Borges got me...help please

[kptmorgan04]

Great discussion, thank you for taking the time and kissing his ass enough to get a reply. I hope that you can take some of the better points from posters such as shemsy and miguel and send them on to Borges and let us know what you get back. probably would be best to not just send the link because I doubt he would take the time to read through everything.

The topic was orignally about Deion and it seems the biggest ? is where exactly Ron and others getting there numbers. there have been quite a few numbers/years floating around out there without anyone saying where they are coming from etc. Miguel seems to have the best grasp of what the exact numbers are (thanks for all your work!) and what the exact bridge between the Pats inital offer and the Jets and Seahawks final offer.
And then of course Ron cant not write something without taking a shot at BB. There were many good points written out on how BB breaching his contract is not entirely the case and there were many other factors than just being in the last year of a rookie contract.
Maybe at the end ask him what he would do. sign deion for x amount and not resign the likes of Dan Grahm, Asante, Koppen etc or sign deoin and not put the excess money this year to go towards Seymour that we shouldnt have even drafted.

 

[belichickaholic]

I read that Parcells lured Belichick to the jets with him on the promise that he would retire soon and Belichick would succeed him.

2 years later, Parcells still hadn't retired and Belichick was going to take the HC job in Oakland. Parcells talked Hess into giving Belichick a 1 million dollar bonus to stay for the 99 season. Parcells still promising to retire.

The next year, when it became apparent that Parcells was not going to retire any time soon and was just stringing him along, Belichick bolted.

Kraft calls to ask permission to interview Belichick,(Jan 3, 2000) Parcells gets pissed and suddenly retires. (Jan 4, 2000) But only to trap Belichick into taking a job he doesn't want. Nice guy that Parcells, eh?

Comparing Branch to Belichick is not fair at all, Belichick wanted out of the Parcells circus. Branch just wants the money.

There is no reasoning with Borges, I wouldn't even try. When he comes on the radio or television I shut him off. As someone said yesterday, it's sad because there's so little patriots coverage as it is.

I was psyched when Felger first started his radio show, thinking we'd here more football talk. But the more I listen lately, the more I want to turn it off. It's just too negative.

 

[shmessy]

I read that Parcells lured Belichick to the jets with him on the promise that he would retire soon and Belichick would succeed him.

2 years later, Parcells still hadn't retired and Belichick was going to take the HC job in Oakland. Parcells talked Hess into giving Belichick a 1 million dollar bonus to stay for the 99 season. Parcells still promising to retire.

The next year, when it became apparent that Parcells was not going to retire any time soon and was just stringing him along, Belichick bolted.

Kraft calls to ask permission to interview Belichick,(Jan 3, 2000) Parcells gets pissed and suddenly retires. (Jan 4, 2000) But only to trap Belichick into taking a job he doesn't want. Nice guy that Parcells, eh?

Comparing Branch to Belichick is not fair at all, Belichick wanted out of the Parcells circus. Branch just wants the money.

There is no reasoning with Borges, I wouldn't even try. When he comes on the radio or television I shut him off. As someone said yesterday, it's sad because there's so little patriots coverage as it is.

I was psyched when Felger first started his radio show, thinking we'd here more football talk. But the more I listen lately, the more I want to turn it off. It's just too negative.

Excellent post, Belichikaholic.

This is a good concise summation of why Borges' comparison of DB's to BB's situations is shameless.

He is actively spreading misinformation if he continues to propogate this comparison.

The only way the comparison becomes real is if the Patriots force Branch to play with 20 pound weights around his ankles in his pre-FA year to make him look bad.

 

[Urgent]

It's important to note the factual problems with the numbers.

In this email, Borges compares the Patriots three-year offer to the offers from the Jets and Vikings.

In print, he has referred to the Jets and Vikings offers as '30% larger.'

The facts, as far as we know them:
The Patriots made two offers to a player under contract:
Three-years, $19mm, $8mm guaranteed
Five years, $31mm, $11mm guaranteed

The Jets and Vikings reportedly made identical offers:
Six years, $39mm, $13mm guaranteed

Now, even if you play with the data and convert the Patriots five-year $31mm offer into a six-year $32mm offer, that's a 21% bump, not 30%. And looking at the guaranteed money, that's $12mm Pats ($11mm new, plus $1mm guaranteed 2006) vs. $13mm open market, or an 8% bump. Given that the reports on the outyear salaries was 'funky' it might be safer to look at the guaranteed money.

Further, the context is different: one team (Pats) are offering an extension to a player under contract, 31 teams (including Vikings and Jets) are offering open market free agency deals.

That 29 teams failed to make any offers above the Patriots is interesting. That one of the offers is from a divisional rival is also interesting. That both offers included compensation that was certain to be declined was more interesting.

If Deion Branch received offers guaranteeing an 8% increase in compensation on the open market, you can assume that the Patriots offer was at least in the ballpark.

Borges seems to be misrepresenting the facts when he claims a 30% increase.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

http://www.patsfans.com/price/blog/?q=node/283

Quote:
Q: There were reports that it was a four-year deal that would average between seven and eight million per season. Is that accurate?
RS: Hey, that's the report.

