Defensive End Disappointment

[One-If-By-Sea]

He suffered the ACL in preseason of last year and has gotten on to the field with just a limited number of snaps. My intuition tells me something else is going on... or maybe he just sucks.

Kontra - he was a monster in the 2017 pre-season so your intuition must be wrong. See I win!!

 

[Hyped]

Simon seems to have had a good game. It is a sample of one, but I am always amazed there are guys sitting at home on their couch that can sign and play in one week and have a very positive impact.

Probably because they are difficult to game plan for. Most of those guys "cool off" after a few games are put on tape.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

John Simon is a journeyman who had a great college career.

And a great first game as a Patriot! We always say "so and so" does not fit the Pats scheme. Maybe John Simon does fit the Pats scheme. We will see.

 

[Hyped]

Comments:

1.) The OP might be off base, but I sure as hell would like more pressure....we looked a lot better on Sunday...but I'd like to see more of what we saw from week 1.

2.) Grissom should not be out snapping Rivers. Something is up, IMO.

3.) Clayborn...a bit disappointing...even if I expected him to be a 5-6 sack guy this year (not all in one game like last year).

 

[jah]

Not really a well thought out post but I do agree that Clayborn and Rivers should be giving us more while Davis has played his way onto the inactive list.

I feel pretty good about Flowers and Wise, though, and I think Simon will be solid throughout the year as well.

 

[Sciz]

Comments:

1.) The OP might be off base, but I sure as hell would like more pressure....we looked a lot better on Sunday...but I'd like to see more of what we saw from week 1.

2.) Grissom should not be out snapping Rivers. Something is up, IMO.

3.) Clayborn...a bit disappointing...even if I expected him to be a 5-6 sack guy this year (not all in one game like last year).

Grissom has played more than Rivers because he was active at Jacksonville, when they needed to add a guy to the rotation due to Flowers' injury and the heat. When both were active in week 3, Rivers played 13 snaps to Grissom's 3.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Damn those Patriots. They should be 4-0.

For those of you that wish to resign (Satire)

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Rivers showed NFL-ready traits, crazy production & was a very coachable by all accounts. Worked hard all the time & seemed like one of the nicest guys off the field. Always talking about religion, helping others etc

A pure pass rusher but was NOT a bad run defender in college .. if you watched him.

In what little action he showed, this year/last year, he looked pretty good.

The bodies in front of him have been poor and at times, that's being nice.

That's what we know. We also haven't heard anything negative out of the press saying"he can't do this/that" etc

Idk what's going on but I'm definitely not writing him off.

I'd love to know what the plan was short/long term?

They obviously liked the player & this one came w a ton of potential along w qualities that you could win w in the present.

Again the bodies in front of him have been awful at times so why not see what you have?

That said there's few teams in the league that value pass rushers less than NE who is the ultimate counter puncher in all regards. We know Bill does his own thing in all aspects so maybe it's something the coach just can't get by? Who knows?

That said every game, every team needs one to really get after the QB. Hopefully we'll see 95 getting more reps soon.

 

[Ring 6]

Rivers showed NFL-ready traits, crazy production & was a very coachable by all accounts. Worked hard all the time & seemed like one of the nicest guys off the field. Always talking about religion, helping others etc

A pure pass rusher but was NOT a bad run defender in college .. if you watched him.

In what little action he showed, this year/last year, he looked pretty good.

The bodies in front of him have been poor and at times, that's being nice.

That's what we know. We also haven't heard anything negative out of the press saying"he can't do this/that" etc

Idk what's going on but I'm definitely not writing him off.

I'd love to know what the plan was short/long term?

They obviously liked the player & this one came w a ton of potential along w qualities that you could win w in the present.

Again the bodies in front of him have been awful at times so why not see what you have?

That said there's few teams in the league that value pass rushers less than NE who is the ultimate counter puncher in all regards. We know Bill does his own thing in all aspects so maybe it's something the coach just can't get by? Who knows?

That said every game, every team needs one to really get after the QB. Hopefully we'll see 95 getting more reps soon.

I think a lot has to do with making a huge jump from lower level college ball, missing a year of football and recovering from a severe injury. I believe we are also in the midst of experimenting with scheme and players.
I expect that he will get more opportunities as the year progresses, even if it’s only a role in obvious passing situations. But if you think about it Belichick has never been big on using guys in only those situations, tending to use guys he is comfortable using at any stage of the game. That’s my impression at least. It seems we rarely have that platoon guy who comes in on 3rd and long or 2 minute.

 

[DarrylS]

I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong if someone can provide some actual criteria to demonstrate that the DEs have been productive. Some have said that pressures or hurries are a good indicator...fair enough. Show me the hurries and pressures and how they compare to some other time/team/etc and I will accept it. Right now, no one has responded with any actual stats.

Eye test? Outside of John Simon and Wise....has anyone looked good? Not according to my "eye". How about Clayborn? Has he looked good?

Again, I'm open to evidence. Prove me wrong.

This reminds me of the classic Seymour argument that took place a few years ago, people would get all wound up and ***** about how poorly he played because he did not show up in the Stat Box.. then midweek BB would go to the podium and heap tons of praise on him telling the media and fans what a great job he did. DE stats do not mean a lot in this system, what does count is holding the edge and doing your job..

Numbers do not reveal a lot for this position... it cannot be proven, because fans do not know the assignment and expectations, that changes every week..

Rivers had 13 snaps with no stats does not mean a lot as we do not know what his assignment was and what was expected of him..

 

[Deus Irae]

It looks like we have a total of (7) players that play Defensive End for our team and the results so far have been very disappointing for me. I thought it would be a "team strength" but it seems to be, once again, a team weakness. Including recently acquired John Simon (who was the team's best DE last week with 5 tackles and 1 sack), the Patriots have a total of 26 tackles and 5 sacks over 4 games from the Defensive Ends. That's (7) Defensive Ends.....that's very poor. Yes, there have been some injuries but still...way below expectations.

