Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[RobertWeathers]

It's title or bust this year. First time I would say that during this era but it is

Yep. It really comes down to expectations.

This team has been to the ECF 6 of the last 8 years and The Finals two years ago. They've set the expectation this team is consistenly one of the four best in the NBA at the end of the year.

They've had a dominant 2023-24 regular season and have added veterans to their young core.

They are 12-2 in the playoffs. They are winning in blowout fashion and grinding out tight victories on the road.

It looks like KP might be able to give it a go in a couple of weeks.

The perceived "tough teams" in DEN, MN and OKC are home on the couch.

DAL is white hot but an inferior team.

If this team does not close the deal it'll be a massive disappointment and yes.....a failure to meet expectations.

 

[Vindicate]

Great win! But that's twice now that Carlisle has not called a timeout leading to a critical steal at the end of the game.

Pacers remind me of the growing pains with the team and Mazz last year. They'll get it figured out.

 

[jimnance]

I know you and I had this discussion.
I think you may be getting white confused with being the second best with most clutch.
He by far is the most clutch player on the team.
He is likely the 3rd best player on the team.
Tatum and brown are superior athletes to him.
They can get shots of thier own athletic ability
White is a smart, crafty player and excellent ball handler. And a dam good 3 point shooter.
I've always said owners show players how they view them by the contract. That's what brown got. Nonetheless our starting 5 is all NBA caliber. I want White extended he'll probably get something similar to what jrue got.

Disagree. White is also able to create his own shot. He does it all the time.
Browns contract does not equal his value.
Everyone knows this including Brad Stevens and Brown.
I love Jaylen but he isn't close to being a top 10 player in the nba. That's ridiculous.
He got that contract due to the timing. C's really had no choice. He was their 2nd best player at the time. He's a much better player now than then. That was before Jrue and Porzi were here and White was a recent arrival who hadn't become Superman yet.
Being a superior athlete doesn't mean that much. Matter of fact, the majority of great NBA athletes from the past and now were/are not " super athletic" types.
MJ one of the few exceptions.
Even today, let's look at the best nba players over the last 5 years,including now:
Not necessarily in order: Jokic, Steph Curry, Durant, Doncic,Embiid,SGA,Butler,
Paul,Kawhi,etc etc.
Brown wouldn't even be in top 25.
Ant wouldn't make top 15.
Giannis is about the only exception.
Tatum has only recently become super athletic over last two years. Obviously spent time in the weight room.
The 2 most important athletic traits for an NBA player are speed and quickness, not big muscles.
But all that being said, let's get back to Jaylen Brown.
This season's Brown has a case for being the 2nd best Celtic. I'd still put White slightly ahead of him but you could make a strong case for Brown.
He sucked early in the season. No other way to put it. He was easily the worst of the 5 starters.
But damn, what a turnaround! He worked his ass off outside of games. I played a lot of hoops- you don't raise your game as much as he did w/o putting in a lot of hard work and sacrifice outside games- not just in practice but on his own time as well.
He also did a great self- evaluation of where he and the team were early this season and how he could make both better.
He's become a great player. No question.
So whether he's the 2nd or 3rd best Celtic doesn't matter. C's are not where they are now w/o him. He's become the best version of himself. I would argue very few nba players ever do that.
He has a different skillset than White or anyone else on the team. And one thats badly needed.That's true of all 5 starters. You just don't often see 5 starters who are all good-great players.
And all are 2 way players which is even rarer.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I know you and I had this discussion.
I think you may be getting white confused with being the second best with most clutch.
He by far is the most clutch player on the team.
He is likely the 3rd best player on the team.
Tatum and brown are superior athletes to him.
They can get shots of thier own athletic ability
White is a smart, crafty player and excellent ball handler. And a dam good 3 point shooter.
I've always said owners show players how they view them by the contract. That's what brown got. Nonetheless our starting 5 is all NBA caliber. I want White extended he'll probably get something similar to what jrue got.

