Brandon Lloyd meeting with 49ers: Patriots are gonna blow it

[RobertWeathers]

Bedard's piece on Sunday went though the baggage that Lloyd drags around with to every team that he has played for. 5 teams in 8 years is not good.

Unless it's a Moss/Haynesworth-type of agreement, no thanks.

 

[RIpats88]

For everyone who is saying not to pay lloyd 5-6million....that is what bill paid ochocinco for a whopping 15 catches...

So why not pay lloyd that for a lot better production? And ocho was originally meant to be the 4th option

 

[patsfan13]

Lloyd @ ~ 5-6M for 3-4 yrs is what we should look for. Certainly he isn't going to get what Welker will, nor should he.

I wouldn't take it for granted that he will necessarily be the #4 target he and Hernandez could be 3a/b, Gronk is the #1 in the red zone, but not necessarily elsewhere.

Who is #1 is something of field position + down + distance, situational football folks.

 

[Clonamery]

For everyone who is saying not to pay lloyd 5-6million....that is what bill paid ochocinco for a whopping 15 catches...

So why not pay lloyd that for a lot better production? And ocho was originally meant to be the 4th option

How many years?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lloyd @ ~ 5-6M for 3-4 yrs is what we should look for. Certainly he isn't going to get what Welker will, nor should he.

I wouldn't take it for granted that he will necessarily be the #4 target he and Hernandez could be 3a/b, Gronk is the #1 in the red zone, but not necessarily elsewhere.

Who is #1 is something of field position + down + distance, situational football folks.

Thats why I don't think BB will pay the 4th option in the passing game $6m a year regardless if he can stretch the field or catch outside the hashes.

I believe that BB shelled out $6m for Ocho because he didn't know big of a jump Gronk and AH would make and how complete WW's recovery would be.

I still think the play is for Wallace and if he puts up 70 catches and 1200 yds in this offence and Brady loves him, you pay him what you would pay WW in 2012.

 

[Rob0729]

Thats why I don't think BB will pay the 4th option in the passing game $6m a year regardless if he can stretch the field or catch outside the hashes.

I believe that BB shelled out $6m for Ocho because he didn't know big of a jump Gronk and AH would make and how complete WW's recovery would be.

I still think the play is for Wallace and if he puts up 70 catches and 1200 yds in this offence and Brady loves him, you pay him what you would pay WW in 2012.

Would Lloyd be the fourth receiving option? If the Pats would have a legitimate outside WR, the number of passes that way would go up exponentially. I could see Lloyd potentially being the third receiver in catches and possibly #1 in yards just because he is a deep threat.

Also, that $5-6 million a year is a bargain for a #1 outside WR with deep threat capabilities (think deep threat is overrated, but definitely an asset). Unless the Pats want to start Ochocinco or Branch next season, they have to spend $5-6 million. Have you looked at the market? #2 outside WRs are getting that type of money. That is #2 WR money.

 

[Clonamery]

Would Lloyd be the fourth receiving option?

Yes, of course.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Would Lloyd be the fourth receiving option?

Thats the thing, Rob. The Pats already have 2 1300yd receivers in Gronk and WW and with his flexibility in the offense, AH would have come close to 1000yds last year as he missed 2 games. I think that there are only so many footballs to go around. As it stands, I think Lloyd is the 4th option in THIS offense. In other offenses, he is a #1 or #2 for sure.

If the Pats would have a legitimate outside WR, the number of passes that way would go up exponentially. I could see Lloyd potentially being the third receiver in catches and possibly #1 in yards just because he is a deep threat.

Ideally would I rather have big plays in the passing game than the dink-n-dunk we do now? Cosmetically, sure. But I really have no qualms about the Pats offense (except the running game and the ability to hit an outside receiver now and then) however, I'd still rather see Brady throwing to WW and Gronk instead of LLoyd. AH and Lloyd is a toss-up in this offense. I understand that most Qbs would rather throw to Lloyd because of his big-play potential. I understand that.

Also, that $5-6 million a year is a bargain for a #1 outside WR with deep threat capabilities (think deep threat is overrated, but definitely an asset). Unless the Pats want to start Ochocinco or Branch next season, they have to spend $5-6 million. Have you looked at the market? #2 outside WRs are getting that type of money. That is #2 WR money.

Lloyd is an outstanding talent and worth $6m no question. I also think that he is a head-case.

So in looking at the big picture, because of what we already have in this offense and LLoyd's baggage, I would not pay a 31 yr old WR $6m a year to play in this offense. I would rather give up a #1 and pay a 26yr old Wallace $6m a year.

