Broncos/Patriots matchup

[Ring 6]

I hate stupid arguments, whether against the Patriots or anyone else. It's not that I love Tebow, it's that the anti-Tebow people are, mostly, completely prejudiced and making stupid arguments.

What are people who criticize Tebow prejudice against?

And this "accurate" crap is probably the biggest load of garbage the world has ever seen.

Wow, you never cease to top yourself.
A QBs ability to throw accurate passes is the biggest load of garbage the world has ever seen.
So, a QB who bounces a pass in front of a wide open receiver 10 yards downfield, like Tebow does all game long has nothing to do with hisn play?
Whats next the whole catching thing for a WR is a bunch of crap?

 

[Ring 6]

When he completes 46% of his passes, he just might not be an accurate QB.

When he has a wide open receiver 10 yards downfield and bounces it to him, thats how you get 46%.

 

[PatriotSeven]

Ok, I still don't know where you get this offensive efficiency from. But they were 25th in scoring, that is not putting up more points than your average team and any offense that is completely reliant upon its defense and ST's to set them up for a score is not very good. But the numbers do back that up, the Broncos defense caused 18 turnovers good enough for 29th in the league. On the other hand the highest scoring offense in the league only received 17 turnovers from its defense. Which one would you rather have?

A side note: Pittsburgh ironically enough only caused 15 turnovers tied for last in the league.

And Ben standing in the pocket throwing off his back foot is not going to be a very good passer. In fact any QB unable to follow through and plant his front foot, forcing him to throw off his back foot, is not going to be an efficient passer. That helped the Denver defense as much as anything.

But yes bottom line, Tebow made the throws he had to last night, good for him. But lets not act as if he was carving up a cover 2 zone or something. In the majority of his 10 completions, he was chucking the ball up to a very fast receiver who got a step on the CB over the middle, who was covering the receiver without a soul behind him.

Look I'm a stat guy and believe they tell part of the story. But it doesn't tell the whole story. And your offensive efficiency clearly excludes the other two phases of the game.

Because you are looking at points scored....and I'm talking about what you actually said "scoring" or "ability to score". The total number is irrelevant. 30 points or 20 points doesn't matter. Their ability to outscore their opponent, whether in a 20-19 game or 38-25 game was still top of the league. And that matters more than total points scored. That's offensive efficiency. That's execution. And sometimes less is more.

But if you don't want to give the kid credit, and believe in miracles, that's all on you. I don't believe in miracles and rarely does luck play a consistent factor. And you act like those balls were not under close coverage or didn't have to cross traffic to get there. The receivers were not the ones adjusting to them. It was Tebow placing the ball where it needed to go. It's not like he didn't do this against cover defenses earlier in the year. It's just that when you use cover they burn you with their run game. If you give them the run, why SHOULD they take the risky pass? Just to "prove" that he can make a high risk pass as good as anyone else? That's stupid. However this video shows just about every one of his passes:

Broncos vs Steelers Playoff Game full Highlights - YouTube

What I see are 21 perfectly good balls. Only 10 of them were actual receptions. Unless you agree with the idiot Irvin who thinks the first pass is a miss because Tebow can anticipate routes of a defender and knew better than throwing that first pass to his receiver's position where that defender was waiting to undercut him. That's the type of stupid throw Ben makes later in the game where he gets intercepted. I saw Ben make inaccurate passes. I didn't see Tebow do it.

Tebow doesn't usually do that. So sometimes they either end up in incompletions or NO ONE gets them. He did it when forcing the ball against the Bills pass D. But that can happen to any QB and it's part of the overall strategy of the game. It happened to Brady. Force any QB to pass to catch up with the clock running against you against preventive pass D that knows you're going to pass, and the chances of throwing a bad pass increases.

 

[PatriotSeven]

When he has a wide open receiver 10 yards downfield and bounces it to him, thats how you get 46%.

Care to back it up or are you just throwing up your opinion? Again I posted the video above. You can actually take the time and analyze his passes over and over.

 

[Deus Irae]

...What I see are 21 perfectly good balls. Only 10 of them were actual receptions....

