Could 9 DBs + Slater suffice?

[mayoclinic]

Uh...Thanks, Gents.

I've actually been perfectly aware of Planet Theory since, like...forever.

Planet Theory was applied quite clearly and explicitly to Grizzlies.

I was asking you ~ Avenger ~ to explain how in @#$% that applies to Brother Nate Ebner, a D Back.

Even so: Your Argument was quite exquisitely presented, Brother Fester. I thank you.

I think Avenger's argument is more properly an example of the "Asteroid Theory" - the theory (most recently coined by me, in this post) that there are only a certain number of 6' 210# wrecking balls with 4.50 speed, 6.59 3-cone agility and 39" vertical explosiveness along with an insane motor and drive to succeed, rugby background and ST demon capabilities, and if you can get one in the 6th round it's well worth a shot.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm pretty sure that Nate Ebner was everybody's Binkie from Day 1.

And well he ought be.

And now that we're seeing that his freakish fusion of Verticity, Fluidity, Lateral Agility, and Burst ~ and ferocious Work Ethic ~ are quite clearly enhanced by phenomenal Processing Speed, as he rapidly takes it through the Gears in our Game Planning...It's becoming evident that he could very well have an Impact on this Game light years beyond the Project we envisioned so very very recently.

Indeed, he could become an extraordinary player, and for years to come, UFA Status be damned.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think Avenger's argument is more properly an example of the "Asteroid Theory" - the theory (most recently coined by me, in this post) that there are only a certain number of 6' 210# wrecking balls with 4.50 speed, 6.59 3-cone agility and 39" vertical explosiveness along with an insane motor and drive to succeed, rugby background and ST demon capabilities, and if you can get one in the 6th round it's well worth a shot.

Asteroid Theory!! Exquisite!!

:rocker:

 

[Lamanai]

OK, so somebody's gotta be the wet blanket at this Dennard-Ebner love fest. So I'll play Devil's Advocate here...

DENNARD: First, unless Dennard doesn't get back on the field by Tuesday next week and gets into two of the remaining games then I think he'll slip onto the PS. As much as we think he's got loads of potential i'm not convinced that another team is gonna drop some guy who has been working hard all spring and summer, learning their system to tie up a spot on their 53 man roster for Dennard. He's a guy that hasn't really shown up this summer, would need to learn and fit another team's scheme and still has an unresolved legal situation hanging over him. There were non-legal questions out there too at draft time. We think it's impacted his drafting status, but by how much we don't really know. Some say from 2nd round to 7th, but what if he was really rated a mid-rounder by teams? If he was really rated a 4th or 5th rounder, say, without practice, coming off a lingering injury, and possible legal trouble, is he really gonna be a hot commodity?

I say it is worth the risk of floating him out there and adding him to the PS.

EBNER: Love his story and all, but unless he really stands out in the preseason games then I am not sure he'd be snagged by another team either. The whole 3 defensive snap in college thing has gotta play into other teams' minds (are we gonna have to teach this guy how to play football?). I may be looking in a vacuum here, but how many other coaches besides BB carry so many of these ST only, worthless on defense players? That is how other teams will likely view Ebner, and they may be reluctant to dump one of their own draft picks or developmental players.

Again, I'm just trying to look at this another way. I'd like to keep both of them around, but I think it is possible that they may not be as attractive to other teams as we think.

 

[mayoclinic]

OK, so somebody's gotta be the wet blanket at this Dennard-Ebner love fest. So I'll play Devil's Advocate here...

DENNARD: First, unless Dennard doesn't get back on the field by Tuesday next week and gets into two of the remaining games then I think he'll slip onto the PS. As much as we think he's got loads of potential i'm not convinced that another team is gonna drop some guy who has been working hard all spring and summer, learning their system to tie up a spot on their 53 man roster for Dennard. He's a guy that hasn't really shown up this summer, would need to learn and fit another team's scheme and still has an unresolved legal situation hanging over him. There were non-legal questions out there too at draft time. We think it's impacted his drafting status, but by how much we don't really know. Some say from 2nd round to 7th, but what if he was really rated a mid-rounder by teams? If he was really rated a 4th or 5th rounder, say, without practice, coming off a lingering injury, and possible legal trouble, is he really gonna be a hot commodity?