My .02$

 

[Rob0729]

Thats the thing, Rob. The Pats already have 2 1300yd receivers in Gronk and WW and with his flexibility in the offense, AH would have come close to 1000yds last year as he missed 2 games. I think that there are only so many footballs to go around. As it stands, I think Lloyd is the 4th option in THIS offense. In other offenses, he is a #1 or #2 for sure.

And that was under Bill O'Brien and in an offense where the Pats had no legitimate outside options. I mean Deion Branch who hit the age wall last year had 51 catch and 702 yards.


Besides, if the Pats keep on using Gronk like he is, he will be broken down in three or four years.

Ideally would I rather have big plays in the passing game than the dink-n-dunk we do now? Cosmetically, sure. But I really have no qualms about the Pats offense (except the running game and the ability to hit an outside receiver now and then) however, I'd still rather see Brady throwing to WW and Gronk instead of LLoyd. AH and Lloyd is a toss-up in this offense. I understand that most Qbs would rather throw to Lloyd because of his big-play potential. I understand that.

I don't agree. I can see McDaniels using Lloyd much like he used Moss except to a lesser extent. The guy can run any route and is a legitimate outside and deep threat somethng that is missing.

Lloyd is an outstanding talent and worth $6m no question. I also think that he is a head-case.

So in looking at the big picture, because of what we already have in this offense and LLoyd's baggage, I would not pay a 31 yr old WR $6m a year to play in this offense. I would rather give up a #1 and pay a 26yr old Wallace $6m a year.

My .02$

So you don't want to pay Lloyd $6 million to be a #4 receiving option, but you want to pay Wallace $10-12 million and give up a first round pick to make him a fourth option. The drop off from Wallace to Lloyd in a McDaniels' offense isn't that great. Even with lesser QBs for Lloyd, they both have about the same number of yards (2414 yards for Lloyd and 2450 for Wallace), TDs (16 for Lloyd and 18 for Wallace), and receptions (147 for Lloyd and 132 for Wallace) over the last two years. There isn't as much difference between Wallace and Lloyd as you are making out to be. Yes, Wallace is better and younger which might make him a better option, but Lloyd has done similar production with lesser QBs.

Also, $6 million a year isn't more than good #2 WR money at this point. Why not given a guy who is a proven stud in McDaniels' system good #2 money. I think he will be more intrical in this offense than you give him credit for.


The Pats used the inside game because they had to as much as they have three great talents. Ideally they want to throw a lot of balls to outside receivers because it makes them much more dangerous. They need an outside WR who can take the defenses from flooding the middle. To get that type of receiver, you have got to pay around $5-6 million million a year. Otherwise, you might as well go with guys like Branch or someone similar and go really cheap because in this market $5-6 million is decent money, not good money.

 

[Steve102]

Lloyd @ ~ 5-6M for 3-4 yrs is what we should look for. Certainly he isn't going to get what Welker will, nor should he.

I wouldn't take it for granted that he will necessarily be the #4 target he and Hernandez could be 3a/b, Gronk is the #1 in the red zone, but not necessarily elsewhere.

Who is #1 is something of field position + down + distance, situational football folks.

I would add that it's also about D scheme and what teams try to take away.

 

[The Scrizz]

I would add that it's also about D scheme and what teams try to take away.

I would add that Brady throws to whoever is open and if they take away Welker and the 2-headed TE monster then a WR who can still get deep with separation (unlike Branch) while running the correct route (unlike Cero Cero) will get his share of catches.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, of course.

I disagree. In many games, he would be the #1 option. Look at this past year, Branch was the #1 option in several games. And he isn't close to what Lloyd is at this point in their careers.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Boy...this thread won't die...

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

Boy...this thread won't die...

I know. I dont think it will die until A) He signs here or B)HE signs with another team.

Food for thought...

Brandon Lloyd - St. Louis Rams - 2012 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

 

[RobertWeathers]

And that was under Bill O'Brien and in an offense where the Pats had no legitimate outside options. I mean Deion Branch who hit the age wall last year had 51 catch and 702 yards.


Besides, if the Pats keep on using Gronk like he is, he will be broken down in three or four years.

I don't expect the offense to change that much under JMcD. I'm not going to say that Gronk will be burnt out at 27. Who knows.

I don't agree. I can see McDaniels using Lloyd much like he used Moss except to a lesser extent. The guy can run any route and is a legitimate outside and deep threat somethng that is missing.

An outside threat would help make the offense more flexible and explosive. After factoring in everything we know about Lloyd, I'd rather have Wallace.

So you don't want to pay Lloyd $6 million to be a #4 receiving option, but you want to pay Wallace $10-12 million and give up a first round pick to make him a fourth option.