To be fair, the pass across the middle late in the game where he bounced it was a bad pass.

 

[The-Hooded-One]

Care to back it up or are you just throwing up your opinion? Again I posted the video above. You can actually take the time and analyze his passes over and over.

What in the world are you talking about? Near the end of the game he had Thomas wide open on 3rd down and threw the ball right into his feet.

 

[Ring 6]

That's the case for most quarterbacks though, not just Tebow. The only difference is some teams can still hang after a turnover against your average offense despite a turnover, but even then, most lose.

And Tebow is very accurate.

Come on man.

A QB that can throw 10 passes a game and hit his receivers square in the stomach, hands, chest....is an accurate passer especially when you take the time to take into consideration the passes he missed...3-4 balls purposely thrown away, 2 perfectly thrown dropped passes, and one pass on 3rd and long that he placed in the middle of the field in the middle of his throwing lane, that, while far out of reach for his defender, also happened to be far out of the possibility of getting undercut for an interception(something Ben didn't do a couple of possessions before that and got picked off because of it). Just because he chooses to take a sack, throw the ball away, or be extremely conservative and makes good decisions and doesn't have the best receivers around him or a pass-oriented team...doesn't make him inaccurate. It just makes him have a bad completion % and a bunch of people using it to point to the fact he's inaccurate.

How do you explain when he has an open receiver and bounces it to him or throws it 5 yards wide of him? That happens all the time.
You are trying to say that since almost half his passes are good that is accurate. Not in this league.

Tebow was not inaccurate in college. And he's not inaccurate in the NFL. The media and a couple of miss-used stats have managed to fool the general public into believing that he is inaccurate which is why it's such a "MIRACLE" when he does it.

Wait so the media is out to get Tebow, and they are using the lowest completion percentage in years by any QB to fool people into thinking he isn't completing many passes?

It's no miracle. Wake up. The kid's accurate and can throw the ball. Always could. What he is, is a dual rush/passer that's unaccustomed to playing NFL style defenses and plays overly conservative to avoid throwing interceptions(which just happen to be one of the main reasons for winning games).

So your argument is that Tebow is the only QB who doesnt want to throw Ints so it costs him 20% completion? You cant really believe that.

An inaccurate quarterback throws a lot of picks. An accurate one doesn't. An accurate quarterback who throws the ball away, plays overly conservative and plays with the 32nd worse receiving corps in dropped passes has a bad completion %. That's all this has been this season. An illusion.

Call every drop complete and he still has the worst completion % in the NFL.

The funniest thing about Tebowmania, is that he lets people talk and doesn't take up for himself even when they call him inaccurate to his face. He smiles, cause he knows better and it plays into the message he's trying to deliver. John Fox also knows this. So do his receivers.

I have no idea what this means. Who walks up to him and says "You are inaccurate" to his face? And why would that have anything to do with anything?

You help it right along. I mean at what point are people going to wake up and realize that when he's nailing these 30, 40, 50 yard bombs, a lot of them through the air, every other week....he might just be an accurate quarterback?

Before yesterday he completed 4 passes thrown over 30 yards downfield in 21 attempts all season. I think you are exxagerating a bit.

 

[Ring 6]

Care to back it up or are you just throwing up your opinion? Again I posted the video above. You can actually take the time and analyze his passes over and over.

Back it up? Ok, watch him throw the ball.

 

[SVN]

I think broncos are going to copy what the dolphins did vs the pats in the 2nd game and come out and blitz up the middle heavily and double gronk and hern. Our Oline has to hold up better than in the last 3 playoff games

 

[PatriotSeven]

To be fair, the pass across the middle late in the game where he bounced it was a bad pass.

The final pass in regular time on 3rd and 8 right? That's what I thought too, until I caught a glimpse of the QB view camera which they showed in the game but don't show it in the highlights.

If you pay attention to the interception that Ben threw, it was a very similar crossing pattern from the opposite direction where he got undercut and intercepted by Champ.

