Brandon Lloyd meeting with 49ers: Patriots are gonna blow it

[jays52]

Talk about two sides to a coin.

I'd think we're pretty similar on overall player evaluation. It's just a personal preference thing on the value attributed to that skill set.

For example, I'm a drooling ****** enamored with mario williams, but there's a lot of really knowledgeable people who don't think he's as valuable as I do but view him to be the same player as myself. It's just about what each person values.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Because he only does two things? He runs a streak and a hitch. It's a jab-cross. Corners are playing him with such a loose cushion he'll hitch off of that, and if they play him tighter he'll try to make it a foot race. Occasionally they'll run him on a skinny post between the corner and safety in a cover-2. That's it. His footwork and relative quickness is actually pretty poor and he isn't very good at handfighting when he plays a legit corner. He loses to really good corners and he can't run the really hard to defend routes that the Patriots love. He's got great statistics but compared to say an Andre Johnson it's apples and oranges.

Way too critical. You make him sound like he is the second-coming of Brandon Tate.

I go back to Wallace's production and his statistical improvement in each of his three seasons.

 

[PatsFan2]

Because he only does two things? He runs a streak and a hitch. It's a jab-cross. Corners are playing him with such a loose cushion he'll hitch off of that, and if they play him tighter he'll try to make it a foot race. Occasionally they'll run him on a skinny post between the corner and safety in a cover-2. That's it. His footwork and relative quickness is actually pretty poor and he isn't very good at handfighting when he plays a legit corner. He loses to really good corners and he can't run the really hard to defend routes that the Patriots love. He's got great statistics but compared to say an Andre Johnson it's apples and oranges.

Jay i think Wallace's skill set compliments what we already have how can anyone say he wouldn't fit here or he's not worth it is beyond me. Think of the space he would create for our underneath guys. Patriot fans our Offense can be STOPPED by a Great Defense...which was proven by the Raves even before Gronk was hurt. I said this before and will say it again until we get a legitimate WR on the outside our Offense cannot hold a candle to the Saints or Packer Offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Talk about two sides to a coin.

Jay's comparing him to a top 3-4 NFL receiver. If you compare him to that, you'll find him wanting. If you compare him to most other receivers, you'll be thrilled with him. Right now, he's one of the top 4-5 WRs in the AFC.

 

[Steve102]

I'd think we're pretty similar on overall player evaluation. It's just a personal preference thing on the value attributed to that skill set.

For example, I'm a drooling ****** enamored with mario williams, but there's a lot of really knowledgeable people who don't think he's as valuable as I do but view him to be the same player as myself. It's just about what each person values.

There's that word again...Value.

 

[Snake Eyes]

We lost that game because Gronkowski was hurt and Brady and Welker couldnt connect on a pass, not to mention the dumb safety. none of that has to do with flooding the middle of the field.

There were a ton of things which contributed to that loss, not just the plays that stand out. Did you consider that if we had Brandon Lloyd that Gronk's injury might have mad less impact? Should we expect to be completely healthy next season or that no receiver will drop a pass?

Wars are won by the least incompetent army, and WR is a need that the Pats have been very bad at drafting, where do they expect to fill that need at this point? Or maybe by throwing more receiver crap at the wall like Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Brandon Tate, Ocho, etc.?

Also, I dont think it's very good reasoning to look at their success and attribute it just to the team management when striking it rich with a GOAT QB causing so much of that success.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

Because he only does two things? He runs a streak and a hitch. It's a jab-cross. Corners are playing him with such a loose cushion he'll hitch off of that, and if they play him tighter he'll try to make it a foot race. Occasionally they'll run him on a skinny post between the corner and safety in a cover-2. That's it. His footwork and relative quickness is actually pretty poor and he isn't very good at handfighting when he plays a legit corner. He loses to really good corners and he can't run the really hard to defend routes that the Patriots love. He's got great statistics but compared to say an Andre Johnson it's apples and oranges.

This is what we need, we have guys who will catch the short stuff and two TEs to get physical.