I never said I would pay Wallace 10-12m a year either. I believe its appropriate to pay him less than that. If he wants VJax $$$ he won't come here. He is a 4th yr WR who is still developing. Hes shown improvement every year in the league and is a hard worker and is 5 years younger. In 2013 Gronk and AH are your possession guys and Wallace is your intermediate/deep threat for the next 5 years.

The drop off from Wallace to Lloyd in a McDaniels' offense isn't that great. Even with lesser QBs for Lloyd, they both have about the same number of yards (2414 yards for Lloyd and 2450 for Wallace), TDs (16 for Lloyd and 18 for Wallace), and receptions (147 for Lloyd and 132 for Wallace) over the last two years. There isn't as much difference between Wallace and Lloyd as you are making out to be. Yes, Wallace is better and younger which might make him a better option, but Lloyd has done similar production with lesser QBs.

I don't argue against any of your points, Rob. Lloyd and Wallace are pretty equal.

Also, $6 million a year isn't more than good #2 WR money at this point. Why not given a guy who is a proven stud in McDaniels' system good #2 money. I think he will be more intrical in this offense than you give him credit for.

In my mind, there is a difference between being a #2 WR and a 4th option in the offense. Again, coupled with Lloyd's track-record as a surly locker-room fellow and the role he would have in this offense and his age, I just can't agree, Rob.

The Pats used the inside game because they had to as much as they have three great talents. Ideally they want to throw a lot of balls to outside receivers because it makes them much more dangerous. They need an outside WR who can take the defenses from flooding the middle. To get that type of receiver, you have got to pay around $5-6 million million a year. Otherwise, you might as well go with guys like Branch or someone similar and go really cheap because in this market $5-6 million is decent money, not good money.

I'd rather pay Wallace $6-7m per for 5 years, Rob with the understanding that WW will not be with the team next year when the WR franchise # is $11m. With that said, it's unlikey the Pats will get Wallace anyway if he wants a $20m in guarantees.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I'd rather pay Wallace $6-7m per for 5 years, Rob with the understanding that WW will not be with the team next year when the WR franchise # is $11m. With that said, it's unlikey the Pats will get Wallace anyway if he wants a $20m in guarantees.

You're not getting Wallace for that price

 

[RobertWeathers]

You're not getting Wallace for that price

Thats what I said.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Rob is on the money here, people are getting hung up on option #3 or 4. That really doesn't exist in this offense. There were games this year where they targeted branch more than Hernandez, Hernandez more than gronk and gronk more than welker. B. Lloyd could very well be "number one" given certain matchups and gameplans.

B. Lloyd is by far the best combination of fit, value and need left on the FA market @ WR. You ideally want a vet and a promising Draft pick to throw at a position of need. The pats also have all the leverage, with the exception of the ridiculous WR signings that have taken place. Why would anyone want to pay 11 mil per to Wallace when you've got WW on the tag and those TE's that will need to be signed at somepoint. Mike Wallace can not be had at 6-7 mil I dont care how you tweak it. Pierre Garçon and Meachum are in that neighorhood. That's #2 money like rob said. By #2 I mean second best receiver on the roster. Mike Wallace is not taking second best receiver on the roster money at his age with that skillset.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Rob is on the money here, people are getting hung up on option #3 or 4. That really doesn't exist in this offense. There were games this year where they targeted branch more than Hernandez, Hernandez more than gronk and gronk more than welker. B. Lloyd could very well be "number one" given certain matchups and gameplans.

At the end of the day, you had your 1, 2 and 3 "receivers" combined for almost 80% of the completions and 72% of the yards for an offense that put up 32 ppg.

Lloyd would get touches in this offense certainly. Seeing that Brady is on record as saying he throws to the open receiver, are you saying Lloyd would get open more than AH, Gronk and WW next year? If he gets Branch's touches and yards, that's worth $6m and whatever signing bonus for the 4th amigo? Only so many balls to go around....

B. Lloyd is by far the best combination of fit, value and need left on the FA market @ WR.

Right. Wallace is a RFA.

You ideally want a vet and a promising Draft pick to throw at a position of need. The pats also have all the leverage, with the exception of the ridiculous WR signings that have taken place.

Getting a vet is fine. Getting a WR for $6m a year + guarantees who is 31 and a head-case is another. If Lloyd wasn't a head-case I'd think more about it.

Why would anyone want to pay 11 mil per to Wallace when you've got WW on the tag and those TE's that will need to be signed at somepoint. Mike Wallace can not be had at 6-7 mil I dont care how you tweak it. Pierre Garçon and Meachum are in that neighorhood. That's #2 money like rob said.

I've gone on record that it is unlikely that Wallace comes here but if WW does not sign the tender and the team does not want to pay him $11m next year, the Pats need to think long-term here.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Gonzalez coming in for meeting...hmm