If you look at the QB view when Tebow throws that pass, he throws it right in the middle of his throwing window, to the left and short of the 2 defenders staring him down. Yes it was out of reach of his receiver but more importantly it was also out of reach of that triple coverage in their own territory with a tied game. Could he have placed it more to the right? Sure, I think he could have. Could it have been a mistake? That's a possibility too. But in the end was it worth taking the risk with the ball in their own territory and 3 defenders right there? Not at all. That would have meant game over for sure. Giving their defense a chance clearly worked out for them.

We know when a quarterback makes a bad pass that gets intercepted and we criticize them for making a pass they shouldn't have. But we give no credit to those that AVOID that pass, because they end up with a lower completion %? Seems like a catch 22 to me.

His first pass, according to Irvin, was a miss too. But look closer at the defender who comes down and undercuts the pass. If Tebow throws it to the receiver's position that defender can easily get in front of his receiver and bad things could have happened. So he "missed" 4 feet back to where either his receiver extends and grabs it or goes out of bounds.

I think the results say he makes the right decisions and the other 15-16 passes he nailed perfectly and were straight up drops says he's pretty damn accurate.

 

[PatriotSeven]

Back it up? Ok, watch him throw the ball.

I did. I even posted a link to it. You're free to scrutinize it all you want. I can see maybe one or two passes that could be argued as bad. That is all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPXYWbhl2q0

The man threw 21 times. I'm trying to see these inaccurate throws and I don't. I see 10 receptions. I see 4-5 incompletions that were good and clearly dropped. I see 2-3 passes that were thrown out of bounds. And I saw 1-2 that could be argued as "bad".


You honestly mean to sit there and tell me if it's an incomplete pass, that it means it's an inaccurate or bad throw? lol.

 

[JaxPats]

Part Two coming up :rocker:

 

[mgcolby]

I hate stupid arguments, whether against the Patriots or anyone else. It's not that I love Tebow, it's that the anti-Tebow people are, mostly, completely prejudiced and making stupid arguments.

As I've noted, the Patriots should be the favorites. That doesn't mean it's smart to ignore what the Broncos have been able to do with Tebow as QB, or to ignore what they were able to do against the Steelers. And this "accurate" crap is probably the biggest load of garbage the world has ever seen. It's completely meaningless without context.

And Tebow just beat the hell out of "traditional coverage". Perhaps you saw the game. He shredded a team that essentially shut down Tom Brady, despite Brady's more 'accurate' game.

He is not accurate no matter what context you put it in. I've watched everyone of his games...he misses a lot of open receivers. His balls at times tail off, like a pitcher with a natural cutting fastball. A lot of his balls are wobbly and his recievers are forced to wait on them etc... At times he throws a great ball and shows glimpses of what he is capable of. He just needs to work on getting more consistant, especially on the gimme throws. His completion percentage reflects this.

You call Man two of his three biggest completions shredding a traditional NFL coverage? Please go back through the Pats and Steelers game and point out one play, outside of goal line situations, where the Steelers didn't play at least a single high safety.

1st completion: Decker WR screen behind the LOS.

Honorable Mention: Throws a decent ball, a little high into coverage. Decker dropped the ball after the hit by Harrison.

2nd Completion: Nice throw down the sideline deep to Thomas who is one on one with Taylor with no safety help because Troy bit on an underneath route. 51 Yards.

3rd completion: The best throw I have seen Tebow make all season. TD throw to Royal. Decent spiral in tight one on one coverage. Poor ball play by Gay, but tight coverage. Safety help rolled to twins opposite side of the field. 30 Yards

4th completion: Man 0 all 11 defenders within 7 yards of LOS. Deep throw to Thomas who ran a deep post. 58 Yards.

5th completion: From the Pit 8 a quick screen to Royal for 6 yards.

6th completion: To Fells for 40 yards off of play action single high safety (Troy) you bites on the underneath route and Fells gets behind Gay. Nice play.

(3rd quarter)7th completion: A short comeback route to Royal who gains about 4 yards after the catch. 13 yards.

8th completion: an out route at the sticks for 8 yards.

9th completion: To Thomas single high safety a 12 yard curl route. Good for 14.