 

[Steve102]

Jay's comparing him to a top 3-4 NFL receiver. If you compare him to that, you'll find him wanting. If you compare him to most other receivers, you'll be thrilled with him. Right now, he's one of the top 4 WRs in the AFC.

I'd like to offer some insight to the player, but I'm not qualified. I only know he's fast. I haven't studied him enough to be able to give more of a scouting report than either you or Jay.

I am only sure that the Pats won't pay any WR, or any player for that matter, and more than they V-A-L-U-E the position.

 

[DaBruinz]

One of the things that makes Wallace so good is his field awareness. He keeps his eyes back on Ben and knows when to break off his route to help Ben out of a jam. The problem is that Brady isn't that sort of QB. We all know Brady doesn't scramble much. Brady will take the sack or throw it away, sometimes to his detriment.

The question is whether or not Wallace has the ability to read defenses and get on the same page as Brady. I don't know that he does. And no one here knows it either.

 

[madmike77]

Talk about two sides to a coin.

The thing is both are kind of true. Wallace isn't a great middle of the field guy. He doesn't have great size and doesn't fight for balls. He also doesn't run the tightest routes.

But he does have incredible speed. Even though he isn't a "complete" receiver he's so fast that he will force defenses to double team and plan around him, opening up the underneath patterns for other receivers.

The question for me is can he play well in a system that relies on sharp routes and timing? Or is much of his production based on Roethlisberger's ability to buy extra time and heave the ball downfield? No one will really know until he leaves Pittsburgh.

EDIT: Oops very similar to the above post which went up while I was writing - anyway I agree 100%.

 

[Garbanza]

Dear Lord.....for real? People are freaking out over possibly losing a chance at signing an over-rated player because it's Josh McDouche's alleged binky?

Please....if I had my druthers, I'd give up the 31st pick in the draft and get Mike Wallace. A real playmaker.

Alas, that will probably not happen either. No way the Pats pay Welker - what? 9 million and another receiver what? Ten? C'mon....

They will address the Reciever position. It just won't be as flashy and sexy as you impatient people would like.

Remember - the teams that make the big day 1 and 2 FA splashes never get to the Superbowl.

 

[RobertWeathers]

.

I am only sure that the Pats won't pay any WR, or any player for that matter, and more than they V-A-L-U-E the position.

This is a complete misconception. The Pats will pay for the player's value to the team.

With the exception of RT, maybe SS (although Rodney got a good bump in 04) and TE (and that day is coming) at one time or another, the Pats have paid big money in every position on the roster.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'd like to offer some insight to the player, but I'm not qualified. I only know he's fast. I haven't studied him enough to be able to give more of a scouting report than either you or Jay.

I am only sure that the Pats won't pay any WR, or any player for that matter, and more than they V-A-L-U-E the position.

Top WRs in the AFC (no particular order)

Bowe
Welker
Wallace
Green
Johnson

The value issue here is the question of how much you value a young (25 year old) WR on a longterm contract versus the cash plus the 31st pick in the draft, and a lot of it comes down to perspective. If you're saying "I don't want to pay top 5 money for a guy who's not a top 5 receiver, especially since I'm dropping big coin to keep Welker", you're not looking at Wallace as a good value. If you're saying "We're one middle-deep threat away from really putting pressure on Super Bowl caliber defenses, and this guy can really threaten opponents in that area", Wallace looks a hell of a lot better in the value department.

Jay's a great source of info, and his opinion should carry weight, IMO. If he's got questions about a player, those questions are most likely worth taking a good, long look at.

 

[PatsFan2]

The thing is both are kind of true. Wallace isn't a great middle of the field guy. He doesn't have great size and doesn't fight for balls. He also doesn't run the tightest routes.

But he does have incredible speed. Even though he isn't a "complete" receiver he's so fast that he will force defenses to double team and plan around him, opening up the underneath patterns for other receivers.

