Can we stop with this "Choking" nonsense?

[Ootball]

Tom Brady will likely go down as the greatest QB of all time, especially if he can have 1-2 more seasons like this one.

That doesn't make Manning a "choke artist." Agassi is still one of the best tennis players in recent history, even though he lost 4-5 finals to Pete Sampras.

Anyone who calls his performance yesterday - 400+ yards, 3 TD's and 2 INT's that bounced off his receivers - a "choke," is just desperate, and sad. Brady basically fumbled against Oakland (I know, I know - the rule saved him, just as he planned it), threw a game-ending INT against San Diego last year, which San Diego was nice enough to give back to New England, and threw a game-ending pick against Indy last year.

I would never call Brady a "choker" as a result. The author of this thread is quite correct. A choke is giving the game away on one or a series of mental errors that show you can't rise to the moment; not being unable to pull off a game-winning drive in a game like yesterday's, against a great D.

And I love how people call last year a "fluke," as though marginalizing the accomplishment of coming back from 21-3 with one of the biggest monkeys in sports history on his back proved nothing.

 

[Eugene Chung]

i suppose it's mannings fault that the ball bounced off of clarks hands to end the game? or the two INT that bounced off his WR hands first, we wouldn't blame Brady for that misfortane so why Manning?

No, it was his fault that he overthrew a well-covered receiver. If that pass was more on target, it would have been deflected or picked. It was a forced pass in a desperate situation. As for the first INT, he overthrew his receiver. Wayne [I believe it was him] was wide open and Manning missed him. Wayne made an ok play to tip it. Unfortunately for the Colts, it went right to Cromartie who made a great one-handed catch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xBy4487yEnY

The 2nd INT was the RBs fault, but it wasn't exactly a great pass. It was another high ball from Manning.

 

[Wildo7]

Wildo, with the Colts weapons, home field advantage, referie advantage, skill player (big) advantage, Manning was EXPECTED to lead his team to victory. ESPECIALLY after Rivers & LT were injured. The Pats put up 38 on this Chargers team and all the Colts could muster was 24?

The QB is the single most important position in sports. The fact that Manning failed to lead a HUGELY talented team to victory has me leaning heavily toward choke or failure.

You can't compare his performance to Brady's last year as the Patriots were the LESS talented team pulling for the upset. When you make a list of all the factors the Colts and Manning had on their side....OOPS is all that comes to mind.

The Chargers are also hugely talented, and have matched up consistently well with the Colts. The team as a whole performed poorly. Manning was one of the better performers on his team yesterday. His defense was weak, his WRs made dropped, Addai couldn't run the ball.

Again, I never said that Manning performed up to expectations or perhaps as well as he could have, or even that part of the blame for the loss isn't on him. I said he didn't "choke."

 

[RayClay]

It's getting really silly how the homers on this site seem to have a huge misunderstanding of what it means to "choke" in a sports context. To "choke" means that when you have the game in hand you somehow meltdown and throw it all away. The 2004 Yankees "choked," Manning today did not "choke" nor did Brady "choke" in last year's AFCCG. Of course when your desperately trying to complete a miraculous drive down the field with under 2 minutes left, 95% time it's going to end in an interception. You aren't expected to pull off such a drive, which is what makes them special when they do happen, so they are not choke-jobs when they don't

Agree completely. Playing poorly or losing cause someone plays well is not choking.

I had to work during the Colts game, so I don't know if that applies.

 

[Wildo7]

David Garrard "choked." Jeff Garcia "choked." Matt Hasselbeck "choked."

They all played decent games, but their teams came up short. Everything you are saying here is equally applicable to these QBs, except their name isn't Peyton Manning.

 

[Ootball]

I can almost guarantee that few who play the game would call Manning a "choker." The sport & winning is about much more than 1 guy, and I don't think any team in a playoff game could ask much more of their QB than 400 yards & 3 TD's.

It's only guys who drink cheap beer & have nothing but American cheese in the fridge who go off on this whole "choking" tangent with Manning. I suppose he's paying for the fact that he has kept his team so successful over the years & had so many playoff chances (and this is something that fans of pretty much any other team save the Pats would be ecstatic about), but, of course, he is the current Superbowl MVP.

A "choke" game is more along the lines of 180 yards, no TD's & 3 picks, all his fault. You guys don't know what you're talking about.

 

[weswelker#83]

You guys don't know what you're talking about.

I can't talk right now.....

 

[Hardboiled]

I wouldn't call Sunday's game a choke job. There is so much hate for Payton here anything about him becomes clouded. Maybe people feel better writing "choker" over and over. And the "Manning face" isn't losing composure. The "Danny Ainge face" wasn't losing composure.