10 Completion: This one goes without saying. 11 within 5 yards of the LOS....

Every big play completion either came against Man 0 or when Troy was the single high safety and he bit on something underneath leaving his CB's out to dry.

 

[Deus Irae]

The final pass in regular time on 3rd and 8 right? That's what I thought too, until I caught a glimpse of the QB view camera which they showed in the game but don't show it in the highlights.

If you pay attention to the interception that Ben threw, it was a very similar crossing pattern from the opposite direction where he got undercut and intercepted by Champ.

If you look at the QB view when Tebow throws that pass, he throws it right in the middle of his throwing window, to the left and short of the 2 defenders staring him down. Yes it was out of reach of his receiver but more importantly it was also out of reach of that triple coverage in their own territory with a tied game. Could he have placed it more to the right? Sure, I think he could have. Could it have been a mistake? That's a possibility too. But in the end was it worth taking the risk with the ball in their own territory and 3 defenders right there? Not at all. That would have meant game over for sure. Giving their defense a chance clearly worked out for them.

We know when a quarterback makes a bad pass that gets intercepted and we criticize them for making a pass they shouldn't have. But we give no credit to those that AVOID that pass, because they end up with a lower completion %? Seems like a catch 22 to me.

His first pass, according to Irvin, was a miss too. But look closer at the defender who comes down and undercuts the pass. If Tebow throws it to the receiver's position that defender can easily get in front of his receiver and bad things could have happened. So he "missed" 4 feet back to where either his receiver extends and grabs it or goes out of bounds.

I think the results say he makes the right decisions and the other 15-16 passes he nailed perfectly and were straight up drops says he's pretty damn accurate.

I'm with you in general here. The first pass was not a bad pass. It was a pass wide to the sideline to avoid the close covering defender. It was a miss, but it was a miss in the right area under the circumstances, and the window to make a 'hit' was a small one, so I'm with you on it not being a bad pass.

But that 3rd and 8 was a bad pass. The highlight film you linked to verifies it. Take a look at 9:20-9:24, focusing particularly on 9:23-9:24. The receiver was open and the pass was just a bad one.

 

[Deus Irae]

He is not accurate no matter what context you put it in. I've watched everyone of his games...he misses a lot of open receivers. His balls at times tail off, like a pitcher with a natural cutting fastball. A lot of his balls are wobbly and his recievers are forced to wait on them etc... At times he throws a great ball and shows glimpses of what he is capable of. He just needs to work on getting more consistant, especially on the gimme throws. His completion percentage reflects this.

You call Man two of his three biggest completions shredding a traditional NFL coverage? Please go back through the Pats and Steelers game and point out one play, outside of goal line situations, where the Steelers didn't play at least a single high safety.

1st completion: Decker WR screen behind the LOS.

Honorable Mention: Throws a decent ball, a little high into coverage. Decker dropped the ball after the hit by Harrison.

2nd Completion: Nice throw down the sideline deep to Thomas who is one on one with Taylor with no safety help because Troy bit on an underneath route. 51 Yards.

3rd completion: The best throw I have seen Tebow make all season. TD throw to Royal. Decent spiral in tight one on one coverage. Poor ball play by Gay, but tight coverage. Safety help rolled to twins opposite side of the field. 30 Yards

4th completion: Man 0 all 11 defenders within 7 yards of LOS. Deep throw to Thomas who ran a deep post. 58 Yards.

5th completion: From the Pit 8 a quick screen to Royal for 6 yards.

6th completion: To Fells for 40 yards off of play action single high safety (Troy) you bites on the underneath route and Fells gets behind Gay. Nice play.

(3rd quarter)7th completion: A short comeback route to Royal who gains about 4 yards after the catch. 13 yards.

8th completion: an out route at the sticks for 8 yards.

9th completion: To Thomas single high safety a 12 yard curl route. Good for 14.

10 Completion: This one goes without saying. 11 within 5 yards of the LOS....

Every big play completion either came against Man 0 or when Troy was the single high safety and he bit on something underneath leaving his CB's out to dry.

