Browns trade Shelton to Patriots

[SHOWTIME15]

Do we have a need for dontari poe now?

 

[holyredeemer]

Do we have a need for dontari poe now?

Collecting more defensive line talent isn’t a bad thing, but not at the price he would be asking. I wouldn’t be surprised if we drafted another big body if the talent was there, but with Valentine coming back and hopefully improving, I think we’ll have a good rotation on the interior.

 

[Tony2046]

Do we have a need for dontari poe now?

No not at all. VV and Shelton fill that need.

It's an amazing signing. They needed a NT. Options were Poe at 8-10 million or Tim Settle via the draft but who also bombed at the combine. With Shelton they get a former first round pick at roughly 2 million. He's not Wilfork but better than Branch.

We're good to go at NT now.

 

[jimnance]

No not at all. VV and Shelton fill that need.

It's an amazing signing. They needed a NT. Options were Poe at 8-10 million or Tim Settle via the draft but who also bombed at the combine. With Shelton they get a former first round pick at roughly 2 million. He's not Wilfork but better than Branch.

We're good to go at NT now.

I always feel good when the trenches are taken care of. Now we need to sign Solder.

 

[supafly]

Collecting more defensive line talent isn’t a bad thing, but not at the price he would be asking. I wouldn’t be surprised if we drafted another big body if the talent was there, but with Valentine coming back and hopefully improving, I think we’ll have a good rotation on the interior.

I bet they’ll grab another couple/few guys via the draft + UDFA + low tier free agency and see if anyone rises to the challenge. Not expecting any big signings, myself.

In the meantime, having Valentine, Brown, Guy, Wise, Shelton, and Butler as the main run stuffers should definitely be better than last year, when you add in guys like Flowers, Rivers, etc. I’m more concerned with LB than I am the DL, although it would always be nice to hit on a good pick.

 

[Pape]

Dorsett was behind Cooks. Didn't get the opportunities (snap count, targets) Gabriel did.

Gabriel was often Atlanta's #2 or #3 option, with Julio Jones taking double-coverage all over the field on every play. Look at their 2016 seasons...they're not far apart at all. And Matt Ryan's isn't chopped liver, you know?

Grass is greener, until it's not. The Pats would be insane to throw any money at Gabriel right now.

The color of grass has nothing to do with it. Taylor Gabriel has been much more consistent than Phillip Dorsett.

You want to cherry pick seasons? Go look at Gabriel's 2016 season as well. Again, no comparison.

You want to keep Dorsett because he' cheap, that's fine. You want to spend a little extra on a better 3rd? I'm down with that too.

 

[supafly]

The color of grass has nothing to do with it. Taylor Gabriel has been much more consistent than Phillip Dorsett.

You want to cherry pick seasons? Go look at Gabriel's 2016 season as well. Again, no comparison.

You want to keep Dorsett because he' cheap, that's fine. You want to spend a little extra on a better 3rd? I'm down with that too.

I’d be good with Gabriel. I think he has some room to grow. Not sure about his price, though.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Highly doubtful, since the Jags claimed him off waivers from the Texans last September.

Why are folks even interested in WRs for the Pats at the moment?

Because it's a skill position. I admit to not being brilliant about any of this, but I know enough to know that the O and D lines is where you win or lose.

 

[Tony2046]

I’d be good with Gabriel. I think he has some room to grow. Not sure about his price, though.

They're pretty much against re signing him here in Atlanta. More to do with the cap space than him as a receiver. Although they do mention that without Shanahan scheming plays up to get him open he pretty much can't beat his coverage quick enough on his own especially against press coverage. They predict he'll end up a 49er to reunite with Shanahan. Personally I have no idea. I haven't watched him at all.

 

[HawaiianPatsfan]

Heres are very detailed analytical breakdown of Shelton in just about every way and forum. His athleticism coming out of College, and his Production from a analytical standpoint, in comparison to what he is asked to do from a role standpoint. He speaks to how he compares to players like Damon Harrison and other players like Star Lotulelei etc etc. This video was a breakdown of his first two seasons in CLE, where he was used more as a traditional NT, so you don't have to worry about his stats and misuse in the 4-3 this past season.

I think all of you will be very pleased and optimistic about the player we just received. This video has no level of favoritism, and comes from a completely neutral analyst.
I was optimistic before watching this, but this gives me lots of confidence BB can get him to become a top 3 NT in the league.

