CornerBack to Free Safety Conversions

[Off The Grid]

I'll love to hear what the wizened minds of this fine Forum think on this subject.

***

I'll start off by admitting, straight out: I'm a little mystified by the notion.

What attributes of a prospective Corner recommend him for conversion to Free Safety?

I get the basics: Fluidity. Hips. Turn and Burn. Read and React. Lateral Agility. Range. SPEED.

I understand that a Strong Safety leans toward the Run Game, and a Free Safety towards the Pass Game, so the former needs to be Stronger, and the latter needs to be Faster.

And I understand ~ or think I do ~ that the Corners need to be more physical if they play Man, and quicker if they play Zone.

Seems to me that the Free Safety ought have exceptional Processing Speed and Diagnostic Skills, if he's the Secondary's Field General: Read + React Speed and Aptitude are essential.

***

But I cannot for the LIFE of me distinguish what makes a guy a better Corner than Free Safety, or vice versa...or what makes a Corner a desirable Free Safety Conversion.

The reason for my inquiry is obvious, I'm sure.

 

[supafly]

I think it's some of the things that you stated, the aspect of whether or not they have had versatility in the secondary before in HS or college, and a lot of size--weight and height are important. I believe that players like Shawn Springs at 6'+, Sean Smith at 6'3", and most recently Peterson at 6'1" and 211 lbs are brought up a lot more frequently because they have that supposed size.

I think it was often a topic w/ E.Wilson here because he had that versatility in the past.

Just my personal take though, FWIW.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Don't forget Tebucky Jones. Conversion projects are always a bit risky. Depends on how they project at the next level. Some of the taller corners like Aaron Williams for example could project to FS.

 

[DW Toys]

I'll love to hear what the wizened minds of this fine Forum think on this subject.

***

I'll start off by admitting, straight out: I'm a little mystified by the notion.

What attributes of a prospective Corner recommend him for conversion to Free Safety?

I get the basics: Fluidity. Hips. Turn and Burn. Read and React. Lateral Agility. Range. SPEED.

I understand that a Strong Safety leans toward the Run Game, and a Free Safety towards the Pass Game, so the former needs to be Stronger, and the latter needs to be Faster.

And I understand ~ or think I do ~ that the Corners need to be more physical if they play Man, and quicker if they play Zone.

Seems to me that the Free Safety ought have exceptional Processing Speed and Diagnostic Skills, if he's the Secondary's Field General: Read + React Speed and Aptitude are essential.

***

But I cannot for the LIFE of me distinguish what makes a guy a better Corner than Free Safety, or vice versa...or what makes a Corner a desirable Free Safety Conversion.

The reason for my inquiry is obvious, I'm sure.

Frankly Cousin, It is a combination or size and lack of specific talents in some fazes or deficiency of the player in the Cornerback position. The myth is that "quick twitch" smaller Cornerbacks are the NFL prototypical CB to date in the past but that in being rethought with players like Sean Smith, Bodden, Patrick Peterson etc. If you have to defend the big WR today such as Colson, Marshall, Moss, Fitzgerald, etc. guys like Hobbs (and I an not picking on him here) become ineffective. In years past we would Draft our 5'8" CBs for this very antiquated quick twitch talent and we simply got burned.

In the case of Peterson they say he might be too big to play corner. I believe that means because he can evolve into a Safety with superb skills for that position that might be slightly higher or more of value than CB. It's not that he doesn't have the skill to play CB. It is because he creates a better value on the defense as a Safety. It's more the talent to stop and start at CB but few big CBs have that ability other than a Asomugha or Revis. These are the traits of a small CB but rare in a bigger CB.

BB did this with Eugene Wilson and it worked well until Wilson began a list of injuries. He was a CB at Illinois. Ironically he is not that big by today's S. But he had 9 P.Def. and 4 Ints. in 2003 so he basically became the playmaker with CB skills as a Safety.

BB tried to do the opposite with Meriweather but that did not work. I think CB to Safety is easier. In fact that is what Shawn Springs did at Washington and perhaps a dual role here but he had lost a step. I think Champ Bailey would be an excellent Safety if we had made a play for him.

