Changes to be made for next year

[DaBruinz]

we should make a trade for domanick davis of houston
i know we talked about this earlier about a month ago
i think it would be a very efficient use of our draft pix, since hes better than any guy we could get in the first rd and u wouldnt have to trade a first rd pick to get him

Patsfan55 -
Why should we trade for Dominic Davis? Unless we want to hand-cuff ourselfs again by cutting Dillon and eating 5.4 million, then having Davis and Dillon is actually detrimental to the cap.

Also, I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment of comparing Davis to anyone we could take in the 1st round. Anyone we take is going to be behind Dillon for at least 1 year, if not 2, unless the Pats don't pick up Corey's option. If that happens, then Corey's cap hit changes.

Anyways, Davis isn't the answer, in my opinion.

 

[shakadave]

What a treat to read all the intelligent opinions and information on this thread! Five stars, and thanks Andy for starting it! You guys are worth 25 Boston Globes.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Supposedly Atlanta would be open to trading TJ Duckett. I don't know what their price is but Id give up a 3rd or a 4th for him. He's young and never found his place in the Atlanta because Vick and Dunn get all the touches.

 

[Mike the Brit]

The big loss: Givens

The big question mark: Harrison

The big problem: cap room

The big need: back-ups

We can't assume that we won't have the same number of injuries next year and this year showed that our assumptions about the depth of the team were too optimistic. In the past I've thought: Bethel will replace Patten, Klecko and TBC will contribute as line-backers, Cobbs will develop as a strength RB, Brown and Beisel will replace Bruschi and TJ, P.K. Sam will be a contributor, etc., etc. I still can't figure releasing Kelley and Traylor.

What's more, as someone pointed out, our special teams have been mediocre despite the roster slots devoted to them (Izzo, Davis, Chatham). I think that the team needs to look very hard at its second-tier players and make some tough decisions.

 

[NE_Paddy]

3) QB. We need a vet backup

No we don't.

Matt Cassell is our Matt Schaub.

And in regards to the guy who said he wants LenDale White in the draft... LenDale won't make it past Green Bay. His performance against the Longhorns ensured that.

But I think one of our biggest needs is not on the field of play. Presuming Eric takes the Jets job, we could have problems unless we get a crackin coordinator like Romeo or Eric.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

What's more, as someone pointed out, our special teams have been mediocre despite the roster slots devoted to them (Izzo, Davis, Chatham). I think that the team needs to look very hard at its second-tier players and make some tough decisions.

As regards special teams (a misnomer for several years now), the number 1 need is to replace Brad Seely! All else will flow from there...

 

[shakadave]

My two cents (Offense)

If Givens's departure is so certain, that means a first-day WR is needed. Otherwise, Troy and Davis battle for the #2 slot? I dont' like it.

I'm not worried about #3 QB. Cassel will be #2, and if we really need #3, it wasn't meant to be anyway. (cf. 2005 Jets)

I'm drooling at the tackles coming out this year. Draft the RT of the future, have Ashworth mentor him then back him up, release Gorin.

Dillon has one more year in New England, unless 2006 looks more like 2004. Maybe it will, maybe it won't --- we don't know. IN EITHER CASE, a backup with at least as much talent as Dominic Rhodes would be good.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

I'm drooling at the tackles coming out this year. Draft the RT of the future, have Ashworth mentor him then back him up, release Gorin.

In this scenario, reversing Ashworth and Gorin is more likely. Ashworth is a FA, Gorin is signed for two more years. I like the idea of drafting a good RT and going with Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kaczur, NewGuy unless Neal re-signs at our price.

 

[shakadave]

In this scenario, reversing Ashworth and Gorin is more likely. Ashworth is a FA, Gorin is signed for two more years. I like the idea of drafting a good RT and going with Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kaczur, NewGuy unless Neal re-signs at our price.

You're right. But it's all part of my theory that we'll keep Ashworth because of what he does at FB and TE. A true Belichick characteristic!

And I have no problem with keeping Neal either. If there were no such thing as injuries, Kaczur could be RT, Neal RG, and we wouldn't need to draft another OL.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Offensively, We are set at QB, TE, 3rd down back, O line and FB. Could use a backup TB (barring injury, Corey will be fine). Could use a TALL WR.

