Defense

[patsox23]

O.K. Now I see it - If I do not say NE is 19-0 this year then I am pretty much wrong about everything

This is a pathetic, annoying and totally LAME response. YOU lose when you post garbage like this. Please stop arguing like a middle schooler.

 

[AllabouttheVinces]

I'll go on record against this. What BBs defense predicates itself on is the "bend but dont break" style with playmakers making big plays(TURNOVERS!). Samuel is gone, and while we have replaced his body and we do have better team speed individual plays made by rookies will add up. We have fewer playmakers on D. Alot of our D last year was predicated by the offense getting a lead and making the opponent one dimensional. Closer games will lend a more balanced opponent and I think more yards and points. And seeing that the most important drive the D will face(again) is THE LAST ONE....getting the right balance on the field that leaves gas in the tank for that drive is what counts, not any type of totally dominant D. I dont think the 04 team will be topped anytime soon.

Let's go back to what Jeff said. Though he made several good points, he got hammered on this board. Let me go to his defense.

We lost Seau, Colvin, Samuel and Gay. What did they put up last year?

INT 13
Forced fumbles 4
Sacks 7.5
TDs 2

So the Pats forced 31 turnovers last year, and 17 of them are gone.

Another factor in the Pats being #4 in scoring defense last year was that the offense led the NFL in time of possession (which, of course, was aided by the 31 turnovers forced). That is unlikely to be repeated, given the weaknesses on the OL and the downgrade of the WR corps (Stallworth's 46 receptions replaced by Gaffney, who is replaced by CJ Jones).

Andy, I love your optimism, but I just don't see how we recover the 17 lost turnovers by replacing the 4 names above with rookies Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite. Those guys may be Pro Bowlers someday, but not in '08.

 

[ausbacker]

Let's go back to what Jeff said. Though he made several good points, he got hammered on this board. Let me go to his defense.

We lost Seau, Colvin, Samuel and Gay. What did they put up last year?

INT 13
Forced fumbles 4
Sacks 7.5
TDs 2

So the Pats forced 31 turnovers last year, and 17 of them are gone.

Another factor in the Pats being #4 in scoring defense last year was that the offense led the NFL in time of possession (which, of course, was aided by the 31 turnovers forced). That is unlikely to be repeated, given the weaknesses on the OL and the downgrade of the WR corps (Stallworth's 46 receptions replaced by Gaffney, who is replaced by CJ Jones).

Andy, I love your optimism, but I just don't see how we recover the 17 lost turnovers by replacing the 4 names above with rookies Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite. Those guys may be Pro Bowlers someday, but not in '08.

Luckily the first 5 games are against mickey mouse opposition and we get to "blood" the rookies into their first NFL seasons with a reportedly easy schedule.

Come the second half of the season, with real game time behind them, the D will be fine.

Talent is one thing, clutch execution is another.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'll go on record against this. What BBs defense predicates itself on is the "bend but dont break" style with playmakers making big plays(TURNOVERS!). Samuel is gone, and while we have replaced his body and we do have better team speed individual plays made by rookies will add up. We have fewer playmakers on D. Alot of our D last year was predicated by the offense getting a lead and making the opponent one dimensional. Closer games will lend a more balanced opponent and I think more yards and points. And seeing that the most important drive the D will face(again) is THE LAST ONE....getting the right balance on the field that leaves gas in the tank for that drive is what counts, not any type of totally dominant D. I dont think the 04 team will be topped anytime soon.

BB's defense is NOT based on playmakers making " BIG PLAYS". Its predicated on each person doing the job they are assigned and not deviating from that job.

For you to say the team has fewer playermakers is horsesh!t unless you can see the future. Since I know you can't you are just spewing your glass half empty crap in another thread.

Giving up more yards does not equate to giving up more points. We've proven this again and again.