I say it is worth the risk of floating him out there and adding him to the PS.

EBERT: Love his story and all, but unless he really stands out in the preseason games then I am not sure he'd be snagged by another team either. The whole 3 defensive snap in college thing has gotta play into other teams' minds (are we gonna have to teach this guy how to play football?). I may be looking in a vacuum here, but how many other coaches besides BB carry so many of these ST only, worthless on defense players? That is how other teams will likely view Ebner, and they may be reluctant to dump one of their own draft picks or developmental players.

Again, I'm just trying to look at this another way. I'd like to keep both of them around, but I think it is possible that they may not be as attractive to other teams as we think.

I think those are extremely reasonable arguments. My main counter-argument to that is, who would be more worth keeping? In Ebner's case we know that he's raw, and expect he'll take a bit of time to develop. Are guys like Ihedigbo and Barrett really so much more ready to step in and perform in a pinch, given how they did in 2010? Maybe Ihedigbo, but if Wilson continues to look good (and if his injury is minor) then the Pats have a solid 3 man safety rotation. Similarly at CB, I'm not convinced that Will Allen or Marquice Cole has done enough to warrant risking losing out on Dennard.

It could easily go the way you suggest. But personally, I'm not sure I see enough upside of the other guys to risk losing out on Ebner and Dennard. JMHO, and BB obviously may see it differently.

 

[Joker]

who the hell is Ebert?...Roger Ebert?

 

[Lamanai]

Mayo, I'd keep Cole, and the better of Ihedigbo and Barrett...keeping in mind that they are almost exclusively STers. And in Cole's case, he would be a serviceable CB.

If I had to expose only one of them, I suppose I'd risk Ebner. The upside of Dennard is more compelling, IMO.

 

[Fencer]

Nitpicking two previous posts -- Ebner wasn't a UFA, and he also wasn't named Ebert.

As for the original topic of this thread, now we're talking about keeping:

• 5 guys who've proven they can play (Chung, Gregory, McCourty, Arrington, Moore), in some sense of "proven".
• 2 high-pick rookies or near rookies (Dowling, who's actually only had one training camp, and Wilson)
• 2 low-pick rookies (Ebner, Dennard)
• Edelman, Slater, and so on

On that list, there's exactly one guy who played DB well for the Patriots all last year, as opposed to being injured a lot, being new to the team, or whatever -- namely the league's most dubious INT leader in a long time.


Scary stuff ...

 

[mayoclinic]

Nitpicking two previous posts -- Ebner wasn't a UFA, and he also wasn't named Ebert.

As for the original topic of this thread, now we're talking about keeping:

• 5 guys who've proven they can play (Chung, Gregory, McCourty, Arrington, Moore), in some sense of "proven".
• 2 high-pick rookies or near rookies (Dowling, who's actually only had one training camp, and Wilson)
• 2 low-pick rookies (Ebner, Dennard)
• Edelman, Slater, and so on

On that list, there's exactly one guy who played DB well for the Patriots all last year, as opposed to being injured a lot, being new to the team, or whatever -- namely the league's most dubious INT leader in a long time.


Scary stuff ...

Not as scary as last year. Chung, McCourty, Arrington and Moore are carryovers. Moore should be getting better, Chung hopefully won't be as hobbled as he was by injuries, and McCourty had a down year and will hopefully be better, but they are at least no more "scary" than they were a year ago. And Gregory, Dowling and Wilson can't be any more "scary" than the revolving door of JAGs we had a year ago. Gregory has been a proven player for San Diego, and Dowling clearly has some impressive physical tools. After a year of Barrett, Brown, Ihedigbo, a hobbled Bodden, Antwaun Molden, Nate Jone and the like, I'm ok with some young talent that clearly has some upside. Now if injuries force some of those guys into significant combat much earlier than expected ... yes, that would be a bit scary. Kind of like 2011.

 

[Lamanai]

Nitpicking two previous posts -- Ebner wasn't a UFA, and he also wasn't named Ebert..

<-------"15 yard penalty for piling on..."