Defensively, we need MLB (we are set outside if we move Brown back out as back-up. Inside wasnt a good fit for him), and secondary help. Again, someone TALL. Our secondary also needs Rodney back, if not in uniform then carrying a clipboard and whistle. The reason other teams enjoyed throwing on us late was that no one paid with a pound of flesh for catching those balls. With Rodney in, catching a pass in the middle was paramount to suicide for WR's. And that mentality spread throughout the secondary. Not any more.

 

[mgteich]

aj,

I get the feeling that you believe that with a couple of tweaks, we are ready for 2006, and should be the favorite over PITT, INDY and DEN for the winning the conference. Just re-sign Givens, Neal and draft a RB for the future. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally, I think that there is a lot of work to do in the receiver corps and even a bit in the OL before the top teams reasonably fear our offense.

BUILDING FOR 2006 and 2007 - OFFENSE
This is early, but as of right now, we have a passing team with NOT ONE receiver we can count on past 2006. I like Davis as a WR with a future.

We choose to carry 3-4 running backs. We now have three, of which one a converted special teamer, one is a solid veteran, and the third is a 3rd down back. All were injured this year. We have a starting TE with one year to go, and no #3. I agree we need a stud backup RB, hopefully the RB of the future. I also believe that a blocking FB for occasional use (and a Ster) is of more use than a #6 receiver. A #6 and a #7 receiver can be on the practice squad. It would greatly increase our potential offensive looks to have two real running backs, a 3rd down back and a real fullback, plus Pass as our jack-of-all-trades #5.

Our OL is in reasonable shape Light,Mankins,Koppen,Hochstein,Kaycur with Gorin, Yates and Mruc as backups. I agree that we could use a stud to replace Ashworth and/or Neal. Britt could be re-signed.

BUILDING FOR 2006 and 2007 - DEFENSE
Here I am very confident. re-sign Poteat and Hawkins, upgrade a front seven backup or two (or not) and go for the gold.

BUILDING FOR 2006 and 2007 - SPECIAL TEAMS
I don't see us signing Vinatieri to a long-term guaranteed contract. Maybe we'll pay him one more time to be the highest paid kicker in the league, by far.

 

[DaBruinz]

Offensively, We are set at QB, TE, 3rd down back, O line and FB. Could use a backup TB (barring injury, Corey will be fine). Could use a TALL WR.

Defensively, we need MLB (we are set outside if we move Brown back out as back-up. Inside wasnt a good fit for him), and secondary help. Again, someone TALL. Our secondary also needs Rodney back, if not in uniform then carrying a clipboard and whistle. The reason other teams enjoyed throwing on us late was that no one paid with a pound of flesh for catching those balls. With Rodney in, catching a pass in the middle was paramount to suicide for WR's. And that mentality spread throughout the secondary. Not any more.

Shirtsleeve -
The Patriots don't use MLBs. They use ILBs. And there is a significant difference in the position.

The Patriots only have 2 TEs. If you were following the season, you'd see that they have a BIG need for a 3rd TE. The guy doesn't have to be a 1st round pick. But definitely a guy who can fill-in for Watson or Graham as needed.

How are the Pats "SET" at QB? They have Brady, Cassel, and Mortenson (a street free agent with no game experience). The Pats will need to sign a veteran presence.

The Pats are set for O-line? Really? Who is the starting RG since Neal is an unrestricted Free agent?

Why do the Pats NEED secondary help? That is their deepest position besides the D-line.
Currently signed: Gay, Hobbs, Samuel, Harrison, Sanders, E. Wilson, Poole (expected to be cut), Starks (expected to restructure his deal). G. Scott is a ERFA and will probably be tendered an offer unless BB decides to cut his losses.

I'd also expect Michael Stone and Artrell Hawkins back since they brought a lot of stability to the team in terms of Special Teams Play (Stone) and regular play on the field (Hawkins).

Now, Could the Pats use a taller Safety or Corner? Someone like a Jimmy Williams or Richard Marshall? Yes. But its not a NEED.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Shirtsleeve -
The Patriots don't use MLBs. They use ILBs. And there is a significant difference in the position.

Yup. Semantic error. Tedy is getting on, and may have a couple of seasons left. Monty has a hot wife, but his play, while ok of late, isn't near as hot. Brown cant handle the inside. Move him back outside where he belongs. Vrabel is starting to get old too. A couple of seasons left. Here I would draft.

The Patriots only have 2 TEs. If you were following the season, you'd see that they have a BIG need for a 3rd TE. The guy doesn't have to be a 1st round pick. But definitely a guy who can fill-in for Watson or Graham as needed.

