Depth at LB is pretty good actually.

[Brady6]

I agree that Belichick thinks he has the ability to potentially make the team and contribute. That's why he is on the 90 man roster and will certainly be given a shot. He is an inexpensive option that has a chance, along with the other 20 or UDFA's. That is not the same as thinking that he is likely to make the team. I don't want overstate, he will certainly be given a shot.

Armstead is still only 23 years old; he is a 6’5” 300lb player with athleticism and was productive in college and in the CFL. I would be shocked if he did not make this team or get stashed away on injured reserve, unless Armstead sucks which seems unlikely I do not think Belichick walks away from the young player with a high ceiling. Tommy Kelly and Will Smith are more likely to be released than Armstead in my opinion.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I agree that Belichick thinks he has the ability to potentially make the team and contribute. That's why he is on the 90 man roster and will certainly be given a shot. He is an inexpensive option that has a chance, along with the other 20 or UDFA's. That is not the same as thinking that he is likely to make the team. I don't want overstate, he will certainly be given a shot.

I agree, this is not fantasy football and while Armstead will be given one more chance he is in Ras I-Dowling territory and has to win a job on the field to make it to the 53, and to this point he has nothing to base it on, whereas Jones, Siliga, and Vellano have their play last year going for them. Right now I have Kelly, Wilfork, Easely, Silga and Jones making the team at DT. Vellano and Armstead are on the bubble and one will have to beat out either Jones or Siliga during camp to make the team. I am sure the fanatsy guys will say otherwise because he is really a "first round pick" masquerading as a guy who was signed out of the CFL but to me he's just another UDFA with health issues trying to win a job.

 

[Brady6]

I think some posters should go back and read some of the things they were saying about Armstead when he signed and after OTA last year. The same people cutting him this year were putting him in the pro bowl last year.

 

[mgteich]

I think some posters should go back and read some of the things they were saying about Armstead when he signed and after OTA last year. The same people cutting him this year were putting him in the pro bowl last year.

Folks said that he was an extra 2nd or 3rd round draft choice at a much needed position. That is not calling him a pro-bowler. As with ALL rookies who are injured and do not play their rookie year, the assessment SHOULD be different after being injured and spending the year on IR.

Very few rookies (except the occasional RB or QB) succeed after spending their rookie years on the IR. I've asked how many have ever done this for the patriots. I have received no response. I think that it is a mistake to consider a player to be the same quality prospect before and after being on IR for his rookie year.

 

[mgteich]

Armstead is still only 23 years old; he is a 6’5” 300lb player with athleticism and was productive in college and in the CFL. I would be shocked if he did not make this team or get stashed away on injured reserve, unless Armstead sucks which seems unlikely I do not think Belichick walks away from the young player with a high ceiling. Tommy Kelly and Will Smith are more likely to be released than Armstead in my opinion.

You again invoke the myth of stashing away youngsters on IR. It does NOT happen.

 

[Brady6]

Folks said that he was an extra 2nd or 3rd round draft choice at a much needed position. That is not calling him a pro-bowler. As with ALL rookies who are injured and do not play their rookie year, the assessment SHOULD be different after being injured and spending the year on IR.

Very few rookies (except the occasional RB or QB) succeed after spending their rookie years on the IR. I've asked how many have ever done this for the patriots. I have received no response. I think that it is a mistake to consider a player to be the same quality prospect before and after being on IR for his rookie year.

I think you should read some of the threads; they were more ambitious than you remember. Even if it was as you say, a player viewed as a second or third round pick cut after one season without ever taking a snap seems very unlikely to me. What is the difference between a player going on injured reserve in year one and going on it in year 5?

 

[Brady6]

You again invoke the myth of stashing away youngsters on IR. It does NOT happen.

If Belichick was willing to keep Steve Beauharnais, Chris Barker, Jake Bequette, and DJ Williams on the roster last year for their potential I would be amazed if he could not find a way to retain Armstead.

