Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I’m sorry you can throw all the numbers at me but my eye balls tell a completely different story.

So you don’t notice when Brown goes off the court and the team immediately goes on a big run (19-2 run tonight the second he was removed) and how they either tread water or fall into a deficit the second he steps back on? That’s what the +/- numbers and the eye test show consistently. Start paying attention only to the scoreboard and Brown’s presence/ absence and it will change your perspective. The team always loses with him in the game unless Tatum completely carries the load.

 

[Kdo5]

So you don’t notice when Brown goes off the court and the team immediately goes on a big run (19-2 run tonight the second he was removed) and how they either tread water or fall into a deficit the second he steps back on? That’s what the +/- numbers and the eye test show consistently. Start paying attention only to the scoreboard and Brown’s presence/ absence and it will change your perspective. The team always loses with him in the game unless Tatum completely carries the load.

I think that’s an insane take. Even if the team had performed better when he’s not playing in a small sample size this season, which is debatable if we chose to analyze exactly who is playing with who.

Perhaps you haven’t watched the course of Jaylen Brown’s career. That dude has been the spark and center of numerous huge runs throughout the years against good competition. There’s rarely a player on the court other than Tatum who can simply take over a game. Brown is one of those guys. Holliday is not, Porzingis is not. I refuse to believe you can’t acknowledge his importance. Your eyeball test is garbage if you think Jaylen isn’t a central piece to a championship.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think that’s an insane take. Even if the team had performed better when he’s not playing in a small sample size this season, which is very debatable if you look at how Brown plays with.

Perhaps you haven’t watched the course of Jaylen Brown’s career. That dude has been the spark and center of numerous huge runs throughout the years. There’s rarely a player on the court other than Tatum who can simply take over a game. I refuse to believe you can’t acknowledge this. Your eyeball test is garbage if you think Jaylen isn’t a central piece to a championship.

No point in arguing with you since you’re not going to look at the numbers or diverge from the conventional Jaylen Brown narrative. There are many NBA “stars” over the years who were “the man” and scored a lot of points but in hindsight were very inefficient players who negatively impacted the team’s chances of winning. Even prior to this year, during his best seasons, he was only worth about 2 wins over a replacement player.

He’s a better fit for a team (like previous iterations of the Celtics) that lack many offensive weapons and require iso offensive schemes. That isn’t this team anymore.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

He’s a better fit for a team (like previous iterations of the Celtics) that lack many offensive weapons and require iso offensive schemes. That isn’t this team anymore.

I agree that we want to move away from iso play (still 17th in assists per game). Let's see if Brown adjusts. He has been passing and cutting more. I love J Holiday's game, we might see Brown learn a thing or two.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I agree that we want to move away from iso play (still 17th in assists per game). Let's see if Brown adjusts. He has been passing and cutting more. I love J Holiday's game, we might see Brown learn a thing or two.

He started getting the ball last night at the top of the key. I think this makes more sense because it prevents the wing iso stuff and improves his playmaking.

Agree, Holiday’s game is awesome. Not sure Milwaukee even got the better player in that deal.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

He started getting the ball last night at the top of the key. I think this makes more sense because it prevents the wing iso stuff and improves his playmaking.

Agree, Holiday’s game is awesome. Not sure Milwaukee even got the better player in that deal.

Yes Brown is trying to play pick and roll with Porzi too. I understand anyone's hesitation, and he will never be Tatum, but I think Brown can grow. Brown is not Smart who I felt had to go.

Even if the Bucks got the better player, the upgrade is trivial compared to us going from Brogdan to Holiday. Brogdan is playing well, but Holiday is a triple double waiting to happen. Hauser is great and Pritchard is showing signs of figuring it out.

 

[Jim Beankie]

So you don’t notice when Brown goes off the court and the team immediately goes on a big run (19-2 run tonight the second he was removed) and how they either tread water or fall into a deficit the second he steps back on? That’s what the +/- numbers and the eye test show consistently. Start paying attention only to the scoreboard and Brown’s presence/ absence and it will change your perspective. The team always loses with him in the game unless Tatum completely carries the load.