2 is ok in my book. disagree with the big need. again, as long as these two can stay healthy for a whole season. They use ILB's and others there too. and Faulk has big duty on third down. Never a fan of a 3te set.

How are the Pats "SET" at QB? They have Brady, Cassel, and Mortenson (a street free agent with no game experience). The Pats will need to sign a veteran presence.

2 is ok with me. Maybe an oldster fa for insurance? Not a major concern. Like Cassel alot as bu. Hate to waste the roster spot here, though. Just my preference. Like someone pointed out on another thread, if you are down to your third QB, your season is shot already.

The Pats are set for O-line? Really? Who is the starting RG since Neal is an unrestricted Free agent?

caveat. effort needs to be made to sign our OL fa's.
With others returning from injury, we will THEN be set at O line. This unit has to stay intact and injury free for continuity. without it, there goes the running game. Again.

Why do the Pats NEED secondary help? That is their deepest position besides the D-line.
Currently signed: Gay, Hobbs, Samuel, Harrison, Sanders, E. Wilson, Poole (expected to be cut), Starks (expected to restructure his deal). G. Scott is a ERFA and will probably be tendered an offer unless BB decides to cut his losses.

I'd also expect Michael Stone and Artrell Hawkins back since they brought a lot of stability to the team in terms of Special Teams Play (Stone) and regular play on the field (Hawkins).

IMO, one absolute shutdown cover corner and one monster SS are required to make this D special. Hopefully Rodney comes back. If not, I see noone on the list above that brings his presence to the middle of the backfield. Capable, yes. Dominating? No way.
Ditto at corner. Very capable with lots of youth and upside. No Laws or Baileys though. And all of em as short as I am. Depth of average talent is nothing special. We need, and I mean absolutely NEED one corner and the SS to be monsters. Standouts. Pro Bowlers. We have none now.

Now, Could the Pats use a taller Safety or Corner? Someone like a Jimmy Williams or Richard Marshall? Yes. But its not a NEED.

Ten characters

 

[DaBruinz]

Ten characters

Shirtsleeve -
If you are going to do a line item quote, could you do something to off-set your text from that you are quoting. Like put it in BOLD, or RED letters or something?

1) Its not symantics. The MLB and ILB are 2 different positions. 1 is using the the 4-3 offense and the other in the 3-4 offense. While Bruschi may be "getting up there is years" (he's only 32), the Patriots have added Beisel and Ryan Claridge. Could they add another? Sure.

Now, why would you keep Brown? Also, why do you claim he can't handle the inside? Because, he wasn't particularly great for a few games? Damn, I didn't realize that the Patriots defense was so simple that anyone could just learn it. I guess that make Vrabel and Bruschi dummies since they took more than a year each to get the defense down the way they know it now.

2) Unfortunately, Neither Graham nor Watson have been able to stay healthy for an entire season. Hence the need for a 3rd TE. Since you missed it, Using Klecko and Seymour as a blocking TE has resulted in BOTH of them having knee issues. Klecko got his ACL torn and Seymour sprained his MCL twice. Do you REALLY want to take out the Pats best DEFENSIVE player again by using him as a blocking TE on offense?

3) Thank god that your preference isn't that of the Patriots under Belichick. The Pats will sign a veteran QB as insurance. I like Cassel too. However, he hasn't shown enough yet to prove he's enough to have at back-up. BTW, to my knowledge, BB has NEVER carried only 2 QBs. In fact, most teams carry 3 because the 3rd is an Emergency back and isn't part of the 45 man game roster.

4) The Patriots don't NEED to resign Neal or Ashworth. I wouldn't mind having both back, but I doubt its going to happen. There are teams out there who are going to pay those two some decent money.

5) Ty Law isn't the dominating presence he was 3 years ago. I don't care what he did with the Jets. A "SHUT DOWN" corner is not a MUST for this defense. Its a luxury. As is a "DOMINATING" Strong Safety. They are luxuries. Do we need ones that are good to very good? Yes for both. And if the Pats can upgrade, they should. However, you aren't going to find that DOMINATING Strong Safety in the draft because there isn't one really. Same with the "shut down" corner. They would have to be drafted and developed.

BTW, Where was the "SHUT DOWN" corner in 2004 when the Pats won their 3rd SB? That's right. The Pats put up an 13-2 record without Ty Law. Guess that kinda blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?

Also, the Pro-Bowl is meaningless. Its a popularity contest. If you knew anything about the Patriots, you'd know that.

