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Brady Second Circuit Judges: Parker, Katzmann, Chin

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Agree on all fronts.

The NFL is clearly going to steer as far away from the "facts" of the case as they can and argue about process. With Clement up front, they're probably going to try to make this a "Landmark" case about the rights of management under CBA's. But it looks like they might, once again, have gotten the wrong judges to whom to make that kind of argument.


absent precedent, yes..........but there was precedent with the Jets kicker.....which also aligned with the equipment rule as written (25K fine)

that will out weigh any argument that under the CBA, then can make it up even though there is a penalty stipulated and and example of it being followed

in a bargained agreement, they cannot be randomly selective with their facts as well as with their punishment

due process
 
Without getting into politics, this statement seems highly dubious: among other things, neither party is likely to nominate the 73-year-old Berman.
I wasnt really referring to Berman but you do have a point with the age in which SCJ's are typically nominated and appointed. Its my understanding that they typically are in the 50s.

Chin is 61 or 62
Katzmann is 65 or 66
Parker is 71

Clement is 49 and a fmr SG so his is absolutely in the right age bracket.
 
That is correct.



That is correct



Not accurate. Lawyers and judges leverage past opinions, decisions and dissents to support their argument and own opinion on a case. It doesn't need to be a 1:1 mapping of the exact set of circumstances to justify it being leveraged in a case.
They have to be applicable.
This case is solely about the powers of the arbitrator under a CBA.

Applying it to what you are saying would be like Brady citing a criminal case.

What from this case could possibly apply to a wrongful termination suit?

Your honor, my client was wrongfully terminated from his job because the second district court ruled that Roger Goodell didn't have the appropriate powers under the NFL CBA to suspend Tom Brady.

They are ruling on the events of the arbitration hearing, and Bermans decisions about them. It can only apply to arbitration, because it only about arbitration. (It would AFFECT union relationships that are subject to arbitration by clarifying a bit what is acceptable in arbitration)
 
I wasnt really referring to Berman but you do have a point with the age in which SCJ's are typically nominated and appointed. Its my understanding that they typically are in the 50s.

Chin is 61 or 62
Katzmann is 65 or 66
Parker is 71

Clement is 49 and a fmr SG so his is absolutely in the right age bracket.
So we can add Supreme Court Justice to the list of who Tom Brady has beaten
 
Papa Hinkley (Texas Big Oil) was longtime friend and campaign donor to....George Bush Sr.

Who becomes President if Reagan dies?

I forgot about that theory. Maybe Bill'OReilly needs to add that to his book
 
They have to be applicable.
This case is solely about the powers of the arbitrator under a CBA.

Applying it to what you are saying would be like Brady citing a criminal case.

What from this case could possibly apply to a wrongful termination suit?

Your honor, my client was wrongfully terminated from his job because the second district court ruled that Roger Goodell didn't have the appropriate powers under the NFL CBA to suspend Tom Brady.

They are ruling on the events of the arbitration hearing, and Bermans decisions about them. It can only apply to arbitration, because it only about arbitration. (It would AFFECT union relationships that are subject to arbitration by clarifying a bit what is acceptable in arbitration)
Not termination....suspension.
 
absent precedent, yes..........but there was precedent with the Jets kicker.....which also aligned with the equipment rule as written (25K fine)

that will out weigh any argument that under the CBA, then can make it up even though there is a penalty stipulated and and example of it being followed

in a bargained agreement, they cannot be randomly selective with their facts as well as with their punishment

due process
yes, i guess that's what Judge Berman meant by Goodell inventing "his own brand of industrial justice."
 
It can get a lot worse.

This could go to the Supreme Court after NFL loses the appeal.

If Brady wins the appeal and it goes to SCOTUS, Brady will win again even if there is a tie. Goodell will be 0-2-1 in deflated football trials.

I can see Associate Justice Elena Kagan in her Fireman Ed helmet leading the gallery in: "J-E-T-S! JETS! JETS! JETS!" as Roger Goodell slinks from the courtroom.

 
I anticipate both the content and presentation of the NFL's argument to be significantly improved from the debacle in front of Judge Berman.
Well, according to the legal analysts I've read, the brief certainly wasn't.
 
Well, according to the legal analysts I've read, the brief certainly wasn't.
No kidding. You can't put a silk hat on a sheep and make it better looking unless you are Greek
 
I just re-read Judge Berman's entire decision from start to finish.

1. This ruling is made from the full assumption that Brady is guilty of deflating the balls, and the appellate team is grasping at straws in arguing that Berman asserted himself as an arbitrator of facts and not process. Berman is very careful the entire time not to wander off into that area.