Samuel was a risk-taker. And he was burned as often as he made big plays. And, let me remind you that he got burned twice in the SB by David Tyree and he drooped the game ending TD. Samuel was, very much, a product of this system. I've said it for the past 2 years. That the D-line was responsible for many of Samuel's TDs. I stand by that.

I think that you will see that this year's defense will be better than last years. And not because the offense puts up a ton of points and the other team is forced to throw more often. It will be because they make plays.

 

[DaBruinz]

I dont have the numbers or the time now to look em up...but knowledge of the system and being better playmakers--Samuel, Colvin, Gay and Seau(combined for like 4 defensive TDs) add up to at least 8 more turnovers than the current roster. Now alot of turnovers come in garbage time, but some come in key situations. But I say that turnover difference is going to be noticable. The roster shuffling alone will cost us at least a game or 2(cohesion in the defensive backfield leading to more big plays), but I do expect progress and we should be in every game. But I will consider the D a work in progress til the 4th quarter of the playoffs.

If you don't have the time to look them up, you really shouldn't post about it. You only make yourself look foolish.

Seau, Colvin, Gay and Samuel combined for the following:
Interceptions - 13
Interceptions for TD - 1
Forced Fumbles - 3
Fumbles Returnd for TD - 2

So, out of all the games, they had 3 defensive TDs. And you don't think that the 2 fumble recoveries, if it had been Mayo and Wilhite, who are both faster than Colvin and Gay, could have done the same thing?

Now, how can you say that thos guys COMBINED account for 8 more than the current roster NOW when the current roster NOW hasn't played a single game?

Sorry, but you are talking out your arse.

 

[Joker]

Now,,the Broons HAVE to win...and make the cycle complete

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The secondary still worries me, but that can be offset by a dominant front 7. And that is achievable if our key guys stay healthy.

We can definately be a better defense than last year. I personally feel another key will be our run game. With another complement to Maroney in case of a Morris injury, it will help alot. I can't agree with people who blame the defense for the loss last year. Yes, they gave up the winning TD, but when you look at the point totals of the three playoff games it is [slightly] better than the average amount of points our defense gave up in the Championship years. They held the Giants to 3 points in 3 quarters and simply wore out in the 4th, part of the blame for that goes has to go to the offense. This year I'd like to see more of a ball control approach, and hopefully the return of Morris and the acquisition of Lamont Jordan allows for that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Let's go back to what Jeff said. Though he made several good points, he got hammered on this board. Let me go to his defense.

We lost Seau, Colvin, Samuel and Gay. What did they put up last year?

INT 13
Forced fumbles 4
Sacks 7.5
TDs 2

So the Pats forced 31 turnovers last year, and 17 of them are gone.

You can't assume that all 4 forced fumbles led to turnovers , unless you went into the game logs and looked them up. I say this becase the Pats forced 20 Fumbles last season. Only 2 of the fumbles you can say, for certainty, were recovered and those were the ones by Gay and Colvin that were taken for tds.

15 are gone. Yes. But to assume that the new players won't be in the same position to make the same plays is fallacy on your part. Particularly since many of the interceptions were caused by the D-line's pressure on the QB.

Another factor in the Pats being #4 in scoring defense last year was that the offense led the NFL in time of possession (which, of course, was aided by the 31 turnovers forced). That is unlikely to be repeated, given the weaknesses on the OL and the downgrade of the WR corps (Stallworth's 46 receptions replaced by Gaffney, who is replaced by CJ Jones).

Why is it unlikely that the Patriots will not being the leaders in Time of Possession? And why do you say that there is a weakness on the offensive line and a downgrade at WR? Seriously, do you actually follow the team or just make stuff up as you go along.

Gaffney is replacing Stallworth. Gaffney's #4 WR position is NOT being replaced by CJ Jones. Its being replaced by Kelley Washington. How do you know that Wshington is a downgrade over what Gaffney did last year? You're making an assumption.