The Patriots need to add people who are TEAM PLAYERS. They don't need to be the BEST at their position. They just need to do their job as its defined by the TEAM.

 

[shirtsleeve]

I'll off set inside quotes

very aware of the difference. 4-3 mlb is a much different job. it was a symantics error on my part. and its defense, not offense

id bring brown to camp, let him tryout for the outside, and if he plays anywhere near the level he used to on outside, id keep him for depth.

ok, ok. so there is a need for a third tight end. not a place to dump a lot of cap, though. lets see if these guys can stay healthy this season, all season. if not, maybe a change needs to be made. but lets give them that chance.

yup. not part of the 45 man roster and is listed with the injury report, like he isnt active, unless used. then #1 and#2 cant be used. just my personal opinion that we dont tie up much cap here either. and they are part of the 53 man roster. so i would rather not carry a third. bb always has. so you will see us bring in a third. doesn't mean we have a need here, which is what the original question was. see, i think Cassel would be a fine#2. so lets get a vet fa
for #3. like you say about db's would it be nice, sure. do we need one, nah.

ol is where we spend some of that valuable cap to keep these guys. especially neal. but that wont be nearly as expensive as trying to pay givens. it all starts up front. and as long as they dont get stupid in a bidding war, keep em.

this is where i will always disagree. on every point. except that these people draw way to much money on the fa market. there are potential future stars at db in the draft this year. williams is one. this is where i would draft again.

i dont care about how tatupu played on the seahawks this year either. but it doesn't take his season away, does it? yeah, law got caught a bit for pi, but he also made a huge difference in the backfield. is he the dominant force of three years ago? no. now im not saying we go get him. just lets spend the draft choices here first. a brutal secondary is what we dont have anymore. it stands between a good d with a solid front 7 and one of the best d's in the league.

the bowl is meaningless. but playing to that calibur, like many on this team do, isnt. how does rodney not make the thing last year? you tell me.

so, to sum it up, i guess im saying we dedicate our first day draft choices at linebacker, defensive back, and wide reciever. places like qb, and te, are great places to get some experience at short dollars through fa, for back ups. day 2 may be a place for a rb. and o line is where we pay some $ to keep em, and solidify the offense. oh, yeah, lets flip a few pennies at a certain dl too. baby face richard would like some love. he earned it.

 

[Bostonian1962]

What do you feel needs to change for next year?

My opinion:

1) Offensive Line. I think our OL had its worst year since 2002. Sure you can use the injuries to Dillon as a rationalization. Yes Brady was not sacked a lot, but he saw tough pressure at critical times that affected what he could do.
Hopefully Light and Koppen are 100%. They are our 2 best OL. Mankins will be better in year 2, even though I thought we played pretty well. I am not sold on Neal being a stud. He may be allowed to leave. Kaczur IMO will start somewhere, but if Light is healthy it wont be LT. Possibly RT. We may end up with only Mankins remaining as a starter from the team that played Saturday.

2) Secondary. Of course making changes depends on staying healthy. We couldnt have bolstered the secondary more than we did last off-season. I am thrilled with Samuel and Hobbs III at corners. Gay should be OK as a #3. Between Starks, Poole, Chad Scott, Poteat, we will bring back some expereinced depth. If Harrison is OK, I like our safeties with Rodney, Wilson, then Hawkins and the best of the rest. (Whoever earns it, my guess so far is Sanders) Change will depend on health, but just a return to health would equal change.

3) QB. We need a vet backup

4) WR. IF Givens returns, and I feel he will, we will just have a reshuffling of backups. We have enough quality guys in Brown, Dwight, Davis, Bethel that returneed plus minor moves will keep us in fine shape. If Givens is not back we will sign a replacement FA.

5) RB. I think we absolutely need a draft pick to groom. 06 will be fine with Dillon and Faulk, but that replacement needs to be in the mix. I'd like to see it be a day one pick with potential who could help in 06 but may not.

6) K. Is it only me, or does anyone else feel Vinaiteri may not be back? I think that his money demands may be much less likely to meet after Saturdays game. His biggest value is clutch. He missed one, shanked another that got through, and was awful on kickoffs (surprisingly because he was good this year) in the thin air. He isnt getting any younger. I know Ks last forever, but AV has been in the NFL 10 years now, and losing some leg strength could be coming. I know he is an icon, but do we pay top dollar at this point in his career? I probably would, but Im not sure BB will.