If you want to hate, hate this week's quarterback.

 

[PatriotsReign]

The Chargers are also hugely talented, and have matched up consistently well with the Colts. The team as a whole performed poorly. Manning was one of the better performers on his team yesterday. His defense was weak, his WRs made dropped, Addai couldn't run the ball.

Again, I never said that Manning performed up to expectations or perhaps as well as he could have, or even that part of the blame for the loss isn't on him. I said he didn't "choke."

You made me thing of an interesting point....stats! Stats mean zilch as far as measuring a QB's play. Remember 2001 when Brady would throw for 186 yard on 14-20 completions? Not impressive but I was always impressed by how confident he looked on the field and how much of a leader he was. I think fans have gotten an even better glimpse of his calmness & confidence this year as he has lead several 4th qtr come-backs.

That is what Manning was missing yesterday. That intangeable "leadership" on the field and on the bench. The question is, does Manning INSPIRE confidence or are his players merely confident in him...

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFFERENCE

 

[FrontSeven]

Manning choked. That's just the way it is. The one who doesn't seem to understand what "choke" means is you.

Oh really?

Did Brady choke against the Broncos?

Did Brady choke against the Colts last year?

Seems to me that he threw game-ending picks in those games, didn't he?

Only a burger flipper would refer to one of the finest QBs to ever play the game as a choker.

 

[FrontSeven]

I can't talk right now.....

Your humor is motivated by small **** syndrome. It's as funny as a broken arm.

What do you do for a living? You are no professional. You show obvious signs of being a no-lifer who is mad at the world. Maybe you deal black jack to drunks at night? Flip burgers for America's elite diners by day?

If I was Wes Welker I'd sue you for damages.

 

[PatriotsReign]

David Garrard "choked." Jeff Garcia "choked." Matt Hasselbeck "choked."

They all played decent games, but their teams came up short. Everything you are saying here is equally applicable to these QBs, except their name isn't Peyton Manning.

And therein lies the point! Their names are not Peyton Manning. More is expected of those who are living legends. For this era, Manning & Brady are the these legends.

I contend that Manning is a very confident quarterback in whom his players have the utmost confidence. I believe Brady is at a slightly higher level in that he inspires others to be confident. But not only in him, but in themselves and the team as a whole.

I truly believe this is the difference. Of course he's human. But every now & then we get to witness an athlete that goes beyond talent. Some call it magic or whatever, but I believe it is leadership. Throughout history, we've seen great leaders on the battlefields who have lead men to accomplish what seems impossible.

I'm not comparing Brady to these great men, but I do believe if he were on a battlefield, he would be a leader. He does not know fear.

 

[Wildo7]

And therein lies the point! Their names are not Peyton Manning. More is expected of those who are living legends. For this era, Manning & Brady are the these legends.

I contend that Manning is a very confident quarterback in whom his players have the utmost confidence. I believe Brady is at a slightly higher level in that he inspires others to be confident. But not only in him, but in themselves and the team as a whole.

I truly believe this is the difference. Of course he's human. But every now & then we get to witness an athlete that goes beyond talent. Some call it magic or whatever, but I believe it is leadership. Throughout history, we've seen great leaders on the battlefields who have lead men to accomplish what seems impossible.

I'm not comparing Brady to these great men, but I do believe if he were on a battlefield, he would be a leader. He does not know fear.

So if Brady is GOAT (which we all know to be the case) anything that doesn't measure up to him is a "choker?"

 

[Ootball]

And therein lies the point! Their names are not Peyton Manning. More is expected of those who are living legends. For this era, Manning & Brady are the these legends.

I contend that Manning is a very confident quarterback in whom his players have the utmost confidence. I believe Brady is at a slightly higher level in that he inspires others to be confident. But not only in him, but in themselves and the team as a whole.

I truly believe this is the difference. Of course he's human. But every now & then we get to witness an athlete that goes beyond talent. Some call it magic or whatever, but I believe it is leadership. Throughout history, we've seen great leaders on the battlefields who have lead men to accomplish what seems impossible.

I'm not comparing Brady to these great men, but I do believe if he were on a battlefield, he would be a leader. He does not know fear.

I agree with that. There is a quality Brady has which I actually have not seen in sports at all, except for possibly in Michael Jordan. Even Montana's greatness came from more of a calm & even a little sense of humor.

Brady is like a cyborg out there; he has the "right" emotions, in that he has the determination to win, and relishes the big moments, but none of the "bad" emotions, like fear or nervousness of any kind.