It is size, tacking ability, the ability to dislodge a ball, make up speed, good vision, smarts and playmaking and the fact that some guys are always around the ball like Ed Reed (and that is not taught. You can call it instinct) that you desire in a Safety, If he is born with speed and long arms all the better. Our Safeties have each some of those talents but not all inclusive, so we are lacking in that position. There actually is "O" for a playmaker at Safety on our roster at the present time. Chung might be the closest but the youngest.

Therefor the theory of having a Peterson or whom I think will make a great Safety, Dowling........ because they have great instinct as former CBs, good size and height to knock down passes, great playmaking talent, are good tacklers, and with these guys, speed would make them conversion possibilities. Think of the career of Ronnie Lott.

Safety Chart just for fun to rate our guys. Each talent is listed to potential ability. Half point for maybe they do. Barrett has really no past history and Brown very little.

Playmaking=
Smarts= Sanders, Chung (1/2)
Height= Page, Barrett, Brown
Weight= Sanders, Chung, Page, Barrett, Brown
Speed= Merriweather, Chung
Instinct= Merriweather (1/2), Chung (1/2)
Tackling= Chung, Page
Coverage= Chung (1/2), Page (I am giving him 1/2 because of his 2008 K.C. year. He showed he can do this with 12 P.Def and 4 Ints)
Angles=
Hard hitting to dislodge passes= Merriweather, Chung, Page, Barrett, Brown
Special Teams value=Sanders, Merriweather, Chung, Page, Barrett, Brown

Match up a Champ Bailey to this or a Peterson or Dowling.

DW Toys

 

[MaineMan]

I guess I start considering CB -> FS conversion, at least on taller CBs (~6'1"+) when I see scouting notes like, "good read/instincts/anticipation, plays the run fairly well, very good ball skills, sound tackler and can bring the wood when necessary, just okay long speed (4.5x), struggles to turn and run, good click-and-close but not much make-up speed, much better in zone than man, not good at press coverage, at his best when keeping everything in front of him", etc. To me, that sounds like the traditional job requirements for an over-the-top, centerfield protector. It also sounds more like the descriptions I've heard of Amukamara than Peterson.

CB -> SS conversion seems more difficult to project, at least for a traditional in-the-box SS type. Might be a 5'10"-6'0" CB who's a bit heftier, 200 lbs+ rather than 175-190. Possibly a guy who's also lacking long speed and elite turn-and-run agility/technique, though not entirely lacking, by any means, and certainly would need enough lateral agility/quickness to stay with a slot WR or RB. Would also need very good read/instincts for both run and pass plays and at least decent ball skills. Obviously, would need the ability to shed (perhaps more than a FS) and must be an excellent wrap-up tackler who can make bigtime hits. I would think a quick but light (210-220) college LB with good coverage experience/skills might convert to SS (in some NFL schemes) more often than a CB.

 

[Off The Grid]

I guess I start considering CB -> FS conversion, at least on taller CBs (~6'1"+) when I see scouting notes like, "good read/instincts/anticipation, plays the run fairly well, very good ball skills, sound tackler and can bring the wood when necessary, just okay long speed (4.5x), struggles to turn and run, good click-and-close but not much make-up speed, much better in zone than man, not good at press coverage, at his best when keeping everything in front of him", etc. To me, that sounds like the traditional job requirements for an over-the-top, centerfield protector. It also sounds more like the descriptions I've heard of Amukamara than Peterson.

CB -> SS conversion seems more difficult to project, at least for a traditional in-the-box SS type. Might be a 5'10"-6'0" CB who's a bit heftier, 200 lbs+ rather than 175-190. Possibly a guy who's also lacking long speed and elite turn-and-run agility/technique, though not entirely lacking, by any means, and certainly would need enough lateral agility/quickness to stay with a slot WR or RB. Would also need very good read/instincts for both run and pass plays and at least decent ball skills. Obviously, would need the ability to shed (perhaps more than a FS) and must be an excellent wrap-up tackler who can make bigtime hits. I would think a quick but light (210-220) college LB with good coverage experience/skills might convert to SS (in some NFL schemes) more often than a CB.

Tremendous break down, Brother Maine. Gratefull thanks for this enlightening and digestible analysis.

And thanks to ALL of you, gents, for your time and effort in furthering my education!!