Recent article said that some GMs believe White is 2nd best player on team. Contract also has to do with timing and all nba teams. I don’t buy your argument, and we’ll see what White gets regardless. He hasn’t hit FA since breaking out.

 

[Kdo5]

Disagree. White is also able to create his own shot. He does it all the time.
Browns contract does not equal his value.
Everyone knows this including Brad Stevens and Brown.
I love Jaylen but he isn't close to being a top 10 player in the nba. That's ridiculous.
He got that contract due to the timing. C's really had no choice. He was their 2nd best player at the time. He's a much better player now than then. That was before Jrue and Porzi were here and White was a recent arrival who hadn't become Superman yet.
Being a superior athlete doesn't mean that much. Matter of fact, the majority of great NBA athletes from the past and now were/are not " super athletic" types.
MJ one of the few exceptions.
Even today, let's look at the best nba players over the last 5 years,including now:
Not necessarily in order: Jokic, Steph Curry, Durant, Doncic,Embiid,SGA,Butler,
Paul,Kawhi,etc etc.
Brown wouldn't even be in top 25.
Ant wouldn't make top 15.
Giannis is about the only exception.
Tatum has only recently become super athletic over last two years. Obviously spent time in the weight room.
The 2 most important athletic traits for an NBA player are speed and quickness, not big muscles.
But all that being said, let's get back to Jaylen Brown.
This season's Brown has a case for being the 2nd best Celtic. I'd still put White slightly ahead of him but you could make a strong case for Brown.
He sucked early in the season. No other way to put it. He was easily the worst of the 5 starters.
But damn, what a turnaround! He worked his ass off outside of games. I played a lot of hoops- you don't raise your game as much as he did w/o putting in a lot of hard work and sacrifice outside games- not just in practice but on his own time as well.
He also did a great self- evaluation of where he and the team were early this season and how he could make both better.
He's become a great player. No question.
So whether he's the 2nd or 3rd best Celtic doesn't matter. C's are not where they are now w/o him. He's become the best version of himself. I would argue very few nba players ever do that.
He has a different skillset than White or anyone else on the team. And one thats badly needed.That's true of all 5 starters. You just don't often see 5 starters who are all good-great players.
And all are 2 way players which is even rarer.

Yeah like the first ten games he wasn’t very efficient. You harp on that on several occasions. What matters more the NBA playoffs or the first 2-3 weeks of the season where he needs to adjust a role?

I don’t get why you bring that up on multiple occasions like it means something….

Believe Brown is the second best or believe White is the second best. Doesn’t matter. Brown has proved his worth many times over. He isn’t the 5th best player on the team after all and he sure as hell belongs in the starting lineup. Lol

 

[jimnance]

Yeah like the first ten games he wasn’t very efficient. You harp on that on several occasions. What matters more the NBA playoffs or the first 2-3 weeks of the season where he needs to adjust a role?

I don’t get why you bring that up on multiple occasions like it means something….

Believe Brown is the second best or believe White is the second best. Doesn’t matter. Brown has proved his worth many times over. He isn’t the 5th best player on the team after all.

I was just responding to @ realfans post.
Not harping on anything.
You're right. Playoffs matter more.
Brown sucked in playoffs last year and was a major reason C's lost game 7 to Miami.
Then he started this season playing tge same stupid brand of basketball.
But he turned it around.
He's now a great player,teammate and asset to the team.

 

[Kdo5]

I was just responding to @ realfans post.
Not harping on anything.
You're right. Playoffs matter more.
Brown sucked in playoffs last year and was a major reason C's lost game 7 to Miami.
Then he started this season playing tge same stupid brand of basketball.
But he turned it around.
He's now a great player,teammate and asset to the team.

I realize that, just that you’ve talked about it before several times. No matter you’ve been very complimentary of Brown throughout the season. If you and Ice are quite certain he is not the second best player I don’t mind that opinion.

All that matters is that respect is being put on his name and recognition that the Celtics starting lineup is indeed better with him in it than Sam Hauser.