Q: Will you say what the actual contract was or is?
RS: Well, I think that's pretty accurate."

Since Richard Seymour considers his 3-year extension a 4-year deal averaging between seven and eight million per season, it is a reasonable position to consider a 3-year extension a 4-year deal and use 4 years to average out the worth of the deal.


Most deals are evaluated by how much money the player gets in the 1st 3 years of the deal.

In 2006/2007/2008 Branch would have gotten 14.945 million from the Pats.
From most reports Branch would have gotten $23 million in 2006/2007/2008 from the Seahawks/Jets.

When the NFLPA.org publishes their research documents, their APY is an average of the player's total cap number over the life of the entire deal, not just the extension.

Footnote - This was Mike Reiss' report.
`
The breakdown in talks traces to May, when the Patriots attempted to spark negotiations by offering Branch a contract extension through 2009. The offer included a $4 million signing bonus and $4 million option bonus payable in 2007. Branch's base salary for 2006 would be $1.045 million, followed by salaries of $1.4 million in 2007, $4.3 million in 2008, and $4.75 million in 2009. The deal also included workout bonuses of $300,000. Over the four years of the deal, Branch would be paid just shy of $5 million per year. Assessing only the three years added to the original contract, plus bonus money, Branch would be averaging about $6.25 million per year.

Looking at the contract over a four-year period (2006-09), Branch would be tied for 17th among NFL receivers in average salary per year with Washington's Santana Moss, St. Louis's Isaac Bruce, and Dallas's Terry Glenn. Focusing solely on the three years added to the original contract (2007-09), Branch would rank 13th in average salary per year, between Pittsburgh's Hines Ward (12th) and Miami's Chris Chambers and Denver's Rod Smith (tied for 14th). Currently, Branch's base salary ranks him 44th among NFL receivers (all rankings are as of the beginning of July) .

Dragging Seymour into the argument just proves that players with contractual seasons remaining on their rookie deals understand that they will not pull down the splashy AAV touted in their new top dollar extensions when you factor that in. Even if you are arguably the best DLineman in the league and a multiple pro bowler. Just like John Abraham and Shaun Alexander understood that absent a willingness to accept that fact you were going to be expected to play out the final season of your rookie deal and probably deal with a tagging or two if you expected to ever become truly unrestricted. Although the difference in those cases is the players likely had savvy and cooperative agents who understood it was his job to guide them through the process with as little strife and potential collateral damage as possible.

The point of this thread is that the exchange between Ron and fggsand is just further proof that while the real Ron Borges, who now hides behind the shell of an angry shill image he boxed himself into because of his own opinionated mis-steps with and mis-reading of the Belioli regime from day one knows better, he cannot resist the impulse to get off a flurry of meaningless body shots on his perceived opponent at any and every opportunity. I guarantee you that deep down inside Ron thinks Deion is a greedy little twig with a case of overblown ego and his pit bull pup agent is a self absorbed wannabe. And if they were trying to pull this crap on Al Davis in his prime he'd have wiped the floor with them and saved the league. But since they represent a thorn in Bill Belichick's side he will do whatever he can to facilitate their cause. And when all is said and done Ron will maintain deniability for the small role he will say he played in all this because he was just reporting a story.

And those who will simply point to the fairly obvious $6M difference in the offers Deion received from his suitors last week versus what the Patriots placed on the table three months ago need to keep two things in mind: Chayut was willing to negotiate with NY and Seattle, a courtesy he was not willing to extend to the team who holds his rights, and as Miguel always says the first reports of a contract are usually misleading and overstated agent spin and until we or an independent source gets to see and analyze the structure and terms in detail it's difficult to assess what any of these offers truly represents.

And from what I can gather the only difference between the offers is the eagerness of two young and inexperienced GM's to pass on the value inherent in that remaining year which, coupled with the inexperience of a young agent not appreciating it had to be accounted for in order to facilitate any trade. Had those parties accounted for it that would have been the justification for offering commensurate compensation the Patriots might well have accepted. But it also would have lowered their compensation packages accordingly unless they were willing to do a public bend over. In my book that makes those offers worthless and just confirms the fact that the Patriots offer to Deion "as is" were right where they should have been. Just like the half dozen or so more experienced GM's who considered kicking his tires concluded before wasting their or the Patriots time.

 

[kolbitr]

I'm disappointed by many of the responses on this thread.

Folks, Borges is peddling rank innaccuracies here and all you can do is comment on his grammar?????

Kinda like basing all one's criticisms regarding Peyton Manning on his hairstyle.

There's enough meat with the (lack of) truth in what Borges is peddling. Focusing on his grammar and ignoring his falsehoods allows him to get away with it.

Fine. But I suspect that there is enough room in the thread for those who are capable of nailing him for the inaccuracies, and for those who chuckle at seeing a direct connection between his sloppy thinking and his sloppy writing. As well as those of us who couldn't pass up the chance to note that his preference for breeches reveals him for as a cannon's ass.