I saw the game. You keep moving the goalposts. I'm not going that route. You're better than that. And, yes, man coverage is traditional NFL coverage. That's not even arguable.

 

[Ring 6]

Care to back it up or are you just throwing up your opinion? Again I posted the video above. You can actually take the time and analyze his passes over and over.

OK, I watched the game, but I will humor you and do the assignment.

1) Bounced to a wide open receiver
2) Overthrew open receiver, but a tough throw.
3) High throw made the reciever extend fully that exposed him to a hit that jarred it loose. Not a great throw.
4) Excellent throw
5) Excellent throw
NOTE THE COMMENT: FIRST TD IN 22 POSSESSIONS
6) OK, any QB in the NFL could make that throw
7) Should have been an Int. Totally discredits your claim that his % is low because he wont risk an int
8) Terrible pass to an open receiver, This one illustrates the issue. If he had an accurate arm, that is a Td. He threw just a bit late, and drew the revcevier out of bounds.
9) nice throw, but pretty routine, credit for being on the move
10) overthrown
11) routine 4 yard out. Every QB in the league makes that throw
12) screen pass
13) acceptable but not very accurate. if the receiver was more tightly covered that is not complete
14) not a good throw. the revceiver is wide open coming across the middle and has to go to the ground to make the catch. lost a ton of rac here
15) that is a horrible throw. wide open receiver, no duress
16) Good throw but its an 18 yard slant with no one near the QB or receiver. An NFL QB has to make this throw, it is routine

So thats 70% of his passes, 16-2 that were cancelled by penalty.
And the accuracy results are less than exciting on the 14 best.
Look, no one is saying he cannot ever make a throw. He just makes poor throws way more often that other NFL QBs.

To give you an analogy, I could take the pitcher who walks the most batters, and show you the strikes he threw and argue he has command of his pitches. The fact is he doesn't because his accuracy is not consistent, and thats Tebow.

Clearly this is an emotional issue for you. I'd suggest you focus on Tebows strengths instead of trying to argue that his glaring weakness doesn't exist.


EDIT: And by the way, this is the best 70% of the best game, by far, of his career.

 

[mgcolby]

Because you are looking at points scored....and I'm talking about what you actually said "scoring" or "ability to score". The total number is irrelevant. 30 points or 20 points doesn't matter. Their ability to outscore their opponent, whether in a 20-19 game or 38-25 game was still top of the league. And that matters more than total points scored. That's offensive efficiency. That's execution. And sometimes less is more.

But if you don't want to give the kid credit, and believe in miracles, that's all on you. I don't believe in miracles and rarely does luck play a consistent factor. And you act like those balls were not under close coverage or didn't have to cross traffic to get there. The receivers were not the ones adjusting to them. It was Tebow placing the ball where it needed to go. It's not like he didn't do this against cover defenses earlier in the year. It's just that when you use cover they burn you with their run game. If you give them the run, why SHOULD they take the risky pass? Just to "prove" that he can make a high risk pass as good as anyone else? That's stupid. However this video shows just about every one of his passes:

Broncos vs Steelers Playoff Game full Highlights - YouTube

What I see are 21 perfectly good balls. Only 10 of them were actual receptions. Unless you agree with the idiot Irvin who thinks the first pass is a miss because Tebow can anticipate routes of a defender and knew better than throwing that first pass to his receiver's position where that defender was waiting to undercut him. That's the type of stupid throw Ben makes later in the game where he gets intercepted. I saw Ben make inaccurate passes. I didn't see Tebow do it.

Tebow doesn't usually do that. So sometimes they either end up in incompletions or NO ONE gets them. He did it when forcing the ball against the Bills pass D. But that can happen to any QB and it's part of the overall strategy of the game. It happened to Brady. Force any QB to pass to catch up with the clock running against you against preventive pass D that knows you're going to pass, and the chances of throwing a bad pass increases.

Your first paragraph makes little sense and gives absolutely no credit to their own defense and gives the offense all of the credit for scoring. Defenses score too. And you still have not provided a link to where I can find this offensive efficiency stat so that I can see what it take into account. This would be the 3rd request.

