Cam is not the Answer

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lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
The thing with Cam is that he was a huge part responsible for some losses we had but he never really was, except for the first game, the reason we won.
He was also the reason we nearly won the Seattle game that half this board likes to use as evidence of bring a good team. He also played well the first 3 weeks until Covid
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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But then again this might be the wrong thread for objectivity.
Evan isn't necessarily wrong in his analysis but this isn't anything new or breaking news. Cam can work vert routes (yankee, dagger, deep over) if things play out nicely but again we've known this and seen him doing this his entire career. Also most of those clips were to wide open WRs, Cam could see things play out. Not exactly the Zapruder film to show Cam has turned some corner.

It must suck when the facts don't agree with your cognitive biases or feelings. Can't wait for your meltdown when Cam gets an extension this offseason.
This is a 3-4 week sample size.

Evans piece reads like many of my post over the last 2 years. The effect of watching Brady for 2 decades, Winning in different ways that most aren't accustomed to, The adjust most fans would have to make. I've been posting much of the same thoughts. So I agree there. I was also very happy we landed Cam and got behind the team from day 1. I was actually laughing at people who thought they'd be a competition between Cam, Stid & Hoyer. So again there's 0 bias here.

The only problem I have is pretending Cam turned on some switch or again turned some proverbial corner. This is the same guy we've seen for decade. At the same time let's not pretend or ignore the fact that he's been terrible under pressure. Probably bottom 5 in the league. Has trouble with setting protection and his awareness has been poor too often. Tied for most batted passes. His footwork is poor and leads to a variety of other problems. He struggles going through progressions against certain defenses. Struggles in short/intermediate areas, certain areas of field.

Some of that those flaws you can work with. Ideally you'd like a 10 year vet to be done with some of that stuff but it is what it is. Lets just call it the way it is though. It's not a clear-cut & obvious case of "hey this guy is playing great". I'm not opposed to bringing Cam back under the right circumstance either. I'm just honest about the overall picture and can understand if some fans want to move on.
 

luuked

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I'm not opposed to bringing Cam back under the right circumstance either. I'm just honest about the overall picture and can understand if some fans want to move on.

I don't think anyone rational expects him to be more than a transitional QB that can still put us into a position to compete while the search for the next starter continues. Of course it all comes down to the question whether the Pats and Cam will find common ground on the value of the extension. But if they can, then he is an absolutely fine option to run the team through this transition.

He has his own specific strengths and weaknesses as every other QB but unlike most due to difficult circumstances this year had to learn most about the offense on the fly.

I disagree that there are not still 1-2 corners for him to turn. Obviously he will never run the offense as efficiently as Brady did but if that is anyone's expectation they might as well turn the tv off because they are dumbasses. At the same time if he gets to spend an entire offseason with input from McDaniels and BB I am pretty positive about him improving in multiple areas e.g. presnap reads, pressure and pocket movement. It won't be revolutionary but even a 10-20% improvement would go a long way.

Either way, we will know one way or the other what people on the inside think in March.
 

luuked

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Facts or esoteric cherry picked stats? What do your eyes tell you- is this an elite (top 5) offense? Please

None of this is cherry picked and it doesn't say anything about us being an elite offense.

I suggest instead of writing snarky remarks -- that just expose another case of Dunning-Kruger -- you just open your browser and try to understand what EPA means and what its big picture implications are.
 

KontradictioN

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Facts or esoteric cherry picked stats? What do your eyes tell you- is this an elite (top 5) offense? Please
The defenses played:

19th
30th
3rd**
28th

** = 17 attempts and a heavy emphasis on the ground game due to weather conditions and said defense missing their starting DTs.

Lazar is trying to be positive, but every statistic needs some context. One can say everything about anything they want by only looking at a small sample size.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
I don't think anyone rational expects him to be more than a transitional QB that can still put us into a position to compete while the search for the next starter continues. Of course it all comes down to the question whether the Pats and Cam will find common ground on the value of the extension. But if they can, then he is an absolutely fine option to run the team through this transition.

He has his own specific strengths and weaknesses as every other QB but unlike most due to difficult circumstances this year had to learn most about the offense on the fly.

I disagree that there are not still 1-2 corners for him to turn. Obviously he will never run the offense as efficiently as Brady did but if that is anyone's expectation they might as well turn the tv off because they are dumbasses. At the same time if he gets to spend an entire offseason with input from McDaniels and BB I am pretty positive about him improving in multiple areas e.g. presnap reads, pressure and pocket movement. It won't be revolutionary but even a 10-20% improvement would go a long way.