2. Berman acknowledges there are conflicting precedents in several areas, including an arbitrator's power in proceedings on which witnesses are necessary and which documents can be shared. That is, some precedents imply an arbitrator can in fact make a decision to withhold these sources during the arbitration trial while others have vacated awards for that. Berman uses the word "however" a few times, or in other words, this is one where he's picking one of two courses, but another judge might not agree.

3. In my opinion, the areas that were not argued yet, Goodell's impartiality, Goodell's basis for a punishment exceeding the original appeal evidence (a very critical, underlooked area), are very strong in favor of Brady, so if there was a poison pill, this could get even more messy for the NFL.

4. One last thing I just wanted to add. A lot of people believe this case will be decided based on the political affiliations of the appellate judges. It's more complicated than that and in favor of Brady. That presumes that the judges will rule prima facie, or in other words, they will just rule on this case as though Berman never issued a decision initially. If they do not rule prima facie, they are not ruling on the case but on whether or not Berman erred in the judicial process (much like Berman is ruling on Goodell's proceedings only.)

If all the cases were just ruled prima facie with no deference to the original judge's decision, we would probably have a a lot more rulings overturned on appeal. For example, if there's a 50/50 split in Dems and Reps in the courts, and there is no attention paid to the original ruling, you'd see about 50% of the cases overturned, since it would some down only to party lines. The actual numbers are closer to 10%. In other words, conservatives and liberals don't agree on a lot of the rulings, but overturning based on judicial error and just ruling differently are two different things - assuming they don't use prima facie.

5. So, all in all, I think there's a good chance this ruling stands for the following reasons:

-If the judges do not go prima facie and ruling on the judicial decisions rather than just the arguments, there's a very small chance this gets overturned.

-Even if they do use prima facie, at least two of the judges appear to be liberal.

-Berman's initial decision makes it "more likely than not" that Brady's case is stronger; it's more likely his judgement is consistent with other judges than anomalous.

-Berman ruled 3/3 points in favor of overturning when just 1/3 would have sufficed.

-There are still three other grounds for overturning the appeal that were not addressed in Berman's ruling which could still be trouble for the NFL.
 
It is mind-boggling how incredibly stupid the NFL and their attorneys are. I mean, think about this.

You hire XYZ Company to conduct an investigation, knowing that later on, you are going to be acting as the arbitrator on whether or not to affirm or deny XYZ Company's findings. You then have XYZ Company sit at the appeal hearing acting as both the report provider and your counsel. influencing you as to whether or not you should accept their findings.

The NFL could have easily just hired a different firm to conduct the investigation or a different firm to sit in the arbitration hearing with them.

How did these high-priced attorneys not realize how bad this looks and how potentially damaging it would be to their case later on?

I don't even know if it's possible, no matter how good Paul Clement is, to transform this into a win.
 
Lol to me it isn't a theory. That's too much of a coincidence. Any sane person would think so.

I agree with you that there are a multitude of coincidences.
 
It is mind-boggling how incredibly stupid the NFL and their attorneys are. I mean, think about this.

You hire XYZ Company to conduct an investigation, knowing that later on, you are going to be acting as the arbitrator on whether or not to affirm or deny XYZ Company's findings. You then have XYZ Company sit at the appeal hearing acting as both the report provider and your counsel. influencing you as to whether or not you should accept their findings.

The NFL could have easily just hired a different firm to conduct the investigation or a different firm to sit in the arbitration hearing with them.

How did these high-priced attorneys not realize how bad this looks and how potentially damaging it would be to their case later on?

I don't even know if it's possible, no matter how good Paul Clement is, to transform this into a win.
Clement is using this case to raise his profile. If he wins hes a god. If he loses then it was expected.
 
So you have the Chief Judge and two other high-powered, well respected US Federal Court judges that preside over major cases on a daily basis and are one promotion away from the US Supreme Court and now they need to hear a labor law dispute in which it's genesis is born from deflated footballs caused by atmospheric conditions and led by an agenda-driven idiot commissioner and bratty owners.

So f***ing stupid it's embarrassing. I can't even begin to think how other countries around the world perceive this madness.
I'd love to point the finger and laugh at the US but Australia, through an obvious lack of political leadership, finds itself headed down a precarious path, one I'm not happy with at all.

It's funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. If it's rotten at the top, it ruins the rest. Sadly, we've watched a rotten NFL conduct a witch hunt for no good reason at all. Hopefully, the learned folk sitting on the bench see right through this ****.
 
I'd love to point the finger and laugh at the US but Australia, through an obvious lack of political leadership, finds itself headed down a precarious path, one I'm not happy with at all.

It's funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. If it's rotten at the top, it ruins the rest. Sadly, we've watched a rotten NFL conduct a witch hunt for no good reason at all. Hopefully, the learned folk sitting on the bench see right through this ****.

Yea we are all sucking wind theses days.

Love Australia! Have been there a few times over the years. Beautiful country...
 
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