 

[Ring 6]

I did. I even posted a link to it. You're free to scrutinize it all you want. I can see maybe one or two passes that could be argued as bad. That is all.

Broncos vs Steelers Playoff Game full Highlights - YouTube

The man threw 21 times. I'm trying to see these inaccurate throws and I don't. I see 10 receptions. I see 4-5 incompletions that were good and clearly dropped. I see 2-3 passes that were thrown out of bounds. And I saw 1-2 that could be argued as "bad".

I don't know what you are looking at. First there are 14 passes that count (2 were penalties) so you couldnt see what you say you did.
How could you possible see drops? The only thing close to a drop was Decker and he had to fully extend and get run into a hit.
There were ZERO thrown out of bounds ON PURPOSE. One took the WR out of bounds in the end zone and was a Td if on line.
There are 6 incompletions not on the tape. The first sideline throw bounced, the one in the endzone was a TD if a good throw, the one before should have been picked, the 3rd and 8 was wildly missed.
Even many of the completions were not accurate, such as the one to Fells with noone near him where he had to fall down to catch it.


You honestly mean to sit there and tell me if it's an incomplete pass, that it means it's an inaccurate or bad throw? lol.[/QUOTE]

 

[PatriotSeven]

Come on man.


How do you explain when he has an open receiver and bounces it to him or throws it 5 yards wide of him? That happens all the time.
You are trying to say that since almost half his passes are good that is accurate. Not in this league.



Wait so the media is out to get Tebow, and they are using the lowest completion percentage in years by any QB to fool people into thinking he isn't completing many passes?


So your argument is that Tebow is the only QB who doesnt want to throw Ints so it costs him 20% completion? You cant really believe that.



Call every drop complete and he still has the worst completion % in the NFL.


I have no idea what this means. Who walks up to him and says "You are inaccurate" to his face? And why would that have anything to do with anything?


Before yesterday he completed 4 passes thrown over 30 yards downfield in 21 attempts all season. I think you are exxagerating a bit.

I'm not impressed by his average, because I know, like with most QB it's heavily dependent on yards after catch. But I have paid attention to Tebow's actual passes all season and I have seen enough to be convinced he's an accurate passer who is overly conservative in not throwing interceptions. I understand what Tebow completes. I understand he has a low % percentage. I am telling you a QB's completion % has less than half to do with the QB's actual accuracy.

completion % =/ accuracy.

Never has and never will. Probably as little as 30% of that is accuracy with the remainder of it being made up by your receiver's catching ability, route running, play calling, etc. It depends on too many other factors. I saw him do this as far back as Kansas City when he only threw 8 passes. I saw him make 6 great throws, only 2 of which were actually caught, one pass interference and one underthrown ball. When you throw only 8 passes in a game even one throw away can cost you 20% in completion %.

Yeah he ended up 2/8 but in reality he threw 6/8 great passes only 2 of which were actually caught by his receivers. I saw passes bounce of shoulders, chests, helmets, hands etc. That's no excuse for the receiver...not a passer issue. If he's constantly underthrowing, overthrowing or missing wildly and throwing picks in traffic, that's inaccuracy. That's not what Tebow does.

How can you argue the effect of having the 32nd worse receiving core in the league in dropped passes? I mean who are Tebow's receivers? Were they burning up the field before Tebow got there?

What I think happened against Pittsburg that helped is Erick Decker, one of the worst offenders in dropped passes for Denver, got hurt while dropping yet another good pass, and opened up the position for another receiver to step up. Granted he was hurt this time, but this guy dropped a lot of good passes this year for Denver.

 

[mgcolby]

I saw the game. You keep moving the goalposts. I'm not going that route. You're better than that. And, yes, man coverage is traditional NFL coverage. That's not even arguable.

That should read "Man 0" not "Man" which is typically Man 1. And that is not typical in the NFL. Hell the Jets rarely run "true man" and as far as I can tell from watching a lot of football that is more than every other team in the league. The Jets when they blitz leave Revis in Man with a safety rolled to the other side.

I don't see how I moved the goal posts. I feel like I stayed well within what we were discussing.