Who'd you rather have in there though? Even though he's on fire, you mentioned Hauser, but he' got a 5 game minus streak. Also, what are your thoughts on the budding screen play with KP (edit: missed that it was mentioned by OIBS)?

 

[jimnance]

+/- by itself is a meaningless stat.
Like ?all stats in any sport, context is what matters.
Who was on the court with Brown, with Tatum etc. ? If you dont break every minute of that down with every single player,it's a useless stat.
I don't pay any attention to it.
Brown had a great game followed by a very good game. Period.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Whoo..I need to look around this forum more. Didn't know there was a place to discuss the Cs. Great

And on that note, I still hate Mazzulla...he sux!!

 

[RobertWeathers]

And on that note, I still hate Mazzulla...he sux!!

Why do you say that?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Last 2 games Pritch is ave 10/5.5/3.5 in 27min of playing time.

I'll take that for a 3rd guard.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Who'd you rather have in there though? Even though he's on fire, you mentioned Hauser, but he' got a 5 game minus streak. Also, what are your thoughts on the budding screen play with KP (edit: missed that it was mentioned by OIBS)?

Yeah I noticed Hauser’s +- isn’t doing great, but let’s remember he’s almost never in the game with the power lineup like Brown.

I like the KP-JB screen game. Seems like Mazulla is pairing Tatum and Holiday (playmakers) and then KP-JB (pick n roll) with the rotations. It’s a good start.

+/- by itself is a meaningless stat.
Like ?all stats in any sport, context is what matters.
Who was on the court with Brown, with Tatum etc. ? If you dont break every minute of that down with every single player,it's a useless stat.
I don't pay any attention to it.
Brown had a great game followed by a very good game. Period.

Yes, Brown’s +/- should be inflated by virtue of three all-stars and White (who plays as all-star level.). I don’t really know what stat to cite for you. Defensive efficiency, true field goal percentage, plus-minus, low assists, low rebounds, middling PER, win/loss record better without him. If you want to focus only on volume scoring and volume shooting, and ultimately points, sure, Brown is golden.

Disagree with your last statement unless you add “for him” to call it a “great game” and “very good game.”

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Last 2 games Pritch is ave 10/5.5/3.5 in 27min of playing time.

I'll take that for a 3rd guard.

He can score more. Otherwise his progression will be slow. Great backup but needs to score more.

 

[They_Hate_We]

No point in arguing with you since you’re not going to look at the numbers or diverge from the conventional Jaylen Brown narrative. There are many NBA “stars” over the years who were “the man” and scored a lot of points but in hindsight were very inefficient players who negatively impacted the team’s chances of winning. Even prior to this year, during his best seasons, he was only worth about 2 wins over a replacement player.

He’s a better fit for a team (like previous iterations of the Celtics) that lack many offensive weapons and require iso offensive schemes. That isn’t this team anymore.

Dominique Wilkins comes to mind. Incredible athlete and scorer. Never made his team any better.

 

[Kdo5]

Yeah I noticed Hauser’s +- isn’t doing great, but let’s remember he’s almost never in the game with the power lineup like Brown.

I like the KP-JB screen game. Seems like Mazulla is pairing Tatum and Holiday (playmakers) and then KP-JB (pick n roll) with the rotations. It’s a good start.

Yes, Brown’s +/- should be inflated by virtue of three all-stars and White (who plays as all-star level.). I don’t really know what stat to cite for you. Defensive efficiency, true field goal percentage, plus-minus, low assists, low rebounds, middling PER, win/loss record better without him. If you want to focus only on volume scoring and volume shooting, and ultimately points, sure, Brown is golden.

Disagree with your last statement unless you add “for him” to call it a “great game” and “very good game.”

Being an elite scorer is pretty damn important in this league. When the only other guys who can consistently put up 20+ points are JT and an injury prone big, he’s a pretty major piece.