 

[Patjew]

Fine. But I suspect that there is enough room in the thread for those who are capable of nailing him for the inaccuracies, and for those who chuckle at seeing a direct connection between his sloppy thinking and his sloppy writing. As well as those of us who couldn't pass up the chance to note that his preference for breeches reveals him for as a cannon's ass.

Agree. For a writer, Borges is a teriible writer.

 

[Bostonian1962]

It's important to note the factual problems with the numbers.

In this email, Borges compares the Patriots three-year offer to the offers from the Jets and Vikings.

In print, he has referred to the Jets and Vikings offers as '30% larger.'

The facts, as far as we know them:
The Patriots made two offers to a player under contract:
Three-years, $19mm, $8mm guaranteed
Five years, $31mm, $11mm guaranteed

The Jets and Vikings reportedly made identical offers:
Six years, $39mm, $13mm guaranteed

Now, even if you play with the data and convert the Patriots five-year $31mm offer into a six-year $32mm offer, that's a 21% bump, not 30%. And looking at the guaranteed money, that's $12mm Pats ($11mm new, plus $1mm guaranteed 2006) vs. $13mm open market, or an 8% bump. Given that the reports on the outyear salaries was 'funky' it might be safer to look at the guaranteed money.

Further, the context is different: one team (Pats) are offering an extension to a player under contract, 31 teams (including Vikings and Jets) are offering open market free agency deals.

That 29 teams failed to make any offers above the Patriots is interesting. That one of the offers is from a divisional rival is also interesting. That both offers included compensation that was certain to be declined was more interesting.

If Deion Branch received offers guaranteeing an 8% increase in compensation on the open market, you can assume that the Patriots offer was at least in the ballpark.

Borges seems to be misrepresenting the facts when he claims a 30% increase.

Nice post, but I think Borges is even more out of wack than your math indicates. If the Patriots offered 5 yrs/$31M, than why are you converting to 6 years/$32M? At that rate per year, it would convert to $37.2M, which equates to 5% less than the $39M offer.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Well, of course no two situations are exactly the same, but there are reasonable parallels between Deions and BB's.

No there aren't. Coaches and players: apples and oranges. BB was NOT the HC of the Jets when the Pats asked permission to court BB. Since Parcells couldn't block an upward move, he immediately "retired" as HC of the Jets out of spite for the Krafts, in order to kick in the clause that contractually made BB the HC of the Jets. Then Tuna extracted a 1st round pick from the Pats, which was an act of vengeance for when Kraft did same to the Jets in 1997. Only Kraft was right to do so. The 1996 Jets finished 1-15, a league worst. Yet, by SB week, the Jets were the only team not to have a HC. Rumors were flying and Bob Kraft put 2 and 2 together and got wind of what Parcells and the Jets were doing. Kraft made a press announcement that Parcells was under contract for 1997. The Jets got nervous and Parcells panicked and leaked a story to his pal, Will McDonough stating that he was gone after the SB. Never mind what this did to the team. According to Patriot Reign Parcells had phone records to Hempstead, NY (Jets HQ) during SB week. What Parcells did that week, was one of the ultimate scumbag moves in sports.

There were many reasons, all good, that were brought up in other posts, as to why BB wanted out of NYJ. But some things Borges conveniently leaves out is that BB has a great track record with his assistant coaches. Parcells dragged BB through the mud and embarrassed the guy, the same guy who, in 1997, was willing to play the fool in a dog and pony show in front of the national media, while Parcells was on a speaker phone claiming to be a "consultant". When BB was offered the Pats job, a job Parcells always coveted, Parcells stood in BB's way. In 1987, Parcells tried to weasel out of his Giants HC job to go to Atlanta, by claiming that the Falcons had offered him a HC and GM position. The Commish refused to allow the move.

Bottom line: There's the spirit of the law and there's the letter of the law. In BB's case, Parcells acted maliciously. In Meion's case, the Pats offered what they consider to be what Branch is worth based on his production. If the team caves in any way, it would open the way to other players to do same. Branch was under contract and the Pats have named their price (2 #1s). I'm sure that this is subject to negotiation. If Seatlle comes up with a #1 and a midround pick, and the Pats accept, then all sides are happy.

 

[smc0822]

As for breeching of contracts, the guy you wish i respected more BEGAN his head coaching career here in New England by breeching his contract with the Jets. he then refused to go to work and kept $1 M bonus the late Leon Hess gave him a year earlier to stay and take over for Parcells when he retired from coaching. The Commissioner stepped in and it cost NE several high draft choices to get him out of the contract. When someone comes through the door by breeching his contract it seems a bit much to me to hear him or anyone in the organization talking about someone else doing the same thing.
No?



A couple of things: The commissioner deteremined the compensation for Parcells, not Belichick. Parcells and Kraft"buried the Hatchet" and worked out the draft picks. That Leon Hess paid BB $1 million to take over for Parcells is disinformation. Belichick was a hot commodity the year prior and the bonus was to keep him with the Jets for the final year of Parcells tenure. Otherwise he would have left the prior year.