 

[mgteich]

If Belichick was willing to keep Steve Beauharnais, Chris Barker, Jake Bequette, and DJ Williams on the roster last year for their potential I would be amazed if he could not find a way to retain Armstead.

If there were better prospects, none of the players you mentioned would have been retained, except perhaps Bequette because he was a high draft choice.

There are two simple "truths".

1) Rookies who spend their rookie years on IR rarely become major contributors, although a few do stay another year or so. The situation of rookie UDFA's is even more precarious. Maybe Armstead will be the exception, or perhaps not.

2) If Armstead beats out the competition, he will be on the 53. There will definitely be roster spots available for him to compete for.

We have focused on the DT position, where there are 5 players ready to go, albeit with various levels of injury. If the big 3 are healthy, perhaps Armstead can beat out Jones for a roster spot. He would be competing against Chris Jones, Vellano and Forston for the last spot. If one of the top 3 isn't ready to go, then Chris Jones would likely make the roster, and may make it in any case.

At DE, the situation is much more open. We have 2 starters. Then we have Buchanan, Smith, Bequette and Moore. We will carry 2-3 beyond the starters.

 

[Brady6]

1) Rookies who spend their rookie years on IR rarely become major contributors, although a few do stay another year or so. The situation of rookie UDFA's is even more precarious. Maybe Armstead will be the exception, or perhaps not.

What exactly are you basing that on? If a player is injured whether he is a rookie or a veteran, he goes on injured reserve. If anything, the younger player has a better chance of making a full recovery because of his age.

2) If Armstead beats out the competition, he will be on the 53. There will definitely be roster spots available for him to compete for.

We have focused on the DT position, where there are 5 players ready to go, albeit with various levels of injury. If the big 3 are healthy, perhaps Armstead can beat out Jones for a roster spot. He would be competing against Chris Jones, Vellano and Forston for the last spot. If one of the top 3 isn't ready to go, then Chris Jones would likely make the roster, and may make it in any case.

Belichick is going to keep the players he feels best about no matter the position, if he wants to keep an extra DL he will. Armstead does not have to beat out Jones or Siliga to make this roster the Patriots could keep all 3 and carry 6 DL knowing that Easley and Armstead can also play DE, along with Wilfork and Kelly being at the end of their careers.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Belichick could choose to carry 11 or 12 defensive linemen and fewer linebackers and defensive backs. Is that your suggestion?

My suggestion is 10 DL, 5 LB, 5 corners, and 5 safeties. History says that I have too few linebackers. But this is a zero sum game. You could steal positions from the offense, but that is NOT a good idea.

Obviously, the last few roster spots COULD go to any position, even to developmental players who would never expect to be active. Beauharnais and Bequette were such players last year.

What exactly are you basing that on? If a player is injured whether he is a rookie or a veteran, he goes on injured reserve. If anything, the younger player has a better chance of making a full recovery because of his age.

Belichick is going to keep the players he feels best about no matter the position, if he wants to keep an extra DL he will. Armstead does not have to beat out Jones or Siliga to make this roster the Patriots could keep all 3 and carry 6 DL knowing that Easley and Armstead can also play DE, along with Wilfork and Kelly being at the end of their careers.

 

[mgteich]

Your THEORY, based on reasonable logic, is that rookies should have great chance of recovery for IR and should therefore be able to be starters and stars.

Theories are nice, they really are. But theories must be matched by supporting data.

NOW, please list a couple of patriot rookies who have been put on IR and who subsequently have been contributors for us. We put a dozen or more on IR every year. Surely, there are some.

The reality is that losing the first year of transition to the NFL is often career-killing, and always puts the player at an extreme disadvantage (with the possible exception of RB's and QB's).

And yes, I understand that the patriots are slow to cut loose youngsters that are injured, hoping that they will overcome the loss of a year (see Crable and Dowling).

