Brady is the best according to NY Daily News

[Ring 6]

It wasn't the fault of Rivers that Troy Brown got that ball back, and Rivers has beaten the Colts in the playoffs.

Who's fault was Rivers 43.8% complete and 55.5 QB rating in that game?
Are you now saying doing enough to be carried to a win by your teammates as long as they don't make any errors all day is the measure of greatness?

 

[Rob0729]

Rivers came out of the game where his team was led to the AFCC game.

I don't understand why there are so many comments about Rivers playing in that AFCC game making him something special. He played hurt. Many players do. I dont find it so special. Had he played well, that might be a different story.

The guy played without an ACL. It wasn't just playing hurt. I'd like to see you walk without an ACL nevermind play quarterback in the AFC Championships. This was not a sprain.

Part of the reason why Rivers played like crap was because LT took himself out of the game and the Pats didn't have to concern themselves with the run as much.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Rivers came out of the game where his team was led to the AFCC game.

I don't understand why there are so many comments about Rivers playing in that AFCC game making him something special. He played hurt. Many players do. I dont find it so special. Had he played well, that might be a different story.

Respectfully disagree. Rivers played w/ a 75% torn ACL, on the road in crappy weather in a game they could have won. I agree, he did played like crap. Brady did too and you could argue that his injury was more of a detriment to his throwing mechanics than Rivers'. Be that as it may, any QB who plays hurt who knows he wont be 100% and wants to lead his team deserves some level of respect. Players respond to that type of stuff. They get fired up. They want to go to war with a guy like that. IMO a quality of a great QB is the respect his line and skill players have for him. Rivers has that in SD.

 

[Ring 6]

Rivers post-season stats are not impressive:
att comp yd td int ypa comp% rating
107 189 1522 7 7 8.1 56.6 79.7

nor are Elis

113 193 1297 8 7 6.7 58.5 77.6


peyton's are somewhat better, but note the big dropoff from reg season

348 564 4208 22 17 7.5 61.7 85.0

WINNERS HAVE A LOT IN COMMON
montana
460 734 5772 45 21 7.9 62.7 95.6

aikman

320 502 3849 23 17 7.7 63.7 88.3

brady
372 595 3954 26 12 6.6 62.5 88.0

ben r
172 278 2239 15 12 8.1 61.9 87.2



plunkett

162 272 2293 11 12 8.4 59.6 81.9
impressive considering the era (81.9 rating was good then, not so good now) and the fact that his career reg season comp% and rating were 52.5 and 67.5. Pretty much makes sense why he may be the least accomplished regular season QB to win 2 SBs.


Others of interest

dilfer
59 135 971 4 4 7.2 43.7 66.0


bledsoe
129 252 1335 6 12 5.3 51.2 54.9
***couple of interesting facts on Drew...the 2001 AFCC was his last playoff game
and that game (as much as his play has been criticized here) was his highest single game playoff QB rating of his career at 77.9

marino
385 687 4510 32 24 6.6 56.0 77.1
Anyone surprised why all those regular season numbers dont add up to titles? He was a medicore playoff QB.



Very interesting to me that looking at post season stats seems to really clarify the difference between QBs who won consistently and those who did not.
I think there is a long, long history in the NFL where you can divide 'good QBs' between those that win and those that don't and the ones that don't typically have a sharp drop in their numbers when the playoffs start.

 

[Ring 6]

The guy played without an ACL. It wasn't just playing hurt. I'd like to see you walk without an ACL nevermind play quarterback in the AFC Championships. This was not a sprain.

Part of the reason why Rivers played like crap was because LT took himself out of the game and the Pats didn't have to concern themselves with the run as much.

I still dont see what that has to do with his ability as a QB.
Umm, Michael Turner, yeah the guy who raqn for 1700 yards last year was in there in LTs place.

 

[Ring 6]

Respectfully disagree. Rivers played w/ a 75% torn ACL, on the road in crappy weather in a game they could have won. I agree, he did played like crap. Brady did too and you could argue that his injury was more of a detriment to his throwing mechanics than Rivers'. Be that as it may, any QB who plays hurt who knows he wont be 100% and wants to lead his team deserves some level of respect. Players respond to that type of stuff. They get fired up. They want to go to war with a guy like that. IMO a quality of a great QB is the respect his line and skill players have for him. Rivers has that in SD.

Again, I don't see how that has to do with his ability as a QB.
If you say Tom Brady played with a 104 fever in Pittsburgh, played a great game and won, then I see the correlation. To say, he took the field when he was hurt doesnt convince me of anything more than his threshold for pain.

 

[Deus Irae]

Who's fault was Rivers 43.8% complete and 55.5 QB rating in that game?
Are you now saying doing enough to be carried to a win by your teammates as long as they don't make any errors all day is the measure of greatness?