 

[Real fan 02]

Disagree. White is also able to create his own shot. He does it all the time.
Browns contract does not equal his value.
Everyone knows this including Brad Stevens and Brown.
I love Jaylen but he isn't close to being a top 10 player in the nba. That's ridiculous.
He got that contract due to the timing. C's really had no choice. He was their 2nd best player at the time. He's a much better player now than then. That was before Jrue and Porzi were here and White was a recent arrival who hadn't become Superman yet.
Being a superior athlete doesn't mean that much. Matter of fact, the majority of great NBA athletes from the past and now were/are not " super athletic" types.
MJ one of the few exceptions.
Even today, let's look at the best nba players over the last 5 years,including now:
Not necessarily in order: Jokic, Steph Curry, Durant, Doncic,Embiid,SGA,Butler,
Paul,Kawhi,etc etc.
Brown wouldn't even be in top 25.
Ant wouldn't make top 15.
Giannis is about the only exception.
Tatum has only recently become super athletic over last two years. Obviously spent time in the weight room.
The 2 most important athletic traits for an NBA player are speed and quickness, not big muscles.
But all that being said, let's get back to Jaylen Brown.
This season's Brown has a case for being the 2nd best Celtic. I'd still put White slightly ahead of him but you could make a strong case for Brown.
He sucked early in the season. No other way to put it. He was easily the worst of the 5 starters.
But damn, what a turnaround! He worked his ass off outside of games. I played a lot of hoops- you don't raise your game as much as he did w/o putting in a lot of hard work and sacrifice outside games- not just in practice but on his own time as well.
He also did a great self- evaluation of where he and the team were early this season and how he could make both better.
He's become a great player. No question.
So whether he's the 2nd or 3rd best Celtic doesn't matter. C's are not where they are now w/o him. He's become the best version of himself. I would argue very few nba players ever do that.
He has a different skillset than White or anyone else on the team. And one thats badly needed.That's true of all 5 starters. You just don't often see 5 starters who are all good-great players.
And all are 2 way players which is even rarer.

Lol..ok i see while we agreed on just about everything else I'll just say this. White isn't the 2nd best player on the team. Tatum, brown, white, in that order.

Wyc says that why he paid JB accordingly! If white weren't playing I'd still love our chances if one of the Js isn't forget about it. It really isn't a debate anymore.

 

[Real fan 02]

I realize that, just that you’ve talked about it before several times. No matter you’ve been very complimentary of Brown throughout the season. If you and Ice are quite certain he is not the second best player I don’t mind that opinion.

All that matters is that respect is being put on his name and recognition that the Celtics starting lineup is indeed better with him in it than Sam Hauser.

Lol.. in his celtics mind he knows white isn't the 2nd best player every one else plays of the Js. That's the way the team was constructed. White is clutch, he's a piece in the cog. Brown hands down is the Cs 2nd best player all around.

 

[Kdo5]

Lol.. in his celtics mind he knows white isn't the 2nd best player every one else plays of the Js. That's the way the team was constructed. White is clutch, he's a piece in the cog. Brown hands down is the Cs 2nd best player all around.

And ever more important to the team culture I think. There’s a lot of good locker room guys but he is definitely showing up as a true leader with Marcus Smart out of the way. You can see that the team seems to rally behind him. He has some intangibles that don’t show up in the stat sheet which are very important as well.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

And ever more important to the team culture I think. There’s a lot of good locker room guys but he is definitely showing up as a true leader with Marcus Smart out of the way. You can see that the team seems to rally behind him. He has some intangibles that don’t show up in the stat sheet which are very important as well.

I never liked Smart as a vocal leader. His hustle was great, and he has done well in Memphis when not injured, but I am not sure he is a great vocal leader.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

It looks like KP might be able to give it a go in a couple of weeks.

Was this more Woj tweets? I am very skeptical. KP was not nearly ready like Woj's last tweets.

 

[Real fan 02]

Recent article said that some GMs believe White is 2nd best player on team. Contract also has to do with timing and all nba teams. I don’t buy your argument, and we’ll see what White gets regardless. He hasn’t hit FA since breaking out.