AJ, you basically got it right. Usually do. I'm guessing that we will never see Poole around here again. Starks more likely, but not definite. Poole - say bye, bye.

I'm PRO keeping Adam.

 

[stcjones]

Vinny......

What do you feel needs to change for next year?

My opinion:

1) Offensive Line. I think our OL had its worst year since 2002. Sure you can use the injuries to Dillon as a rationalization. Yes Brady was not sacked a lot, but he saw tough pressure at critical times that affected what he could do.
Hopefully Light and Koppen are 100%. They are our 2 best OL. Mankins will be better in year 2, even though I thought we played pretty well. I am not sold on Neal being a stud. He may be allowed to leave. Kaczur IMO will start somewhere, but if Light is healthy it wont be LT. Possibly RT. We may end up with only Mankins remaining as a starter from the team that played Saturday.

2) Secondary. Of course making changes depends on staying healthy. We couldnt have bolstered the secondary more than we did last off-season. I am thrilled with Samuel and Hobbs III at corners. Gay should be OK as a #3. Between Starks, Poole, Chad Scott, Poteat, we will bring back some expereinced depth. If Harrison is OK, I like our safeties with Rodney, Wilson, then Hawkins and the best of the rest. (Whoever earns it, my guess so far is Sanders) Change will depend on health, but just a return to health would equal change.

3) QB. We need a vet backup

4) WR. IF Givens returns, and I feel he will, we will just have a reshuffling of backups. We have enough quality guys in Brown, Dwight, Davis, Bethel that returneed plus minor moves will keep us in fine shape. If Givens is not back we will sign a replacement FA.

5) RB. I think we absolutely need a draft pick to groom. 06 will be fine with Dillon and Faulk, but that replacement needs to be in the mix. I'd like to see it be a day one pick with potential who could help in 06 but may not.

6) K. Is it only me, or does anyone else feel Vinaiteri may not be back? I think that his money demands may be much less likely to meet after Saturdays game. His biggest value is clutch. He missed one, shanked another that got through, and was awful on kickoffs (surprisingly because he was good this year) in the thin air. He isnt getting any younger. I know Ks last forever, but AV has been in the NFL 10 years now, and losing some leg strength could be coming. I know he is an icon, but do we pay top dollar at this point in his career? I probably would, but Im not sure BB will.

will be back.....come on Andy...that is the easiest one...He is the greatest clutch kicker in NFL history IMHO and has PLENTY left....plus as you say he is AN icon and a NE legend........he is awful on kickoffs however..........Oline was a disaster as you say.....agree we need a backup vet QB....doubt flutes can get it done now (not that he was that consistent to begin with)...........agree with drafting a stud RB......need a kid that can learn under Corey....AND hopefully step in next year as well some.....Faulk and Pass are not your answers if Dillon goes down........Secondary may need another vet (doubt Chad Scott or Poteat will be back.......Poole questionable as to coming back as well isn't he.....there will be some more additions there.......as well as a few draftees too!) Wait a minute andy...did you say the word that I thought you said? STARKS? That name is Blasphemy in New England!!!! Shame on you Andy......what are you thinking here??? Starks was on a greyhound out of town weeks ago........

LB core must be addressed....either FA or draft....not sure if the "Full" Monty will be back.......

WR....I think we need to resign Givens...in any other heavy passing offense the guy has the skills to be a #1.......HOWEVER, he did have some bad drops this year....which I do not think he had problems with before....he WAS pretty darned clutch.....interesting to see what BB does.......I think Bethel is done.....WR's will be Branch, Givens, A. Davis, PK Sam (that is right PK) and Maybe Bam.....Dwight possibly.....Brown????? questionable.......

good discussion points Andy.....

 

[stcjones]

He's go 5-6 yrs.........

Adam will be 34 in December, that day is coming a lot sooner than we would like to think.

Like Gary Anderson

 

[stcjones]

Duckett....

Supposedly Atlanta would be open to trading TJ Duckett. I don't know what their price is but Id give up a 3rd or a 4th for him. He's young and never found his place in the Atlanta because Vick and Dunn get all the touches.

Duckett has a fair amount of miles on the odometer doesn't he though? And....every year he seems to get more injury prone......not a big fan of this move personally

 

[spacecrime]

OTOH, this year looks like a regression (whether it was or not) simply because he had such a banner year in 2004.

??? He missed half the 40+ yad field goals he attempted. His year was at best middle of the pack last year, certainly not a top ten kicker in the league even though he earned top money, more than any other kicker.