TRUST ME, if you're in doubt of Shelton and this trade, and this doesn't ease you at least a little, you're just a negative Nancy.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: earlier post about the “miked up” video... have seen a couple now of him singlehandedly commanding inside run lanes, and a couple of tackles for losses. I dunno how much that represents his production; one or two such plays can be cherry picked, which is the general problem with highlight vids. But it puts my mind at ease re: his role. I’m not sure whether he’ll be anything in terms of inside pressure, we’ll see. That’s always been the trade off when we’re in the 3-4, you might get inside pressure, but you’re more controlling than attacking. Assuming that’s the idea, it’s a good investment to have the traditional 3-4 look available.

 

[borisman]

I didn't read through all of the posts in this thread but if his combine results/profile, in case anyone was interested, were not posted, see below.

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Danny Shelton

 

[sean10mm]

Anything that adds beef to the Pats sorry-ass front 7 counts as a win.

 

[Tony2046]

Re: earlier post about the “miked up” video... have seen a couple now of him singlehandedly commanding inside run lanes, and a couple of tackles for losses. I dunno how much that represents his production; one or two such plays can be cherry picked, which is the general problem with highlight vids. But it puts my mind at ease re: his role. I’m not sure whether he’ll be anything in terms of inside pressure, we’ll see. That’s always been the trade off when we’re in the 3-4, you might get inside pressure, but you’re more controlling than attacking. Assuming that’s the idea, it’s a good investment to have the traditional 3-4 look available.

Controlling the LOS in a 3-4 is a must. The DL's and the LB's work in a tandem to create the pressure or stop the run. If the NT is getting pushed out of position your LB's and DT's are dealing with picking up the slack which includes dealing with offensive linemen getting to the second level. Basically if your NT is getting pushed around everyone else in the front 7 is picking up the slack. Shelton will solve that problem.

 

[patfanken]

Th

@patfanken

I wonder if part of him getting too high has something to do with how he's watching his gaps. Of the film I've watched he was always looking to see what was going on pre snap and continued looking for the ball post snap. So maybe standing too tall is a symptom of how he's looking for the ball.

I've also seen when he sees where the ball is going he can quickly shed his blocker by either going low or with an arm whip etc...

My gut feeling is that his tendency to go high so he can look for the ball is a product of his vast physical skills. He's never needed to stay low to maintain his basic position, so he hasn't. But the difference between good players and great ones is that the great ones marry their prodigious physical qualities to quality technique work.

Think about it this way. If Tom Brady had been a 340 lb NT, he'd STILL be w0rking tirelessly on his techniques to improve his game, especially as he aged. Same here. According to PFF Shelton is a good run stopping NT as is. However, he hasn't been the impact player the Browns hoped for when they picked him at #12, even though he possessed the physical skills to become one. Like I said, good, but not great.

I'd like to think that if he decided he wanted to be more than what he is now and surrendered himself to playing with great technique he could become a cornerstone piece of the DL and more than just a 2 down run stopper.

That being said, if all he ends up being is a quality 2 down run stopper, then this trade is totally justified.

 

[libra957]

Great move. No need to draft in the top 20 when you can get former 1st round talent like that from the browns.

 

[fightingirish595]

Get me dashawn hand

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Controlling the LOS in a 3-4 is a must. The DL's and the LB's work in a tandem to create the pressure or stop the run. If the NT is getting pushed out of position your LB's and DT's are dealing with picking up the slack which includes dealing with offensive linemen getting to the second level. Basically if your NT is getting pushed around everyone else in the front 7 is picking up the slack. Shelton will solve that problem.

Especially in the days of the elephant position, which I hear much less about since McGinnest saved his brain and went to the TV set, I used to hear a lot about how the DL frees up the LBs to make plays... that's sort of the more aggressive description of what you just talked about. That said, it's a good "make them beat you" scheme, more than one that's ever been built to beat down other teams... that's one box the Pats have never checked in the BB era: We've never been that defense that smothers or mows down every opponent.

One day, when TFB hangs em up, you'd hope that BB wants to prove he can do it the other way too. But if you think about it those stellar defenses seem to supernova for a season, then live on as embers for a few more... they don't turn into 15+ year dynasties.

Still, just once, wouldn't you just love to have a nasty-azz buzzsaw defense, rather than one built to contain the damage well enough for the offense to win? Wouldn't you love to have a defense for the ages, just for a year or two or three some day in the future? (Rather than talk about having a top 5 scoring defense?)

Just pipedreamin' here.

 

[Tony2046]

Especially in the days of the elephant position, which I hear much less about since McGinnest saved his brain and went to the TV set, I used to hear a lot about how the DL frees up the LBs to make plays... that's sort of the more aggressive description of what you just talked about. That said, it's a good "make them beat you" scheme, more than one that's ever been built to beat down other teams... that's one box the Pats have never checked in the BB era: We've never been that defense that smothers or mows down every opponent.