There is no argument. Argument is null n void. Wyc told Brad to pay brown. Brad is the only GM that matters. So don't know where you got your sources from..

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Why are you being a ****? Yeah they got swept but they put forward a really strong effort and pushed us. They didn’t have the experience to close out against a team like the Celtics. If you have a problem with other people acknowledging that, which the team itself is doing, just ignore it.

We disagree. The poster being a **** is the one that starts name calling over an Internet disagreement.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Was this more Woj tweets? I am very skeptical. KP was not nearly ready like Woj's last tweets.

I said "might".

Latest update on Porzingis' injury recovery entering NBA Finals

Will Kristaps Porzingis be ready for Game 1 of the NBA Finals? Here's the latest update on the injured Celtics big man.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[aluminum seats]

Was this more Woj tweets? I am very skeptical. KP was not nearly ready like Woj's last tweets.

Not sure how we could say that one way or the other. Really, he will just end up playing at some point or not, I don't think we're going to see some grand activity before then

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

There is no argument. Argument is null n void. Wyc told Brad to pay brown. Brad is the only GM that matters. So don't know where you got your sources from..

You’re confusing me.

Your argument is that a player’s value is determined by his contract, or whatever the team think he’s worth, which I don’t agree with. In particular, Brown’s contract was a template due to All NBA designation.

And again, we don’t even know White’s market value yet.

Regardless I like a lot of your posts but think like this is not a compelling way to argue Brown > White. It’s fine if you believe that, but merely citing a contract Brown signed last year as a bulletproof reason isn’t valid when held up to scrutiny. Imagine if we did player value rankings based only on player contracts?

Here’s the article, and I was careful to quote it that “some” GMs believe White is their second best player. The number is unclear.

Lowe: Derrick White, Josh Hart and the 'small' trades that turn good teams into title contenders

There's a massive middle ground between the superstar megatrade and a tanking team dealing away quality players. And it's those marginal trades -- and non-trades -- that can redefine entire franchises and turn .500 teams into champions.

www.espn.com

 

[Real fan 02]

You’re confusing me.

Your argument is that a player’s value is determined by his contract, or whatever the team think he’s worth, which I don’t agree with. In particular, Brown’s contract was a template due to All NBA designation.

And again, we don’t even know White’s market value yet.

Regardless I like a lot of your posts but think like this is not a compelling way to argue Brown > White. It’s fine if you believe that, but merely citing a contract Brown signed last year as a bulletproof reason isn’t valid when held up to scrutiny. Imagine if we did player value rankings based only on player contracts?

Here’s the article, and I was careful to quote it that “some” GMs believe White is their second best player. The number is unclear.

Lowe: Derrick White, Josh Hart and the 'small' trades that turn good teams into title contenders

There's a massive middle ground between the superstar megatrade and a tanking team dealing away quality players. And it's those marginal trades -- and non-trades -- that can redefine entire franchises and turn .500 teams into champions.

www.espn.com

Thank you for sharing this. Sorry if I'm appearing to confuse you on waht I'm trying to say. Thank you as well as I enjoy alot of your post, and you and I typically agree on alot of topics.

I was being fecious on when I made that comment on how GMs and owners view players. Brown commanded a Max contract becuase as you know that's what teams are allowed to offer players who they identify as Max players. Brown like white in alot of ways was raw when he first came in the NBA. He worked and got better each season. Brown is more athletic gifted than say white wich helps his game alot especially getting to the rim. White is a player every coach wants. Super clutch, excellent defensive player, became one of the leagues best 3 point shooters. He may not be considered a Max player, but I believe he deserves a nice contract extension say in the range of what holiday got. In terms of hierarchy everything ebbs and flows around the Js. Of course as you know. I want this team to be kept together I hope white can be extended hate to lose him.

 

[Zuma]

In terms of hierarchy everything ebbs and flows around the Js.

 

[Real fan 02]

My guy Zuma!