 

[Wilfork#75]

I think perhaps the most important thing to look at in corner to safety conversions is the specific skill translation to each teams scheme. I think there are some corners in this draft class that may have the size requirements, but don't have the skill set required for the Pats. The two guys that stand out for me are Aaron Williams from Texas and Patrick Peterson from LSU. My biggest problem with Williams is he is very inconsistent, and he has a tendency to take bad angles on the ball. Inconsistency is a major issue for a Pats safety in a system that is about stopping the big play first. And after having Meriweather here, taking bad angles is a big red flag for a safety in my book. These are obviously things that can be improved with coaching, but with the time and resources required to make this change I don't think it is worth the risk.

Patrick Peterson is a guy that I see as a strictly man to man cover corner. He struggles in zone coverage, and I believe he has trouble processing information, which would explain his terrible wonderlic score. Because of this I don't see him as a great fit for the Pats system as a corner or safety, where he would need to read the play and react. I think he will be an elite CB in the NFL, but for a team that will allow him to play off his instincts rather than reading the play. I think for the Pats defence he just isn't a great fit despite his immense talent. Luckily he will be well out of reach so we won't even be tempted to take a chance on his talent.

The guy I do see as the best fit as a CB to S conversion is Ras-I Dowling from Virginia. He has the physical size and ball skills, but is also a very good zone corner that reads the play in front of him very well. I think he has all the skills and discipline to be a very good FS in the Pats system. The only issue is he just can't stay healthy. He has first round talent but I give him a 3rd round grade because of his durability issues. Unfortunately I think he will be overdrafted because of his physical skill set, and I wouldn't be suprised if he was the 3rd or 4th CB off the board.

Overall I don't really like the CB to S conversion projects in this draft class. I think if we are looking to devlop a safety we are much better off going for someone that played safety in college and has shown the required skills to succeed in the Pats system. My personal favorite is Deunta Williams from UNC. He does need some coaching to improve some aspects of his game, but he would be a likely IR candidate, so he has time to improve his game without taking up a roster spot. Safety isn't an immediate need, even if we were to trade Brandon Meriweather, so taking the risk on a guy and allowing him to develop for year could be a good option.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Jalil Brown.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Jalil Brown.

Good call. He interviewed well on Sirius today.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Ras-I Dowling is ideal for this conversion, although I think he can play corner, too. Dowling had a heck of a pro day with a 4.34 40, a 38 inch vertical, and a "terrific" showing in drills. I have been a fan of his for years now, and if fully healthy he might end up being the best defensive back from this class. He's got exceptional ball skills, and hits like a linebacker. I would not complain if we took him as early as 33; I think he can instantly become our second-best DB behind only McCourty (and he has the potential to pass him).

 

[Metaphors]

And after having Meriweather here, taking bad angles is a big red flag for a safety in my book. These are obviously things that can be improved with coaching, but with the time and resources required to make this change I don't think it is worth the risk.

Agree but this isn't just a rookie issue. Bad angles generally result from a lack of preparation or recognition ("processing information" as you call it)...or a combination of the 2. Meriweather was pretty bad last year but generally solid up until that point. Sanders was horrific 2-3 years ago but really tightened up that part of his game last year. Just reinforces your point that the ability to take and apply coaching (not just initial but ongoing) is a key aspect the Pats will look for in a safety.

The guy I do see as the best fit as a CB to S conversion is Ras-I Dowling from Virginia. He has the physical size and ball skills, but is also a very good zone corner that reads the play in front of him very well. I think he has all the skills and discipline to be a very good FS in the Pats system. The only issue is he just can't stay healthy. He has first round talent but I give him a 3rd round grade because of his durability issues. Unfortunately I think he will be overdrafted because of his physical skill set, and I wouldn't be suprised if he was the 3rd or 4th CB off the board.

Agree with your assessment of Dowling. He is an enigma to me. Have seen him play quite a bit and even accounting for injury, his skills don't seem to translate to a commensurate level of production on the field. The problem is I can't explain why. Maybe the problem is with the supporting cast...similar to why I believe Rashad Carmichael isn't rated higher. I actually hope he is overdrafted so I never have to worry about what I'm missing.

