Defensive End Disappointment

[RI Patriots fan]

It looks like we have a total of (7) players that play Defensive End for our team and the results so far have been very disappointing for me. I thought it would be a "team strength" but it seems to be, once again, a team weakness. Including recently acquired John Simon (who was the team's best DE last week with 5 tackles and 1 sack), the Patriots have a total of 26 tackles and 5 sacks over 4 games from the Defensive Ends. That's (7) Defensive Ends.....that's very poor. Yes, there have been some injuries but still...way below expectations.

The main culprits have been Clayborn (with a grand total of zero sacks and a single tackle), Rivers (who can't seem to get on the field), and Davis (zero sacks and 3 tackles).

I hope we see a turnaround because this will kill us if/when we reach the playoffs.

 

[Ring 6]

It looks like we have a total of (7) players that play Defensive End for our team and the results so far have been very disappointing for me. I thought it would be a "team strength" but it seems to be, once again, a team weakness. Including recently acquired John Simon (who was the team's best DE last week with 5 tackles and 1 sack), the Patriots have a total of 26 tackles and 5 sacks over 4 games from the Defensive Ends. That's (7) Defensive Ends.....that's very poor. Yes, there have been some injuries but still...way below expectations.

The main culprits have been Clayborn (with a grand total of zero sacks and a single tackle), Rivers (who can't seem to get on the field), and Davis (zero sacks and 3 tackles).

I hope we see a turnaround because this will kill us if/when we reach the playoffs.

We don’t play 7 DEs at a time. In fact we don’t play 2 all the time.
We have played 255 downs of defense and those players have played a combined 464 snaps.
That is the equivalent of 1.82 DEs
5 sacks in 4 games is 20 in a season.
20 sacks from less than 2 DEs is not that bad.
As with any other stat you need to apply context.

And as far as trying to judge a defender by tackles, I’m not even going to touch that.

 

[Wordsmyth]

Troll-thread starter disappointment.

 

[DaBruinz]

It looks like we have a total of (7) players that play Defensive End for our team and the results so far have been very disappointing for me. I thought it would be a "team strength" but it seems to be, once again, a team weakness. Including recently acquired John Simon (who was the team's best DE last week with 5 tackles and 1 sack), the Patriots have a total of 26 tackles and 5 sacks over 4 games from the Defensive Ends. That's (7) Defensive Ends.....that's very poor. Yes, there have been some injuries but still...way below expectations.

The main culprits have been Clayborn (with a grand total of zero sacks and a single tackle), Rivers (who can't seem to get on the field), and Davis (zero sacks and 3 tackles).

I hope we see a turnaround because this will kill us if/when we reach the playoffs.

Judging the DE position solely based on tackles and sacks is utterly ridiculous. QB Hits and QB Hurries need to be taken into consideration. As does the fact that D-line is two-gapping, which means they aren't supposed to rack up being tackle numbers. That's falls to the LBs.

You knocking Rivers is hilarious and totally ignores the fact that he's essentially still a rookie and that he's coming off a major ACL injury.

Though Clayborn wasn't given the assist, he was responsible for causing a sack in the game against Miami.

 

[Soliel]

I disagree with this line of thinking. Quantum physics has proven that thought effects matter. Don’t think bad things into existence

 

[RobertWeathers]

In 2016, Flowers, Sheard, Nink and Long produced 20 sacks and 85 tackles. In a combined 59 games played that equates to .34 sacks and 1.45 tackles per game. Followers of the team thought that was a good unit.

The current unit of Wise, Flowers, Clayborn and Simon have a combined 11 games played and are averaging .45 sacks and 1.09 tackles per game. That is a projection of 20 sacks and 52 tackles this year.

I don't have total pressure or hurry numbers.

The point is they are not far off that pace

I would agree Clayborn has been off to a slow start but no one should have expected him to be a sackmaster here anyway. I don't think hes been terrible.

For this team to be successful Wise and Flowers need to be healthy.

Who knows what they have in Simon. Seems like a decent rotational guy.

 

[Oswlek]

When the entire team shat the bed for two of the four game sample, why would you expect the results to be impressive? If they are closer to the squad that took down Houston and Miami, they'll be fine. If it's the other end of the spectrum, they won't. Time will tell.

 

[signbabybrady]

Pressures been pretty good in the wins and not so great in the losses. Flowers presence likely not a coincidence.

I expected this to be better than so far but it has been ok. Hopefully plays better as the weeks go on.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

The box score will show that Mike Vrabel had 0 sacks in Super Bowl 36. But his pressure on Warner that caused Ty Law's pick 6 was one of the biggest plays of the game.