Either way, we will know one way or the other what people on the inside think in March.
I just wanted to see an offense designed specifically for Cam and to use his legs as a strength along with the backs we have. I don't want to see Brady's offense anymore - the guy that did that best is gone.
 

luuked

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I just wanted to see an offense designed specifically for Cam and to use his legs as a strength along with the backs we have. I don't want to see Brady's offense anymore - the guy that did that best is gone.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about because you have not been seeing a Brady offense all year. Route concepts in the pass game will remain the same but you can count the number of quick passes into the MOF -- which is what was Brady's bread and butter -- most probably on two hands. They have Cam run a couple times a game to keep the defense honest, there are option plays and even bootlegs. The entire redzone offense has been about leveraging Cam.

But maybe you can be more explanatory what you mean by "Brady offense".
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about because you have not been seeing a Brady offense all year. Route concepts in the pass game will remain the same but you can count the number of quick passes into the MOF -- which is what was Brady's bread and butter -- most probably on two hands.

But maybe you can be more explanatory what you mean by that.
I expected an offense more like the Ravens last year. Designed runs, RPO, stuff like that. Not seeing much of that this year. At least early on - using Edelman a lot, plays that depended on precision and timing like Brady's offense was.
 

Triumph

Hall of Fame Poster
I just wanted to see an offense designed specifically for Cam and to use his legs as a strength along with the backs we have. I don't want to see Brady's offense anymore - the guy that did that best is gone.
Houston forced NE to become 1 dimensional when they shut down the run and forced Cant Newton to throw. Crennel knew exactly what to do because BB taught him well. 3 straight running plays and punt.

This experiment blew up in the lab.
 

luuked

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I expected an offense more like the Ravens last year. Designed runs, RPO, stuff like that. Not seeing much of that this year. At least early on - using Edelman a lot, plays that depended on precision and timing like Brady's offense was.

They have integrated elements of that into the offense, just didn't make it a focal point of it but stayed versatile. But then again Cam is still a better thrower of the ball than LJ so there is no need to hide his passing game that much.

But why would they go away from a passing attack that works fine. Outside of the two COVID aftermath games the offense has not been a problem for this team. The main reason we are in this hole has little to do with Cam and a lot to do with regression on defense.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
idk if anyone ever thought cam was the answer. but there is evidence of a dearth of teams who have gone with established starters while they wait on talented backups to develop.

look at Alex Smith on both the 49ers and Chiefs. He held down the fort for both teams keeping them competitive until Mahomes and Kapernick took over.

Now, personally I think Jimmy G. is bills #1 guy for this job if the 49ers decide to part ways. But if not, I wouldnt mind Cam newton back on a bridge sort of deal.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Thinking back on it, after seeing the back and forth that followed with another poster, I'm glad I didn't respond to him.
Yeah generally anytime someone claims “you wouldn’t say that to me in person” I automatically assume they’re not working with a full deck.
 

1960Pats

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Yeah generally anytime someone claims “you wouldn’t say that to me in person” I automatically assume they’re not working with a full deck.
He was basically calling me a liar, but I didn't care to spend the time finding the posts from years ago that proved my point. Instead I just let him believe it or not.
 

FCB02062

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Newton will continue to produce mediocre results until there is a viable TE option. If you tell me next year the Patriots will have a good TE, not talking about a Gronkowski or Kelce, but someone who is at least a fukcing threat on offense. Bill the GM and Coach needs to step out of 1991 and realize not every TE can or will block like Mark Bavaro.
 

Calhoun44

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My uneducated eyes tell me that Cam is not the answer. But, my mind is telling me that he must doing most things well enough to remain as the QB. His salary isn't a problem if they wanted to cut him and BB usually has no problem cutting bait if he doesn't see enough to stay with someone. I think the Sea and Buf games that the Patriots almost pulled out, would not have been tight at the end with some amazing plays by Cam. Unfortunately he also had a hand in the biggest negative plays of those games that overshadowed his solid/great play down the stretch. Anyway, I'm willing to trust what BB and McD see more than my "fan" eyes. I love his work ethic, leadership and his lack of ego (which surprised me, from afar he always seemed like a me first player). I'm hoping for a strong finish to the season and the team continues to improve so that, if nothing else, they can play spoiler for teams fighting for home field position and trying to make the playoffs. But if things click a playoff appearance would be a huge success for this "flawed" team.......Go Pats!!!
 

amfootball

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Newton will continue to produce mediocre results until there is a viable TE option. If you tell me next year the Patriots will have a good TE, not talking about a Gronkowski or Kelce, but someone who is at least a fukcing threat on offense. Bill the GM and Coach needs to step out of 1991 and realize not every TE can or will block like Mark Bavaro.
A TE is not going to help him with poor mechanics, inability to see a blitz, or dirt ball throws.
 
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