And that's why Wallace compliments us we have players who are Great over the Middle. But we have players who leaves alot to be desired on the outside. Wallace takes our Offense to new Heights.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Jay i think Wallace's skill set compliments what we already have how can anyone say he wouldn't fit here or he's not worth it is beyond me. Think of the space he would create for our underneath guys. Patriot fans our Offense can be STOPPED by a Great Defense...which was proven by the Raves even before Gronk was hurt. I said this before and will say it again until we get a legitimate WR on the outside our Offense cannot hold a candle to the Saints or Packer Offense.

My biggest problem with Wallace is I don't see him doing enough of what the Pats do on offense to really fit. Sure he is a deep threat and he can stretch the field, but if that's all he can do he won't get on the field at all. A huge amount of Wallace's production is on deep, long developing plays, and he is especially effective when Big Ben rolls out and throws deep. The Pats don't do that. Its still a dink and dunk offense, with a lot of short, quick throws from Brady in the pocket. I just don't see that stuff from Wallace. If he can't be productive in this part of the offense, he won't get on the field and Brady certainly won't throw to him. While we always talk about the complexity of the scheme, I think the bigger issue is getting on the same page with Brady and gaining his trust. You bring a guy in that doesn't really do what this offense is built around and Brady will just ignore him, even if he is wide open. He clearly didn't trust Ocho, and rarely got the ball to him, even when he was open. I think this is the reason why Lloyd's style of play fits much better (although he looks to cost too much as well). He is a well rounded WR all over the field, that has the ability to be a deep threat.

 

[IllegalContact]

I would have no problems using one 1st rounder on getting wallace and the other 1st rounder to get ladarius webb

then finagle with the rest of the draft to wind up with kendall reyes, sean mclellin, donte paige-moss, and OL brandon washington

 

[Steve102]

This is a complete misconception. The Pats will pay for the player's value to the team.

With the exception of RT, maybe SS (although Rodney got a good bump in 04) and TE (and that day is coming) at one time or another, the Pats have paid big money in every position on the roster.

The player's value at the position and how it relates to the team, yes. I should have taken the statement a little further.

 

[Wilfork#75]

And that's why Wallace compliments us we have players who are Great over the Middle. But we have players who leaves alot to be desired on the outside. Wallace takes our Offense to new Heights.

The issue is you don't give up a 1st round pick and $10-12mil a year for a complimentary receiver. That's #1 money and that's what he will be asking for.

 

[jays52]

Here's the thing with a Mike Williams type receiver. Yes, he will "take the top off the defense" and "create underneath space". It will work the nuts against upper-mid tier defenses and lower. The issue is that really good defenses will always limit really good offenses. They will take away what you do really well and force you to adapt. Since the advent of the modern passing game, deep receivers have been consistently overvalued. They do make spectacular plays and are for lack of a better term intimidating. They will open things up against all but the best defenses. However, when you have an outside receiver who really just does deep defenses will take him away. It will be accomplished by either rush or really good coverage, but it is not an issue of "if" but of "when". It is much harder to consistently defend adaptability than it is to consistently defend awe-inspiring athleticism. What it comes down to in low scoring games is having a player that can execute a more diverse compliment of routes as it will enable you to make that one critical drive that those games come down to. That is our entire conversation for this team in a nutshell. They already will win the vast majority of games, but when competing against a defense that is going to dramatically slow you your ability to counterpunch is exponentially more important.

 

[Gronkandez]

I would have no problems using one 1st rounder on getting wallace and the other 1st rounder to get ladarius webb

then finagle with the rest of the draft to wind up with kendall reyes, sean mclellin, donte paige-moss, and OL brandon washington

I wouldn't necessarily mind that on paper but it would kill their cap and I believe the Ravens would be able to match the offer unless it was insane.

Gaffney and Santana Moss may be cut. We know what Gaffney can do and if S. Moss is still fast, he might be a good/cheaper deep threat option.

Ideally I'd like the Pats to beef up the DL, re-sign Connolly and draft a Center.