in only if Gronk or Hernandez were hurt.

PS - But I still want to draft D guys very heavily. That side needs the most.

 

[fester]

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the O is predicated on having 4 legit targets. Brady/McDaniels got it done with less. (Although one of those pass catchers was a future HOFer.)
....

PS - But I still want to draft D guys very heavily. That side needs the most.

My argument is 3 legit targets is what is needed in the current incarnation of the Patriots offense to function at the highest level. And by legit, I mean someone who will abuse single coverage over the course of a game. Right now trying to cover Welker, Gronk or Hernandez 1 v 1 with anyone other than Revis is a fools errand. Safety or zone help is almost always needed. We can't say that about
Branch/Ocho/Edelman/Underwood/Woodhead/Ridley/Law Firm/Solder. They profit from either being able to run to the soft spot in the zone, or winning only a portion of their 1v1 battles that often is aided by the defense selling out against the Big-3.

Most defenses can handle one guy that demands extra attention. Good defenses are able to handle two guys that demand extra attention. Defenses start to breakdown when three guys need extra attention.

So if we assume that the Pats want 3 legit match-up nightmares, a 4th is a very desirable commodity as a functional reserve.

As a side note, the Steelers are in cap trouble. WR Mike Wallace is an upcoming RFA and I don't think the Steelers can afford to franchise him, so the strongest hold on his rights the Steelers may be able to afford if there is no long term deal before the start of free agency would be a 1st round RFA tender. Would he be worth #32 and a 5 year 35 million dollar contract?

 

[rdf63]

My argument is 3 legit targets is what is needed in the current incarnation of the Patriots offense to function at the highest level. And by legit, I mean someone who will abuse single coverage over the course of a game. Right now trying to cover Welker, Gronk or Hernandez 1 v 1 with anyone other than Revis is a fools errand. Safety or zone help is almost always needed. We can't say that about
Branch/Ocho/Edelman/Underwood/Woodhead/Ridley/Law Firm/Solder. They profit from either being able to run to the soft spot in the zone, or winning only a portion of their 1v1 battles that often is aided by the defense selling out against the Big-3.

Most defenses can handle one guy that demands extra attention. Good defenses are able to handle two guys that demand extra attention. Defenses start to breakdown when three guys need extra attention.

So if we assume that the Pats want 3 legit match-up nightmares, a 4th is a very desirable commodity as a functional reserve.

As a side note, the Steelers are in cap trouble. WR Mike Wallace is an upcoming RFA and I don't think the Steelers can afford to franchise him, so the strongest hold on his rights the Steelers may be able to afford if there is no long term deal before the start of free agency would be a 1st round RFA tender. Would he be worth #32 and a 5 year 35 million dollar contract?

Mike Wallace's numbers as a pro:

Year GP REC YDS
2009 16 39 756
2010 16 60 1,257
2011 16 72 1,193

You have a very valid idea and he has solid numbers in the last two years but giving up #32 & a 5-yr $35M is too much. If the Pats did it, what would Welker, Hernandez and Gronk be asking for? He has great speed, 25 yrs old, average size (6'0" 199 lbs), former SEC player but his 2010 numbers are very similar to Brandon Lloyd's who the Pats can get for a much better price.