Same with the O-line. You want to claim its a weakness just because Light didn't play all pre-season and with what happened in the SB. Of course, you want to over-look that the Patriots line started to give way when Stephen Neal got hurt. And you also want to over-look that it was stunts that the Patriots were beat on. Primarily inside stunts, though Kaczur, who had NO HELP from a worthless Kyle Brady, wasn't playing well either. Yes, Mankins got beat. So did Koppen. Are you saying they suck now?

Andy, I love your optimism, but I just don't see how we recover the 17 lost turnovers by replacing the 4 names above with rookies Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite. Those guys may be Pro Bowlers someday, but not in '08.

Well, that's because the Patriots aren't replacing those players with 4 rookies. That's the problem with comparisons like you have done.

Mayo is replacing Thomas on the inside. Thomas was there at the beginning of the year and Seau was rotating in on 3rd downs and sometimes 2nd. When Colvin went down, he and Bruschi both had to play full time.

Thomas is replacing Colvin on the outside. This should be an upgrade since Thomas is actually better than Colvin.

Pierre Woods and Shawn Crable should be upgrades over just Pierre Woods from last year.

Deltha O'Neal is replacing Samuel. O'Neal, 2 years ago, had a fantastic season. Last year was horrible, but then so were the Bengals.

Wheatley and Wilhite are replacing Gay. No, its not taking 2 guys to replace him.. The Patriots just have more CBs this year. Wheatley has already shown more in pre-season (to me) than Gay did all year last year. It remains to be seen how he does through-out the regular season, but I am comfortable going forward.

 

[Joker]

C'mon...look at the measureables...Wheatley would take Blue Gay in the 40 with a ten yard head start for Chrissakes...so he's a rookie...who hasn't been??...remember the brou-ha-ha over Seymour when we drafted him???...same crap.

these kids are bringing something THIS Pats fan has CRAVED the past 7 years...flat out SPEED in the secondary...I can live with them cutting their teeth

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Andy, I think your analysis of the defense being better than last year is wishful thinking. Sure they will be faster with their LB's but they are going to have their ups and downs. Also, their DB's are faster but their going to get schooled early in the season against good WR's. This defense is going to struggle early but get better as the season wears on. However, I don't think it will be enough.

Archives, don't hurt yourself by saying something positive about the team.

 

[DarrylS]

This D in the end, will be as good as or better than last year.. to be as good as in this league will be outstanding.. there are always some weaknesses in every area, but our depth is decent, particularly in the front 7...

There will be bumps in the road, but overall not all that concerned..

 

[SunnyDenmark]

I think this years D will be close to the club record for points allowed - could even break it. But considering this years opponents - that is not a mind blowing thing to predict.

With many of our core playmakers on the wrong side of 30 , the defense had no choice BUT to bite the bullet and get younger. I can't remember in Beolis reign a team that had so many rookies make the team. But this is needed not only for the infusion of youth and athleticism (vs. the new rage spread offenses) but also to keep the Cap balance. I believe Pats are more top heavy cap wise than in the last several (3-5 ) years. And with this years seemingly weak schedule , there is no better time to infuse the D with alot of youth - not just youth for youths' sake but because this was supposidly a very deep draft class. Let the kids learn from the vets while they are still playing (Bru, Rodney, Vrabel, _Seymore, and possibly Seau).

Lets play the games and see what happens. Ty Law or no Ty Law.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that the defense could be stronger by season's end. But it is not at all a sure thing. The DL and S positions are essentially the same with fewer backups, so let's turn to the obvious changes.

LB
We've lost Seau and Colvin. You say Colvin doesn't matter because Colvin wasn't there at the end. Some would argue that we lost precisely because we didn't have Colvin at the end. We had a really solid 5 man corps with Woods as an OK backup. We drafted Mayo and Crable. And into the great unknown we go.

DB
We've lost Samuel and Gay. We had an all-pro #1, an OK #2, and a mediocre experienced #3. We now have an OK #2, an over the hill all pro that we just picked up, a ST specialist who seems to be a fine dime back and two rookies who may or may not be ready for prime time.