I think Peyton is confident, and - to be fair - has had some worse breaks than Brady over the years, but the fact that he isn't a cyborg like Brady doesn't all of a sudden mean he's a choker. He's Agassi, but not Buckner (sp?)

 

[weswelker#83]

Your humor is motivated by small **** syndrome. It's as funny as a broken arm.

What do you do for a living? You are no professional. You show obvious signs of being a no-lifer who is mad at the world. Maybe you deal black jack to drunks at night? Flip burgers for America's elite diners by day?

If I was Wes Welker I'd sue you for damages.

I bet you are a donkey from indiana ?

 

[PatriotsReign]

So if Brady is GOAT (which we all know to be the case) anything that doesn't measure up to him is a "choker?"

Either you didn't read my post or you're making assumptions Wildo. Put it this way. If the Patriots were playing the Chargers under the identicle circumstances, do you think it would have been possible for the Patiots to lose that game?

I don't think it would happen in a hundred games.

But I'll compromise and say that it was disappointing that Manning could not find a way to lead his team to victory. I mean 24 points Wildo?

Do you agree or not agree with my contention that some QB's have teams that are confident in them and a few great ones actually INSPIRE confidence? Did you read my comparison to military leaders? Would you want Manning leading you in battle or Brady?...think about it

 

[Wildo7]

Either you didn't read my post or you're making assumptions Wildo. Put it this way. If the Patriots were playing the Chargers under the identicle circumstances, do you think it would have been possible for the Patiots to lose that game?

I don't think it would happen in a hundred games.

But I'll compromise and say that it was disappointing that Manning could not find a way to lead his team to victory. I mean 24 points Wildo?

Do you agree or not agree with my contention that some QB's have teams that are confident in them and a few great ones actually INSPIRE confidence? Did you read my comparison to military leaders? Would you want Manning leading you in battle or Brady?...think about it

NO! Brady is better. I've said that all along. Brady is absolute magic, and he's done things I've never seen before (Ootball summed it up well, he's a stone cold killer). Peyton is great, just not Tom Brady. That doesn't mean he's a choker. Manning failed in a situation yesterday that pretty much every great QB has failed in in the past, except maybe Brady.

So my point is that if you could choose Muhammed Ali or Joe Frazier, you'd choose Muhammed Ali in a heartbeat (I hope), but because Frazier didn't measure up to Ali, doesn't mean he was a choke artist.

As a Pats fan, I kind of think it diminishes Brady to say that Manning is a choker (has he choked in the past, yes), but If Manning is a great QB (instead of a choker) and Brady outperforms him, then how does that reflect on Brady?

 

[PonyExpress]

When a supposed all-time Qb has 4 goal to gos to win a game, and can't get it done; then has another 4 downs with the season on the line, and gets 5 total yards- It is a monumental choke. Anyone saying otherwise is biased in favor of Manning. Manning last season had the lowest postseason passer rating of any QB ever to win the SB since the rule changes in 1977, and also had the lowest SB passer rating of any Qb ever to win SB MVP. His playoff resume is an abomination other than 1 half vs a depleted Pat team last season. Every time his team has had a 1st rd bye and a home playoff game, he has failed to lead his team to a win. Each was a devastating ridiculous defeat against an inferior opponent. That's the defintiion of playoff choking.

 

[Eugene Chung]

Look, I don't think Manning "choked" per se. Because his team wasn't up big, I think it was more like "wilting under pressure." That being said, Manning went 18 for 22 in the 1st half for 203 yards, 1 TD, and 1 pick (which was his final pass of the half). In the 2nd half, he was 15 of 26 for 199 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 pick. 81% completion percentage in the 1st - 58% in the 2nd. I know it's tough to replicate his 1st half stats, but he didn't burn the RCA Dome down with his performance in the 2nd. I think it's pretty telling that on his final two drives, he went 2 for 10. He needed a touchdown, had favorable field position, and failed to deliver.

 

[weswelker#83]

When a supposed all-time Qb has 4 goal to gos to win a game, and can't get it done; then has another 4 downs with the season on the line, and gets 5 total yards- It is a monumental choke. Anyone saying otherwise is biased in favor of Manning. Manning last season had the lowest postseason passer rating of any QB ever to win the SB since the rule changes in 1977, and also had the lowest SB passer rating of any Qb ever to win SB MVP. His playoff resume is an abomination other than 1 half vs a depleted Pat team last season. Every time his team has had a 1st rd bye and a home playoff game, he has failed to lead his team to a win. Each was a devastating ridiculous defeat against an inferior opponent. That's the defintiion of playoff choking.

Agreed.
Funny ,in his last commercial with gatorade , the slogan says at the end:

Every game needs a hero . Is it in you ?

I guess ,not .