;-)

 

[Joker]

secondaries look better when the front seven is capable of getting in the QB's face quickly...whether this happens this season is the main question to me...if so, I think we'll see lots of knee jerk "most improved secondary in the league!!!" columns and tweets from all the national sqauwk gagglers that have to pigeonhole everybody and everything.

 

[Deus Irae]

secondaries look better when the front seven is capable of getting in the QB's face quickly...whether this happens this season is the main question to me...if so, I think we'll see lots of knee jerk "most improved secondary in the league!!!" columns and tweets from all the national sqauwk gagglers that have to pigeonhole everybody and everything.

While I agree with your point, I think that the secondary is in position to be significantly better.

McCourty, year 3 had better be > McCourty, year 2
Pretty much any freakin' human on the planet > last year's S2s

Even ignoring Ras-IR Dowling and any potential improvement by Chung, this secondary should be much better, regardless of the pass rush.

 

[mayoclinic]

Pretty much any freakin' human on the planet > last year's S2s

That's an interesting version of the "Planet theory".

 

[Lamanai]

secondaries look better when the front seven is capable of getting in the QB's face quickly...whether this happens this season is the main question to me...if so, I think we'll see lots of knee jerk "most improved secondary in the league!!!" columns and tweets from all the national sqauwk gagglers that have to pigeonhole everybody and everything.

Yes, having to endure those columns will be insufferable...!

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo, I'd keep Cole, and the better of Ihedigbo and Barrett...keeping in mind that they are almost exclusively STers. And in Cole's case, he would be a serviceable CB.

If I had to expose only one of them, I suppose I'd risk Ebner. The upside of Dennard is more compelling, IMO.

I think there are a couple of plausible variants of your proposal:

1. Ebner and/or Dennard make the "final 53", but a vet DB gets cut who has more immediate impact, and BB tries to sneak one or both of them onto the PS.

2. Same as above, but injuries to other DBs require the 4th CB/5th S to be more experienced, and BB tries to sneak one or both of them onto the PS in order to sign a veteran stopgap.

The 53 man roster is always fluid, and guys at the back of the bus can be dropped off at any time. It's often easier to sneak guys onto the PS during the season than at the end of training camp, when teams are looking to fill out their rosters. Teams are usually more interested in immediate help during the season. And BB has taken advantage of many vets cut during TC - Brian Waters and Rodney Harrison being two of the most notable examples.

 

[Nomma]

And BB has taken advantage of many vets cut during TC - Brian Waters and Rodney Harrison being two of the most notable examples.

I seem to remember Harrison signing in the middle of the offseason, no?

 

[fester]

OK, so somebody's gotta be the wet blanket at this Dennard-Ebner love fest. So I'll play Devil's Advocate here...
.

EBNER:, but how many other coaches besides BB carry so many of these ST only, worthless on defense players? That is how other teams will likely view Ebner, and they may be reluctant to dump one of their own draft picks or developmental players...

Most teams carry a few guys who are 95% ST only/If they are in on BASE (defense/offense) we are in trouble guys.

I live in Pittsburgh, and the Steelers routinely keep a few such guys:

• Stevenson Stylvester (Nominally an ILB)
• John Clay/Jonathan Dwyer (#4/5 RBs)

And then a bunch of rookie contract guys who see some sub package snaps but their playing time is really ST.

 

[Nunchucks]

I think Ebner makes it as a ST/S guy. Dennard is going to be IRed.

 

[Lamanai]

Most teams carry a few guys who are 95% ST only/If they are in on BASE (defense/offense) we are in trouble guys.

I live in Pittsburgh, and the Steelers routinely keep a few such guys:

• Stevenson Stylvester (Nominally an ILB)
• John Clay/Jonathan Dwyer (#4/5 RBs)

And then a bunch of rookie contract guys who see some sub package snaps but their playing time is really ST.

True, but BB seems to routinely keep disproportionately more of them on his 53. But I have to admit that I don't keep as close tabs on all 31 other teams' bottom of the roster/developmental players.

 

[Nunchucks]

Would it surprise anybody if Mallet was cut or traded by the start of the season? We have a very competitive group this year and I don't know if a 3rd QB is something they can afford