What exactly are you basing that on? If a player is injured whether he is a rookie or a veteran, he goes on injured reserve. If anything, the younger player has a better chance of making a full recovery because of his age.

 

[Brady6]

Yes, Belichick could choose to carry 11 or 12 defensive linemen and fewer linebackers and defensive backs. Is that your suggestion?

My suggestion is 10 DL, 5 LB, 5 corners, and 5 safeties. History says that I have too few linebackers. But this is a zero sum game. You could steal positions from the offense, but that is NOT a good idea.

Obviously, the last few roster spots COULD go to any position, even to developmental players who would never expect to be active. Beauharnais and Bequette were such players last year.

I do not have a direct line to Belichick to make any suggestions…

I need to see some players on the field in camp before I can tell you what I would suggest. Currently all I can say is I had high aspirations for Armond Armstead in 2013 and unfortunately he suffered a setback with the infection, given that it was an infection and not a major injury that kept him off the field I continue to have high aspirations for him. He is only 23 years old with a lot of upside, he dominated in the CFL and was highly sought after when we signed him.

 

[Brady6]

Your THEORY, based on reasonable logic, is that rookies should have great chance of recovery for IR and should therefore be able to be starters and stars.

Theories are nice, they really are. But theories must be matched by supporting data.

NOW, please list a couple of patriot rookies who have been put on IR and who subsequently have been contributors for us. We put a dozen or more on IR every year. Surely, there are some.

The reality is that losing the first year of transition to the NFL is often career-killing, and always puts the player at an extreme disadvantage (with the possible exception of RB's and QB's).

And yes, I understand that the patriots are slow to cut loose youngsters that are injured, hoping that they will overcome the loss of a year (see Crable and Dowling).

Did it ever occur to you that Dowling and Crable were just incapable of performing in the NFL? I do not think it really matters when they go on injured reserve, year one or year 12 it is all the same, they miss a season of football and need to rehab and build up to get back on the field. Look at Vereen he barely saw the field as rookie, Cannon did not come off PUP until week 11 his rookie year, players such as Amendola came up through the practice squad. There is no one path to the NFL.

Is Armstead a lock to make this team, no but I would say he has an excellent shot, he has 12+ months under his belt with our coaching staff and conditioning staff, and he has come back from being out of football before so it is not adversity he has never experienced.

 

[mgteich]

Hope is fine thing.

To be clear, you think that Armstead will be the first patriot rookie spend his rookie year on IR and then be a contributor.

Everyone thinks that he has a shot. An "excellent" shot is another thing entirely.

In any case, there will be lots and lots of competition for roster spots, especially in the defensive front seven.

Is Armstead a lock to make this team, no but I would say he has an excellent shot, he has 12+ months under his belt with our coaching staff and conditioning staff, and he has come back from being out of football before so it is not adversity he has never experienced.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I don't think of AA as a rookie. He is a pro football vet from Canada, probably to be viewed more like Cameron Wake,and like Wake a Star there.

 

[Brady6]

Hope is fine thing.

To be clear, you think that Armstead will be the first patriot rookie spend his rookie year on IR and then be a contributor.

Everyone thinks that he has a shot. An "excellent" shot is another thing entirely.

In any case, there will be lots and lots of competition for roster spots, especially in the defensive front seven.

Every year there are rookies who miss the season, come back year two, and excel. I do not think Armstead would be the first; we fortunately have not had a ton of players miss the preseason and regular season.

I think he has an excellent shot. Here is the thing I noticed about you MG, you like veterans, I am not sure why I think it is because you are older and retired and maybe you align with them better, or maybe you just like the sure thing more than the possibility. I am sort of the opposite, I like potential, it excites me, I like to see young players develop as Edelman did last and so many other have in the past. You and I only really get into disagreements about these type of scenarios and honestly, I think it just comes down to a philosophical approach as a fan. Neither approach is right or wrong we just put our hope and expectations in certain players more than others.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, there is one defensive star in the NFL that came from the CFL. Wake gives guys like Armstead hope and a chance at NFL contracts.