Andy, you might want to re-read what I was posting for context.

 

[Ring 6]

Respectfully disagree. Rivers played w/ a 75% torn ACL, on the road in crappy weather in a game they could have won. I agree, he did played like crap. Brady did too and you could argue that his injury was more of a detriment to his throwing mechanics than Rivers'. Be that as it may, any QB who plays hurt who knows he wont be 100% and wants to lead his team deserves some level of respect. Players respond to that type of stuff. They get fired up. They want to go to war with a guy like that. IMO a quality of a great QB is the respect his line and skill players have for him. Rivers has that in SD.

The only reason they could have won was they were the only other team on the field. Outside of that, it wasn't really a close game.

I don't know if I believe he has the respect of his teammates. He is a class A jerk he fights in the media with Cutler, he appears to be an attention whore. Other than playing that game hurt, which I do give him credit for, I don't know how he has certainly earned the respect of his teammates. I'd say playing well in a playoff game might help.
If he were my teammate, his horrendous play the year before when we were 14-2 and at home and lost affects my respect for him more than him playing with an injury.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Rivers post-season stats are not impressive:
att comp yd td int ypa comp% rating
107 189 1522 7 7 8.1 56.6 79.7

nor are Elis

113 193 1297 8 7 6.7 58.5 77.6


peyton's are somewhat better, but note the big dropoff from reg season

348 564 4208 22 17 7.5 61.7 85.0

WINNERS HAVE A LOT IN COMMON
montana
460 734 5772 45 21 7.9 62.7 95.6

aikman

320 502 3849 23 17 7.7 63.7 88.3

brady
372 595 3954 26 12 6.6 62.5 88.0

ben r
172 278 2239 15 12 8.1 61.9 87.2



plunkett

162 272 2293 11 12 8.4 59.6 81.9
impressive considering the era (81.9 rating was good then, not so good now) and the fact that his career reg season comp% and rating were 52.5 and 67.5. Pretty much makes sense why he may be the least accomplished regular season QB to win 2 SBs.


Others of interest

dilfer
59 135 971 4 4 7.2 43.7 66.0


bledsoe
129 252 1335 6 12 5.3 51.2 54.9
***couple of interesting facts on Drew...the 2001 AFCC was his last playoff game
and that game (as much as his play has been criticized here) was his highest single game playoff QB rating of his career at 77.9

marino
385 687 4510 32 24 6.6 56.0 77.1
Anyone surprised why all those regular season numbers dont add up to titles? He was a medicore playoff QB.



Very interesting to me that looking at post season stats seems to really clarify the difference between QBs who won consistently and those who did not.
I think there is a long, long history in the NFL where you can divide 'good QBs' between those that win and those that don't and the ones that don't typically have a sharp drop in their numbers when the playoffs start.

Great post. Here are few more noteworthy names.

Donovan McNabb (9-6) - 322 completions, 540 attempts, 3,522 yards, 23 touchdowns, 16 picks, and a 80.8 QB rating

Jim Kelly (9-8) - 322 completions, 545 attempts, 3,863 yards, 21 touchdowns, 28 picks, and a 72.3 QB rating

Warren Moon (3-7) - 259 completions, 403 attempts, 2,870 yards, 17 touchdowns, 14 picks, and an 84.9 QB rating

Dan Marino (8-10) - 385 completions, 687 attempts, 4,510 yards, 32 touchdowns, 24 picks, and a 77.1 QB rating

Dan Fouts (3-4) – 159 completions, 286 attempts, 2,125 yards, 12 touchdowns, 16 picks, and a 70.0 QB rating

Frank Tarkenton (6-5) – 149 completions, 292 attempts, 1,803 yards, 11 touchdowns, 17 picks, and a 58.6 QB rating

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, you might want to re-read what I was posting for context.

You said it wasnt his fault that Troy Brown stripped the ball after the int,in response to comments about his playoff record. That would be implying he isnt accountable for that loss, wouldn't it? If you meant something else, context doesnt indicate that, you would have to explain.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Again, I don't see how that has to do with his ability as a QB.
If you say Tom Brady played with a 104 fever in Pittsburgh, played a great game and won, then I see the correlation. To say, he took the field when he was hurt doesnt convince me of anything more than his threshold for pain.

Playing with pain in playoff games is a quality attribute of leadership.

No question what TB did in the 04 AFCCC is a HUGE pelt.

We agree to disagree. No prob.

 

[Ring 6]

Great post. Here are few more noteworthy names.