Overall I don't really like the CB to S conversion projects in this draft class. I think if we are looking to devlop a safety we are much better off going for someone that played safety in college and has shown the required skills to succeed in the Pats system. My personal favorite is Deunta Williams from UNC. He does need some coaching to improve some aspects of his game, but he would be a likely IR candidate, so he has time to improve his game without taking up a roster spot. Safety isn't an immediate need, even if we were to trade Brandon Meriweather, so taking the risk on a guy and allowing him to develop for year could be a good option.

I hate being so agreeable but I think you are right on. Williams 2010 season was just one bad break after another. So much so that people forget he was considered an elite safety prospect after 2009. Not only did he have top notch measurables, but he is smart and instinctive. Hasn't been able to do anything at the combine or UNC pro day so he should drop quite a bit. Would love to see him on the board at #92 for the Pats.

 

[patchick]

I'll third the nomination of Dowling, who I think has the makings of an outstanding free safety. I think he's been seriously underrated in a lot of mocks, and will be drafted in round 2.

 

[b72s]

I Predict

Merriweather gone either by the law or no contract extended

and then D. Butler will be replacing him

 

[patchick]

Re: I Predict

Merriweather gone either by the law or no contract extended

and then D. Butler will be replacing him

Darius Butler? He strikes me as the least safety-like CB on the roster.

 

[cstjohn17]

I'll love to hear what the wizened minds of this fine Forum think on this subject.

***

I'll start off by admitting, straight out: I'm a little mystified by the notion.

What attributes of a prospective Corner recommend him for conversion to Free Safety?

I get the basics: Fluidity. Hips. Turn and Burn. Read and React. Lateral Agility. Range. SPEED.

I understand that a Strong Safety leans toward the Run Game, and a Free Safety towards the Pass Game, so the former needs to be Stronger, and the latter needs to be Faster.

And I understand ~ or think I do ~ that the Corners need to be more physical if they play Man, and quicker if they play Zone.

Seems to me that the Free Safety ought have exceptional Processing Speed and Diagnostic Skills, if he's the Secondary's Field General: Read + React Speed and Aptitude are essential.

***

But I cannot for the LIFE of me distinguish what makes a guy a better Corner than Free Safety, or vice versa...or what makes a Corner a desirable Free Safety Conversion.

The reason for my inquiry is obvious, I'm sure.

Can anyone name any successful CB to Safety conversions? Most CBs are not physical enough or don't have the right make up to mix things up like Safety has to.

Gun to my head I would say Aaron Williams from Texas, Peterson from LSU has so much value because he can play any secondary position or even play in the box as an OLB in dime situations.

 

[MaineMan]

Can anyone name any successful CB to Safety conversions? Most CBs are not physical enough or don't have the right make up to mix things up like Safety has to.

Gun to my head I would say Aaron Williams from Texas, Peterson from LSU has so much value because he can play any secondary position or even play in the box as an OLB in dime situations.

Can't name any off the top of my head, but I suspect that's because such conversions have rarely involved higher, more well-known picks. I'd also guess that it's nearly always been a CB to "coverage safety" conversion rather than to a traditional in-the-box/strong safety role. Richard Sherman, projected 5th round or later, might be a candidate out of this draft for that coverage safety role.

I believe you're correct, though, about most college CBs not being physical enough, possibly not even physical enough to play CB for us. I think it really helps overall defense if your CBs are able and WILLING to come up and make a tackle in run support. Bodden and Arrington, as well as McCourty do this. Darius Butler and Asante Samuel, not so much. With CB prospects, I've begun to compare their TT stats as well as their pass defense stats.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Can anyone name any successful CB to Safety conversions? Most CBs are not physical enough or don't have the right make up to mix things up like Safety has to.

Gun to my head I would say Aaron Williams from Texas, Peterson from LSU has so much value because he can play any secondary position or even play in the box as an OLB in dime situations.

Eugene Wilson was okay for a while. Artrell Hawkins bailed out a devastated Safety crew in 05.

Around the league, I can't say, but BB has talked about using larger CBs at Safety several times as if it's common place.

 

[patchick]

Can anyone name any successful CB to Safety conversions?

Besides this guy?

 

[Snake Eyes]

Besides this guy?

I hear this guy was pretty good too.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Besides this guy?

Forgot about him He would probably owe the ommissioner a cool million in fines today haha.