I suspect that there are Southern Cal graduates in the NFL than there are CFL players. The quality is not good; and yes, a few players do make it into the NFL.

That being said, I think it a bit overstated to call Armstead a football vet. He played in Canada for one year and was out one year on the NFL IR.

I don't think of AA as a rookie. He is a pro football vet from Canada, probably to be viewed more like Cameron Wake,and like Wake a Star there.

 

[supafly]

You again invoke the myth of stashing away youngsters on IR. It does NOT happen.

Are you suggesting that there's no such thing as the "Foxborough Flu?"

While this is something that we'll never know about for sure, a common sense perspective exists that may point otherwise when it comes to red shirting players or retaining their rights for lesser injury than has been suggested when placed on IR.

There's nothing "wrong" per se about it, especially when roster spots are at such a premium, but there is definitely some grey area here depending on personal opinion. In other words, there are some players who could return by October, but since they aren't expected to contribute much anyway, they will be placed on IR. Call it what you want, and you'd be right in pointing out that every single team does it, but it definitely happens.

We've also seen the choice to leave a player on PUP for the entire year, which often voids their contractual year like in the case of Myron Pryor. Same decision, different designation.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Are you suggesting that there's no such thing as the "Foxborough Flu?"

While this is something that we'll never know about for sure, a common sense perspective exists that may point otherwise when it comes to red shirting players or retaining their rights for lesser injury than has been suggested when placed on IR.

There's nothing "wrong" per se about it, especially when roster spots are at such a premium, but there is definitely some grey area here depending on personal opinion. In other words, there are some players who could return by October, but since they aren't expected to contribute much anyway, they will be placed on IR. Call it what you want, and you'd be right in pointing out that every single team does it, but it definitely happens.

We've also seen the choice to leave a player on PUP for the entire year, which often voids their contractual year like in the case of Myron Pryor. Same decision, different designation.

Yes, Belichick could choose to carry 11 or 12 defensive linemen and fewer linebackers and defensive backs. Is that your suggestion?

My suggestion is 10 DL, 5 LB, 5 corners, and 5 safeties. History says that I have too few linebackers. But this is a zero sum game. You could steal positions from the offense, but that is NOT a good idea.

Obviously, the last few roster spots COULD go to any position, even to developmental players who would never expect to be active. Beauharnais and Bequette were such players last year.

Not speaking for MG but i believe it has more to do with Patriot rookies who have real IR injuries who come back to have productive careers, and the truth is that no one can name those who did to this point. There may be some out there but they certainly aren't obvious. I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to rooting for what could be but in this situation the end result is usually disappointing, and declaring a guy who hasn't played a down for them and missed his rookie year with them a lock of some sort makes no sense at all, and that was what instigated this whole discussion. Armstead has a shot but has to make the most of it, at this point he's below Vellano and forston for a roster spot and has to beat out more than those two to actually win one.

 

[mgteich]

Well, there was the mighty Kliff Kingsbury.

To the degree that there is a "Foxborough Flu", it is a failed strategy. I know of no patriots who has spent his rookie year on IR and then had a productive career.

Are you suggesting that there's no such thing as the "Foxborough Flu?"

While this is something that we'll never know about for sure, a common sense perspective exists that may point otherwise when it comes to red shirting players or retaining their rights for lesser injury than has been suggested when placed on IR.

There's nothing "wrong" per se about it, especially when roster spots are at such a premium, but there is definitely some grey area here depending on personal opinion. In other words, there are some players who could return by October, but since they aren't expected to contribute much anyway, they will be placed on IR. Call it what you want, and you'd be right in pointing out that every single team does it, but it definitely happens.

We've also seen the choice to leave a player on PUP for the entire year, which often voids their contractual year like in the case of Myron Pryor. Same decision, different designation.