One day, when TFB hangs em up, you'd hope that BB wants to prove he can do it the other way too. But if you think about it those stellar defenses seem to supernova for a season, then live on as embers for a few more... they don't turn into 15+ year dynasties.

Still, just once, wouldn't you just love to have a nasty-azz buzzsaw defense, rather than one built to contain the damage well enough for the offense to win? Wouldn't you love to have a defense for the ages, just for a year or two or three some day in the future? (Rather than talk about having a top 5 scoring defense?)

Just pipedreamin' here.

Sure it would be nice but to get that kind of defense you would need to sit at the bottom of the barrel for a couple of seasons to get high enough draft picks to get that kind of talent onto your roster and fit under the cap.

One thing I didn't mention in the previous post was that I think ( not know) that a 3-4 defense is better suited for today's high flying, RPO'ing, Scat backing NFL. Three big bodies to plug up the middle and 4 LB's to either plug the running lanes or cover the TE's/RB's etc... Whereas a 4-3 is typically 4 smaller DT's and 3 LB's. I think it's a slower defensive scheme in the front 7.

3-4 is more flexible as well. You need an edge rusher (4-3)? Hightower can do that for ya. You need a LB to cover the TE (3-4)? Hightower is fast enough to do that too. Get some more speed at LB and this defense gets a lot more dangerous.

Just my opinion but I think the addition of Sheldon will free up the LB/DE's, the LB's and the DT's to focus on their job which means I expect to see the QB pressure numbers to increase a lot next season. I expect to see more sacks, more interceptions, lower opposing QBR's etc... and I expect to see other teams having a tougher time running the ball. That's why I'm pumped about the addition of Sheldon. Hell, we might even see McCourty play Safety again. hahaha

Edit: I meant to mention that you eluded to the need to sit at the bottom of the barrel to get that kind of defense. I think we all share your dream of somehow getting that without the 1-15's.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Sure it would be nice but to get that kind of defense you would need to sit at the bottom of the barrel for a couple of seasons to get high enough draft picks to get that kind of talent onto your roster and fit under the cap.

One thing I didn't mention in the previous post was that I think ( not know) that a 3-4 defense is better suited for today's high flying, RPO'ing, Scat backing NFL. Three big bodies to plug up the middle and 4 LB's to either plug the running lanes or cover the TE's/RB's etc... Whereas a 4-3 is typically 4 smaller DT's and 3 LB's. I think it's a slower defensive scheme in the front 7.

3-4 is more flexible as well. You need an edge rusher (4-3)? Hightower can do that for ya. You need a LB to cover the TE (3-4)? Hightower is fast enough to do that too. Get some more speed at LB and this defense gets a lot more dangerous.

Just my opinion but I think the addition of Sheldon will free up the LB/DE's, the LB's and the DT's to focus on their job which means I expect to see the QB pressure numbers to increase a lot next season. I expect to see more sacks, more interceptions, lower opposing QBR's etc... and I expect to see other teams having a tougher time running the ball. That's why I'm pumped about the addition of Sheldon. Hell, we might even see McCourty play Safety again. hahaha

Edit: I meant to mention that you eluded to the need to sit at the bottom of the barrel to get that kind of defense. I think we all share your dream of somehow getting that without the 1-15's.

Rilly, the rip-everyone-a-new-one defenses, like the 2000 Ravens (Lewis), the 85 Bears (Singletary), seem to depend on one off-every-chart talent. If you put the 2002 Bucs in the club I don't know who that figure is, but also notice the LB corps in general was vicious in both the above cases. To your point, it's been longer now since the 2000 Ravens than it was between the 2000 Ravens after the 1985 Bears... and the game changes. It might well be that the whole game has evolved - not just rules differences and coaching styles, but realizing you can't field 2 or 3 all-world athletes , with 1 all-universe athlete, in one unit of your defense. I guess you could say that compared with the "talent collection" system back then, teams are weaker now; in terms of team-building, teams - especially this one - have gotten better. The Pats killed the individual SB introduction faster than grunge killed the hair bands. I don't think it's any accident that the era of team over individual stars coincided with the era of salary cap/free agency. You need everybody's absolute best, and the coaches' absolute best, because be honest: You always have one or more weak links out there; "disguise weaknesses" became this era's "dominate whistle to whistle" (on defense). Here and there a team thinks they cracked it, but not really. (Sorry Legion of Boom, apparently you can't do it all out of the secondary).

Add to that, that the great defenses come along (came along)? Every few years, TOPS. That otherworldly Bears team, that next tier where your 2000 Ravens fit, maybe the 02 Bucs (but probably nahhhh), everything had to fall into place just right.

Maybe you do have to hit 3 or 4 home runs at good draft positions to do it, sure, that's one way to do it.

Brady's on Colbert, gotta go