Should we expect more from O'Neal than being a solid nickel back? I think that would be great for a pickup so late in the preseason. Aren't we fine with Lewis Sanders as a dime back and STer? Is Wilhite more than a developmental inactive player at this point?

In the end, Wheatley replaces Samuel. This cannot be a plus.
=========

The veterans could step up (including Woods). Otherwise we need the rookies to perform: Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite.

MY HOPE AND BOTTOM LINE
My hope is that the biggest improvement will be in the production of our all-pro, best in the league, 3-4 DL. Pressure up front will certainly make the corners look better. This group of corner might be OK by mid-season. I think that we are dreaming to expect more.

OUR NEEDS
We still need an ILB. Counting on Guyton and Alexander just doesn't seem right. I think that we are done at DB, although a trade for a starter is what we need. And we need to bring in a #4 safety.

I am going to be the first one to say this, and anyone who would like to can bookmark this and remind me of it whenever you want.
THE DEFENSE WILL BE BETTER THAN IT WAS LAST YEAR.
I also expect that we will break the team record for fewest points allowed, which we have hovered close to breaking in many of BBs years.

We have gotten faster, and younger. We have added Mayo, Wheatley, Sanders, ONeal, Wilhite, Crable.
What have we subracted?
Seau. In his prime thats a loss, at this stage of his career, it is not.
Samuel. OK, we lost a starter.
Colvin. Not really a loss since we didn't have him at the end, and were better with Thomas outside.
Gay. I do not believe that a player could make our roster who would perform worse than Randal Gay did in the SB.

I see improvement, I see more speed, I see a healthy Seymour, a better group of LBs including depth, I see Meriwhether upgrading speed and play at safety with a much larger role, and I see 2 strong rookies, PLUS 2 experienced vets to fill the role of Asante Samuel in playing TEAM DEFENSE.
If we think losing just one player can have the impact on this defense that it may have on another, then we have totally missed the point that BB builds an entire system around playing team defense, with less impact, good or bad, possible from any one player.

 

[memento]

I am going to be the first one to say this, and anyone who would like to can bookmark this and remind me of it whenever you want.
THE DEFENSE WILL BE BETTER THAN IT WAS LAST YEAR.
I also expect that we will break the team record for fewest points allowed, which we have hovered close to breaking in many of BBs years.

We have gotten faster, and younger. We have added Mayo, Wheatley, Sanders, ONeal, Wilhite, Crable.
What have we subracted?
Seau. In his prime thats a loss, at this stage of his career, it is not.
Samuel. OK, we lost a starter.
Colvin. Not really a loss since we didn't have him at the end, and were better with Thomas outside.
Gay. I do not believe that a player could make our roster who would perform worse than Randal Gay did in the SB.

I see improvement, I see more speed, I see a healthy Seymour, a better group of LBs including depth, I see Meriwhether upgrading speed and play at safety with a much larger role, and I see 2 strong rookies, PLUS 2 experienced vets to fill the role of Asante Samuel in playing TEAM DEFENSE.
If we think losing just one player can have the impact on this defense that it may have on another, then we have totally missed the point that BB builds an entire system around playing team defense, with less impact, good or bad, possible from any one player.

you forgot to mention don capers. new defense coach ---> more blitzing?

more blitzing ---> more fear

 

[mgteich]

DaBruinz

OK, let's do it your way.

1) O'Neal is replacing Samuel. How much of a downgrade is this? Time will tell.

2) Mayo And Guyton replace AT and Seau inside. How much of a downgrade is this? Time will tell.

3) Hochstein or Yates will play in place of Neal. How much of a downgrade is this? Time will tell.

All the rest are just normal replacements, although I believe Jordan will be a major addition.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that the defense could be stronger by season's end. But it is not at all a sure thing. The DL and S positions are essentially the same with fewer backups, so let's turn to the obvious changes.