 

[Kontradiction]

Nobody is going to shake in their boots from what the Pats throw at them at DE, but it's a rotation of rushers. Putting those numbers in context that way might help. I'm supremely disappointed in Rivers so far, though.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Seems to me that DE is a position where the Pats are getting about what you would expect given the talent level. Flowers is great, Wise is a good role player with potential to be a bit more than that. The others are a collection of mediocrities and scrubs. Grissom is ST only, Davis looks like an undrafted caliber player, Clayborn is a career mediocrity who, other than one 6 sack game against a backup tackle, has never been a consistent rusher and Rivers looks like a bust (common in the 3rd round as we have seen with Grissom, Bequette and Crable)

The only guy to be disappointed by is Rivers but he showed very little in camp worth getting excited about. A major injury and missing a whole year of development can derail your career (Davis is in the same boat but was a bit better in camp).

Unless you have baseless optimism for these guys, you should be happy with what they’ve given. The lack of overall performance comes down to a lack of quality player opposite Flowers, maybe Wise can be that guy.

 

[maineman209]

Wise, 126 snaps = 2.5 SK, 2 QBH, 1 STUFF ... 8 tackles
Davis, 105 snaps = 1 QBH, 2 PRS, 1 STUFF ... 3 tackles
Clayborn, 92 snaps = 3 QBH, 2 PRS, drew hold ... 1 tackle
Flowers, 85 snaps = 1.5 SK, 3QBH, 3 PRS, 1 FF, 2 STUFFS, drew hold ... 8 tackles
Grissom, 23 snaps = 1 PRS
Simon, 20 snaps = 1 SK, 1 QBH ... 5 tackles
Rivers, 13 snaps = (no stats)

The Pats have played roughly 267 defensive snaps over four games.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong if someone can provide some actual criteria to demonstrate that the DEs have been productive. Some have said that pressures or hurries are a good indicator...fair enough. Show me the hurries and pressures and how they compare to some other time/team/etc and I will accept it. Right now, no one has responded with any actual stats.

Eye test? Outside of John Simon and Wise....has anyone looked good? Not according to my "eye". How about Clayborn? Has he looked good?

Again, I'm open to evidence. Prove me wrong.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Nobody is going to shake in their boots from what the Pats throw at them at DE, but it's a rotation of rushers. Putting those numbers in context that way might help. I'm supremely disappointed in Rivers so far, though.

Coming off an ACL I am not sure we can be disappointed. They held him out a few games - might just be a longer than 12 month rehab for him considering explosion is part of his game?

Simon seems to have had a good game. It is a sample of one, but I am always amazed there are guys sitting at home on their couch that can sign and play in one week and have a very positive impact.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Wise, 126 snaps = 2.5 SK, 2 QBH, 1 STUFF ... 8 tackles
Davis, 105 snaps = 1 QBH, 2 PRS, 1 STUFF ... 3 tackles
Clayborn, 92 snaps = 3 QBH, 2 PRS, drew hold ... 1 tackle
Flowers, 85 snaps = 1.5 SK, 3QBH, 3 PRS, 1 FF, 2 STUFFS, drew hold ... 8 tackles
Grissom, 23 snaps = 1 PRS
Simon, 20 snaps = 1 SK, 1 QBH ... 5 tackles
Rivers, 13 snaps = (no stats)

The Pats have played roughly 267 defensive snaps over four games.

So what is this in relation to for comparison?

 

[Clonamery]

So what is this in relation to for comparison?

It's in relation to your all knowing eye test.

 

[Joey007]

I’m actually pretty happy with what I see from Flowers and Wise. Also like what I saw from Simon last week.

Clayborn has been pretty meh so far though, and very disappointed in Rivers.

That about sums it up. If Clayborn can up his game a little down the stretch, then I think we have a pretty good DE rotation. It cannot be stressed enough how important a good DE rotation is.

 

[Kontradiction]

Coming off an ACL I am not sure we can be disappointed. They held him out a few games - might just be a longer than 12 month rehab for him considering explosion is part of his game?

Simon seems to have had a good game. It is a sample of one, but I am always amazed there are guys sitting at home on their couch that can sign and play in one week and have a very positive impact.

He suffered the ACL in preseason of last year and has gotten on to the field with just a limited number of snaps. My intuition tells me something else is going on... or maybe he just sucks.

 

[Clonamery]

He suffered the ACL in preseason of last year and has gotten on to the field with just a limited number of snaps. My intuition tells me something else is going on... or maybe he just sucks.

Prove me wrong: Jake Bequette stole his identity.

 

[goheels22002]

Wise, Clayborn and Flowers is a solid DE rotation. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Eye test? Watch the Dolphins game. They set the edge kept all that speed on the Dolphins inside for the big boys and linebackers to deal with. They're fine.

Davis is a surprise contributor coming on as a UDA. He has a bigger upside as an OLB than DE in my opinion, but a long way to go in pass coverage. Grissom and Rivers are decent backups. John Simon is a journeyman who had a great college career.