Donovan McNabb (9-6) - 322 completions, 540 attempts, 3,522 yards, 23 touchdowns, 16 picks, and a 80.8 QB rating

Jim Kelly (9-8) - 322 completions, 545 attempts, 3,863 yards, 21 touchdowns, 28 picks, and a 72.3 QB rating

Warren Moon (3-7) - 259 completions, 403 attempts, 2,870 yards, 17 touchdowns, 14 picks, and an 84.9 QB rating

Dan Marino (8-10) - 385 completions, 687 attempts, 4,510 yards, 32 touchdowns, 24 picks, and a 77.1 QB rating

Dan Fouts (3-4) – 159 completions, 286 attempts, 2,125 yards, 12 touchdowns, 16 picks, and a 70.0 QB rating

Frank Tarkenton (6-5) – 149 completions, 292 attempts, 1,803 yards, 11 touchdowns, 17 picks, and a 58.6 QB rating

Another interesting way to look at it is the stats of the last game of the season.
I looked it up once on Marino, and those stats (essentially in the playoff losses) were horrendous, which I felt countered the argument that he was great and had no help so thats why he didnt win a ring. Because just about every season they lost on a day he played horribly. I've never believed in the argument that Marino:
A) Amassed great stats
B) The reason he didnt win was all those other players
C) A and B have nothing to do with each other
Marino's volume stats were a fuction of Shula relying on him to carry the team. It worked to the extent of helping him accumulate stats but did not work to the extent he wasnt good enough to carry them to a title. You cant praise him for taking advantage of the situation and not criticize him for failing to achieve the ltimate success in it.

It would be interesting to see last game stats on McNabb and Kelly, both guys who had early round playoff success, but failed when they got deep into the playoffs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The only reason they could have won was they were the only other team on the field. Outside of that, it wasn't really a close game.

I don't know if I believe he has the respect of his teammates. He is a class A jerk he fights in the media with Cutler, he appears to be an attention whore. Other than playing that game hurt, which I do give him credit for, I don't know how he has certainly earned the respect of his teammates. I'd say playing well in a playoff game might help.
If he were my teammate, his horrendous play the year before when we were 14-2 and at home and lost affects my respect for him more than him playing with an injury.

It was 14-12 going into the 4th qtr. C'mon....

Rivers is a hothead no question. But hes won 3 playoff games - unlike Cutler.

 

[Rob0729]

I still dont see what that has to do with his ability as a QB.
Umm, Michael Turner, yeah the guy who raqn for 1700 yards last year was in there in LTs place.

Turner had a break out season last year, not in 2007.

As for his ability at QB. Rivers likes to move in the pocket. Without an ACL, it is going to affect his ability to move. The fact that the Pats knew he had an injured knee allowed them to load up on the rush and force Rivers to get rid of the ball quickly.

Besides, was it Rivers' fault that the Pats had the ball for 2/3rds of the fourth quarter on one single possession that lasted 9:13?

 

[Ring 6]

Playing with pain in playoff games is a quality attribute of leadership.

No question what TB did in the 04 AFCCC is a HUGE pelt.

We agree to disagree. No prob.

Would you agree that that is an EXAMPLE of leadership? That a poor leader who plays injured does not automatically become a good leader?
Would you further agree that consistently underachieving teams have poor leadership?

I'm not trying to diminish him playing hurt, I'm just saying it is being overstated.
Surely it endeared him to his teammates. But if he is disliked to begin with, it doesnt make him a leader.
My impression of Rivers is that he is a spoiled brat, and not a team player. That was the consensus on him before he played with that injury.
What I am saying is if that is correct, he is not a leader that his teammates look up to because of that game. Being a leader is an every day thing, and it is much harder to earn if you start without the respect.

I am not inside the Charger lockerroom, but if his teammates didnt respect him prior to that game (and it was because of a correct perception) then they still don't. If they doubted him, that may have won them over, if they already respected him, it cemented it.

I think where we disagree is I think they didn't respect him before that and you seem to feel it was one of the other 2 scenarios.

 

[Deus Irae]

You said it wasnt his fault that Troy Brown stripped the ball after the int,in response to comments about his playoff record. That would be implying he isnt accountable for that loss, wouldn't it? If you meant something else, context doesnt indicate that, you would have to explain.

You made an argument that was incorrect to my way of thinking, and I gave a couple of examples countering your assertion. Looking back on them, they still seem abundantly clear to me.

Well there is always hope, because Rivers has yet to prove he can get it done in a big game, and EVERYTHING about him that you hate is consistent with being a guy who always fails in the big game.

It wasn't the fault of Rivers that Troy Brown got that ball back, and Rivers has beaten the Colts in the playoffs.

Rivers has gotten it done in a big game. The Chargers were going to beat the Patriots and this was going to be an ugly win, but a win. He was going to 'prove' that he could win a big game even with a struggling performance. Unfortunately for Rivers and the Chargers, an idiot play by their safety cost them the game.