The Celtics are not winning a championship without Jaylen Brown. It’s funny how fickle people are. In the Hawks series last season the large portion of Celtics fandom were saying Jaylen Brown was the true #1 on the team and not Tatum. Now Jaylen is considered not a beneficial player. Smh

It’s pretty clear that it doesn’t matter what Jaylen Brown does moving forward. You’re dug in and will say “nuh uh” regardless of any great games he has.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Being an elite scorer is pretty damn important in this league.

Jaylen Brown isn’t an elite scorer. He broke the top 20 in 2021 and 2022. He finished 9th last season, his career high. He’s currently 24th.

When the only other guys who can consistently put up 20+ points are JT and an injury prone big, he’s a pretty major piece.

Wow…that’s a really bad take. Porzingis, Holiday, and White could easily average over 20 ppg if they jacked up 20+ shots and played like Brown.

The Celtics are not winning a championship without Jaylen Brown.

Well they haven’t won one with him.

It’s funny how fickle people are.

Speak for yourself. I’m not fickle.

In the Hawks series last season the large portion of Celtics fandom were saying Jaylen Brown was the true #1 on the team and not Tatum. Now Jaylen is considered not a beneficial player. Smh

They’re stupid. Anyone who ever thought Brown is better than Tatum is a complete moron. They’re not in the same stratosphere. Tatum is a top 5 player. Brown is a high volume dime a dozen player.

It’s pretty clear that it doesn’t matter what Jaylen Brown does moving forward. You’re dug in and will say “nuh uh” regardless of any great games he has.

Let me know when he has a great game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dominique Wilkins comes to mind. Incredible athlete and scorer. Never made his team any better.

Sure he did.

 

[jimnance]

Jaylen Brown isn’t an elite scorer. He broke the top 20 in 2021 and 2022. He finished 9th last season, his career high. He’s currently 24th.

Wow…that’s a really bad take. Porzingis, Holiday, and White could easily average over 20 ppg if they jacked up 20+ shots and played like Brown.

Well they haven’t won one with him.

Speak for yourself. I’m not fickle.

They’re stupid. Anyone who ever thought Brown is better than Tatum is a complete moron. They’re not in the same stratosphere. Tatum is a top 5 player. Brown is a high volume dime a dozen player.

Let me know when he has a great game.

You have no objectivity.
Your starting to look foolish.
Brown played a great game vs. Brooklyn.
He was the best Celtic on the floor which is saying a lot.
He played a very good game vs. Toronto.
He wasn't just leading scorer both games, which oh by the way,were WINS.
He also had the best FG Pct in both games among all the starters or very close to it.
Yes, for the entire year to now,he's probably been the 5th best starter.
But last 2 games? No freaking way.
I can't take you seriously anymore.
You're obsessed with your hate.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You have no objectivity.
Your starting to look foolish.

You have no objectivity either. You (and others) sound like Nomar fans from the early 2000s as you can’t accept that efficiency is a real thing.

Brown played a great game vs. Brooklyn.
He was the best Celtic on the floor which is saying a lot.

Lol. Tatum’s +/- was 22 points better. Ridiculous.

He played a very good game vs. Toronto.
He wasn't just leading scorer both games, which oh by the way,were WINS.
He also had the best FG Pct in both games among all the starters or very close to it.
Yes, for the entire year to now,he's probably been the 5th best starter.
But last 2 games? No freaking way.
I can't take you seriously anymore.
You're obsessed with your hate.

I thought you knew so much about basketball. It seems you’re only able to assess a player in terms of shooting and scoring points. I might as well listen to a talking head who makes an opinion in 12 seconds after scanning the box score. Defense? Passing? Rebounds? Turnovers? Tempo? Shot difficulty? Free throws? Yep just ignore he was, despite a solid scorer the last two games, by far their worst starter by +/- and ignore the predictable runs they go on with him out. They win the game when he’s on the bench, and if he’s in there without overwhelming talent, they relinquish big chunks of their lead.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]