LB
We've lost Seau and Colvin. You say Colvin doesn't matter because Colvin wasn't there at the end. Some would argue that we lost precisely because we didn't have Colvin at the end. We had a really solid 5 man corps with Woods as an OK backup. We drafted Mayo and Crable. And into the great unknown we go.

DB
We've lost Samuel and Gay. We had an all-pro #1, an OK #2, and a mediocre experienced #3. We now have an OK #2, an over the hill all pro that we just picked up, a ST specialist who seems to be a fine dime back and two rookies who may or may not be ready for prime time.

Should we expect more from O'Neal than being a solid nickel back? I think that would be great for a pickup so late in the preseason. Aren't we fine with Lewis Sanders as a dime back and STer? Is Wilhite more than a developmental inactive player at this point?

In the end, Wheatley replaces Samuel. This cannot be a plus.
=========

The veterans could step up (including Woods). Otherwise we need the rookies to perform: Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite.

MY HOPE AND BOTTOM LINE
My hope is that the biggest improvement will be in the production of our all-pro, best in the league, 3-4 DL. Pressure up front will certainly make the corners look better. This group of corner might be OK by mid-season. I think that we are dreaming to expect more.

OUR NEEDS
We still need an ILB. Counting on Guyton and Alexander just doesn't seem right. I think that we are done at DB, although a trade for a starter is what we need. And we need to bring in a #4 safety.

I'm trying not to look at it as plus this minus that, but the overall unit.

I think its reasonable to expect that the coverage skills of our outside corners is potentially an issue that wasnt an issue or not much of an issue last year.
I frankly do not see that as a terribly critical issue in our system.
I think our LBs will be strong, and last year we had either a top player playing out of position or a 39 year old starter. I am fine with trading experience for speed and talent in adding Mayo.
I think we had severe speed (I really think AGILITY is more the issue) deficiencies on defense. Particularly in sub packages and in '2 minute defense'. I am pretty confident in the agility and speed we will put on the field in the lb, safety and nickel positions this year, and was afraid of it last year.

My opinion is that I will GLADLY accept worse play at outside corner if in trade I get better play in 2 minute defense.
There is nothing we will be bad at on defense, and for the last 2 years, we were basically undermanned when teams went into pass only mode, and spread the field with speed. We are better equipped to handle that now, and that plus outweighs any minusses i can see.

 

[AzPatsFan]

And you are WRONG about the OL which I agree was good enough all year long but it was boys out there against men when it came to the line in the SB -

Brady if you don't remember and if I am not mistaken was sacked 7 times in the biggest game of the year- Yeah,The OL played well until it REALLY counted so lets not give excuses for them like BAD PLAYS it was bad most of the game,Lets face it,in the biggest game of the year the OL were MANHANDLED and Brady as a result was on his back more times in that one night than my X-Wife ever was (and both my X and Tom got paid for it anyway)

The OL was the reason the game was lost not Gay,Mankins was Justin Tuck's playtoy in that game,I suggest you watch the game again if you can

- If Brady had more time in that pocket or if the OL had been able to open up running lanes for Maroney and Faulk and CO. then there would have been a different ending without a doubt,no matter what Gay was doing out there,remember the defense only gave up 17 points so it was not like Gay was giving up TDs all night

The Giants played a good game in the SB. They were helped by an early injury to TWO key players. Stephen Neal went down with a knee early in the game. Faulk went down with injury. That took away the best blitz pass blocker; and also the very good 3rd down short pass catcher, whose short catches stop a pass rush. On top of that, Hochstein was playing hurt, and was not effective as a substitute, and inexperienced Yates was forced to play. In effect it turned out to be the perfect storm, which weasn't and likely won't be duplicated.

Don't forget that the Pats had handled the Giants pass rush in the 16th game.

We will have problems until Steve Neal comes back; but more so in the rushing game than the passing game, would be my guess. Steve is an excellent pulling Guard.

 

[jeffbiologist]

If you don't have the time to look them up, you really shouldn't post about it. You only make yourself look foolish.