Rivers HAS beaten the Colts in the playoffs. Those are clearly big games.

Rivers is 3-3 in the playoffs. Passer ratings:

55.5 v. Patriots
46.1 v. Patriots

133.2
92.6
105.4
61.9

He's certainly had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he's won 'big' games.

 

[Ring 6]

Turner had a break out season last year, not in 2007.

As for his ability at QB. Rivers likes to move in the pocket. Without an ACL, it is going to affect his ability to move. The fact that the Pats knew he had an injured knee allowed them to load up on the rush and force Rivers to get rid of the ball quickly.

Besides, was it Rivers' fault that the Pats had the ball for 2/3rds of the fourth quarter on one single possession that lasted 9:13?

So Turner became good in 2008, and sucked in 2007?
Pretty much everyone who spoke about football considered it a small dropoff to Turner, and you are saying the Pats could just ignore the run. Be real. Turner was a known quantity then.

I'm not asking how an injury affects his ability to play, Im asking what him playing with that injury has to do with discussing his ability as a QB.

When did I say anything was his fault?

I said I don't consider him playing that day as a reason to consider in judging how good a QB he is.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Another interesting way to look at it is the stats of the last game of the season.
I looked it up once on Marino, and those stats (essentially in the playoff losses) were horrendous, which I felt countered the argument that he was great and had no help so thats why he didnt win a ring. Because just about every season they lost on a day he played horribly. I've never believed in the argument that Marino:
A) Amassed great stats
B) The reason he didnt win was all those other players
C) A and B have nothing to do with each other
Marino's volume stats were a fuction of Shula relying on him to carry the team. It worked to the extent of helping him accumulate stats but did not work to the extent he wasnt good enough to carry them to a title. You cant praise him for taking advantage of the situation and not criticize him for failing to achieve the ltimate success in it.

It would be interesting to see last game stats on McNabb and Kelly, both guys who had early round playoff success, but failed when they got deep into the playoffs.

In the Marino era, Fins had faulty defenses and put DM in come from behind situations where he needed to carry the team and defenses played himaccordingly. Im generalizing but that IMO is his legacy. Great QB no question.

With the exception of the Giants game, the Bills teams ran into better, more physical teams ('Boys & Skins).

 

[Ring 6]

You made an argument that was incorrect to my way of thinking, and I gave a couple of examples countering your assertion. Looking back on them, they still seem abundantly clear to me.





Rivers has gotten it done in a big game. The Chargers were going to beat the Patriots and this was going to be an ugly win, but a win. He was going to 'prove' that he could win a big game even with a struggling performance. Unfortunately for Rivers and the Chargers, an idiot play by their safety cost them the game.

Rivers HAS beaten the Colts in the playoffs. Those are clearly big games.

Rivers is 3-3 in the playoffs. Passer ratings:

55.5 v. Patriots
46.1 v. Patriots

133.2
92.6
105.4
61.9

He's certainly had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he's won 'big' games.

First of all, the game was not over if Brown didnt strip the ball. Look at the tape or gamebook.
AFTER the Pats scored AND got the ball back they had plenty of time to score again.

Are you truly saying that completing 43.8% of your passes and having a 55.5 rating when your team wins is 'proof' you can win the big one? Isn't it proof your team preventing you from losing it?

Secondly, I don't consider winning a playoff game, then losing another to be 'winning the big game'. A resume built on winning early round playoff games and never advancing beyond a conference championship is not the resume of a proven winner. At least by my definition. I guess there are many winners in your book.

Great he beat the Colts. Every year but one someone has.

 

[Ring 6]

In the Marino era, Fins had faulty defenses and put DM in come from behind situations where he needed to carry the team and defenses played himaccordingly. Im generalizing but that IMO is his legacy. Great QB no question.

With the exception of the Giants game, the Bills teams ran into better, more physical teams ('Boys & Skins).

Then you have to discount Marinos compiling of stats because they built a team that led to him compiling stats, right?
Take a look at his stats in all of those playoff losses.
He played very poorly in almost all of them.

Marino was a very good QB, but he was flawed. The idea that he had no running game or a bad defense is rationalization in my opinion. The defense was handicapped by the pass first approach, and the running game by design. They created an OL that was GREAT pass blocking, had WRs or FBs at TE, and never tried to build a balanced offense.
If I create an offense that is the best pass blocking offense ever (and it wasnt far from that) and play TEs who can catch but can't block, and allow the QB to have every advantage in the passing game, its crazy to say he was handicapped by not having a running game.
Everything about that team was built around putting the ball in Marino's hands. If we give him sole credit (which everyone does) for all the stats that were amassed because of it, how do we not hold him responsible for the fact that the plan to put the ball in his hands failed to win a championship? It can't be both.