The main culprits have been Clayborn (with a grand total of zero sacks and a single tackle), Rivers (who can't seem to get on the field), and Davis (zero sacks and 3 tackles).

I hope we see a turnaround because this will kill us if/when we reach the playoffs.

My apologies to you for the 4 clowns (so far) who down voted your post. That was just ridiculous of them.

 

[Jimke]

The fact that three of the inactive players were defensive ends ( Davis, Grissom, and Rivers) and a player who was signed a few days ago (Simon) played says something
about the defensive situation. It is true both Davis and Rivers are essentially rookies.
I thought Simon may be a pretty good signing. His experience showed.

 

[maineman209]

So what is this in relation to for comparison?

WTF, Dude?? You want me to do all your work for you? Are you somehow incapacitated to the degree that you can't do your own research?

After all, YOU are the one making the claims/accusations. That makes YOU the prosecution and, by rights, the one who has to prove your case. Since I just shared some "discovery" with you, you should be thanking me.

Regardless, as others have noted, your entire premise is off-target. In the various iterations and permutations of the Patriots defenses over the years, QB pressure has never been the task of the DEs alone - not even primarily the DEs. It's always been a group effort from the Pats' Front 6/7, unlike other teams' defenses.

 

[maineman209]

The fact that three of the inactive players were defensive ends ( Davis, Grissom, and Rivers) and a player who was signed a few days ago (Simon) played says something
about the defensive situation. It is true both Davis and Rivers are essentially rookies.
I thought Simon may be a pretty good signing. His experience showed.

Grissom was injured, and I'm pretty sure it was legit since he's a fairly high-use special teamer (3 units) and the team is still a bit short on those, especially with Bentley on IR now.

Agree with you 100% on Davis and Rivers. Expectations have been especially high for Rivers, but it's always what a player shows in practice that determines whether or not he's active for the game over someone else. Apparently, neither of them are quite there yet.

 

[maineman209]

Wise, Clayborn and Flowers is a solid DE rotation. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Eye test? Watch the Dolphins game. They set the edge kept all that speed on the Dolphins inside for the big boys and linebackers to deal with. They're fine.

Davis is a surprise contributor coming on as a UDA. He has a bigger upside as an OLB than DE in my opinion, but a long way to go in pass coverage. Grissom and Rivers are decent backups. John Simon is a journeyman who had a great college career.

IDK about Davis as an OLB. He's 6030/280 (and slow). WillieMac was great at OLB/Elephant rusher in Crennel's 3-4 back in the day, but, y'know, not everybody is WillieMac.

Meanwhile, after the Texans poached him off the Ravens PS in 2014, Simon was very productive for most of three seasons as a rotational OLB/pass-rusher in Crennel's 3-4 in Houston (and Simon's LB coach was Vrabel ... bonus!). He signed with IND as a UFA last season (3 years, $13.5M) and was also very productive as a starter for nine games in their 3-4 defense until a shoulder injury sent him to IR. The Colts switched to a 4-3 this season and ultimately release Simon during cutdowns (they'd previously released Hankins and a couple other 3-4 type players).

 

[maineman209]

I am always amazed there are guys sitting at home on their couch that can sign and play in one week and have a very positive impact.

Simon played in Crennel's 3-4 in Houston from 2014-2016. And his LB coach was Vrabel. He might have had a little head start on learning his role here.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Simon played in Crennel's 3-4 in Houston from 2014-2016. And his LB coach was Vrabel. He might have had a little head start on learning his role here.

Without a doubt.

 

[RobertWeathers]

IDK about Davis as an OLB. He's 6030/280 (and slow). WillieMac was great at OLB/Elephant rusher in Crennel's 3-4 back in the day, but, y'know, not everybody is WillieMac.

Meanwhile, after the Texans poached him off the Ravens PS in 2014, Simon was very productive for most of three seasons as a rotational OLB/pass-rusher in Crennel's 3-4 in Houston (and Simon's LB coach was Vrabel ... bonus!). He signed with IND as a UFA last season (3 years, $13.5M) and was also very productive as a starter for nine games in their 3-4 defense until a shoulder injury sent him to IR. The Colts switched to a 4-3 this season and ultimately release Simon during cutdowns (they'd previously released Hankins and a couple other 3-4 type players).

I wonder if they are seeing Rivers as more of a stand-up player which is why they are being slow with him.

Much to learn about the running and passing game hes does (with a Yoda voice)

 

[mgteich]

And what does it say? That our top DE's are Flowers, Wise and Clayborne? I am absolutely fine with having those 3 get all the reps at DE, except for the occasional DT playing DE is some sets.

I never excepted anything at DE from Davis or Grissom. Rivers is trying to be the first to be a serious contributor after spending his rookie year on IR. He isn't making the grade, or rather a journeyman from another team is already ahead of him on the depth chart. I actually was hoping that Rivers could contribute at OLB where there is more need. IMHO, we are all set at DE as long as Flowers, Wise and Clayborne remain healthy.

The fact that three of the inactive players were defensive ends ( Davis, Grissom, and Rivers) and a player who was signed a few days ago (Simon) played says something
about the defensive situation. It is true both Davis and Rivers are essentially rookies.
I thought Simon may be a pretty good signing. His experience showed.

 

[mgteich]

My apologies to you for the 4 clowns (so far) who down voted your post. That was just ridiculous of them.

I didn't vote down his post.

HOWEVER, I think that is unreasonable to expect meaningful production from the #4, #5, #6 and #7 DE's. We should be celebrating that we now have a #4 DE who can take some decent reps at DE (Simon).