Seau, Colvin, Gay and Samuel combined for the following:
Interceptions - 13
Interceptions for TD - 1
Forced Fumbles - 3
Fumbles Returnd for TD - 2

So, out of all the games, they had 3 defensive TDs. And you don't think that the 2 fumble recoveries, if it had been Mayo and Wilhite, who are both faster than Colvin and Gay, could have done the same thing?

Now, how can you say that thos guys COMBINED account for 8 more than the current roster NOW when the current roster NOW hasn't played a single game?

Sorry, but you are talking out your arse.

WOW-they have over the counter meds for what you got, relax. As you can see my "guess" of 4 td's wasnt that far off, and if they combined for 16 turnovers I will say that Crable, Mayo, Wheatley and Wilhite will combine for only 8! Being in position to make the play is not the same as MAKING THE PLAY! Colvin never was a hi-number guy, he got run on,etc... But he was good at being in the right place at the right time AND making the play! Plucking that ball out of the air in Indy likely saved that game! We replace him with Woods in the Super Bowl and Woods LOSES that fumble! Does Rosie if he is in there? Who knows, just like the rest of the new guys. MAYBE they will be better, but I suggest that in their rookie year they wont be as good. I am not stretching or being negative, its an accepted fact that rookies generally make more mistakes than veterans. To defend the rookies is YOU defending the unknown, not me. And remember, most teams turnovers are cyclic--the leader in that catagory changes every year. The year before it was Cincy, 2 years ago the Bears,etc...

 

[Ring 6]

Let's go back to what Jeff said. Though he made several good points, he got hammered on this board. Let me go to his defense.

We lost Seau, Colvin, Samuel and Gay. What did they put up last year?

INT 13
Forced fumbles 4
Sacks 7.5
TDs 2

So the Pats forced 31 turnovers last year, and 17 of them are gone.

Another factor in the Pats being #4 in scoring defense last year was that the offense led the NFL in time of possession (which, of course, was aided by the 31 turnovers forced). That is unlikely to be repeated, given the weaknesses on the OL and the downgrade of the WR corps (Stallworth's 46 receptions replaced by Gaffney, who is replaced by CJ Jones).

Andy, I love your optimism, but I just don't see how we recover the 17 lost turnovers by replacing the 4 names above with rookies Mayo, Crable, Wheatley and Wilhite. Those guys may be Pro Bowlers someday, but not in '08.

That is one a game out of FOUR players. Who says they have to be made up by rookies?
Meriwhther will play more than last year. Sanders and ONeal will take part of the corner responsibilities. AT will be more like to force turniovers at OLB than ILB. We arent talking about a hell of a lot of prodction out of a starting corner, starting OLB, starting ILB, and nickle corner.
Do you think that these guys made 17 incredible plays that no one else could? The tunrovers are part of TEAM DEFENSE not individual efforts.

 

[mgteich]

To be clear, your analysis shows that Mayo is already better than At and Seau inside and the O'neal roplacing Samuel is no big deal.

I'm trying not to look at it as plus this minus that, but the overall unit.

I think its reasonable to expect that the coverage skills of our outside corners is potentially an issue that wasnt an issue or not much of an issue last year.
I frankly do not see that as a terribly critical issue in our system.
I think our LBs will be strong, and last year we had either a top player playing out of position or a 39 year old starter. I am fine with trading experience for speed and talent in adding Mayo.
I think we had severe speed (I really think AGILITY is more the issue) deficiencies on defense. Particularly in sub packages and in '2 minute defense'. I am pretty confident in the agility and speed we will put on the field in the lb, safety and nickel positions this year, and was afraid of it last year.

My opinion is that I will GLADLY accept worse play at outside corner if in trade I get better play in 2 minute defense.
There is nothing we will be bad at on defense, and for the last 2 years, we were basically undermanned when teams went into pass only mode, and spread the field with speed. We are better equipped to handle that now, and that plus outweighs any minusses i can see.