BGC 2025 OL/PTP Thread

[mayoclinic]

I see this one fairly simply: Simmons >> Conerly > everyone else as far as LT prospects in this class go.

I consider Simmons a top 5 talent at a position of extreme need, so if his medicals check out I would take him at #4, or with a slight trade down if possible. I believe he will be a top 16 pick.

I would do this even if Hunter or Carter are available at #4 (would greatly increase trade down options to acquire more draft capital, though).

I do not consider any other OL worth a top 10 pick.

My worst draft nightmare: the Pats take Campbell @ #4, and the Chiefs trade up to get Simmons. A not-impossible case of bad teams reaching for need and good teams being bold.

 

[AQPE]

@mayoclinic and @BaconGrundleCandy, great to have you back on board.

I think that if Simmons’ medicals check out he won’t make it past San Francisco, more likely Chicago grabs him, Miami as well is a distinct possibility. I don’t the Chiefs won’t be able to get up there. That’s a pretty large “if” for a big guy with a patellar tendon injury. Again if he’s OK I would be 100% OK to see him here, and even if it meant a one year bridge to him if Vrabel and Marrone et. al. made that choice I’ll be waving the pom poms about it.

I am sticking with my prediction from before the combine, Campbell, Banks, Membou, Simmons, and Conerly will be gone on Day 1, in some order. I get your points on Campbell, I’m far more open to him but don’t love him, but have not found your arguments in favor of the others particularly compelling. I would have loved to see you guys take the same critical perspective on the rest of them. You’ve made your thoughts clear on Campbell but not on why Simmons or Conerly is superior in your view to Membou or Banks.

 

[mayoclinic]

AQPE, I also predict that all 5 will go Day 1, along with IOL Grey Zabel. I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2 other OLs sneak in. Teams are desperate for OL help, and prize it. At least a dozen teams could consider an OL in round 1.

Will Campbell is a great kid, experienced, competitive, driven, scrappy, intelligent, athletic. Those qualities have taken him a long way. But when I watch film of him, it terrifies me. His stance is all wrong, he leads with his feet, he plays way too upright, he has a narrow base, and his narrow shoulders, short arms and limited wingspan make him vulnerable. He makes up for this on the college level through grit, tenacity, and athleticism - he moves his feet well to compensate for the above deficiencies, and as long as he stays in front of his man he is seldom dominated. But at the pro level I worry that these deficiencies will be exposed and he will get DESTROYED. I could see him being another Robert Gallery. I also worry that his upright stance and narrow base may limit him at guard. He is just so damn narrow and upright, it feels all wrong to me. That's the best way I can describe it - he looks all wrong to me, even when he has a good rep.

When I look at film of Josh Simmons, I see a totally different beast. Simmons has a much wider base, he sinks his hips naturally and beautifully. His stance is the opposite of Campbell's, low and grounded. His footwork is great and he is constantly in position. He has bigger hands, and uses his wide base and strong punch to throw opponents off balance. He could use a little more aggression and finish at times, but there is just so much to work with. He looks so natural at the position.

Every player is unique, good ones understand their physical strengths and weaknesses. There is clearly more than one way to succeed. But I am very concerned that Campbell's limitations will hinder his success at LT at the next level, and I think the media hype train is way overselling him as a top 10 pick.

Just my 2 cents.

Will try to offer some thoughts on Conerly, Banks and Membou later.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I see this one fairly simply: Simmons >> Conerly > everyone else as far as LT prospects in this class go.

I consider Simmons a top 5 talent at a position of extreme need, so if his medicals check out I would take him at #4, or with a slight trade down if possible. I believe he will be a top 16 pick.

I would do this even if Hunter or Carter are available at #4 (would greatly increase trade down options to acquire more draft capital, though).

I do not consider any other OL worth a top 10 pick.

My worst draft nightmare: the Pats take Campbell @ #4, and the Chiefs trade up to get Simmons. A not-impossible case of bad teams reaching for need and good teams being bold.

I've been on record saying the same. Simmons and Conerly will be as good if not better than Campbell. And that's how I would approach it if I'm going OL first. I would consider Membou. There are maturity issues with a lot of these guys but that's how I would approach it.

I don't see Simmons getting past the 20th pick and don't think Conerly will be far behind.

 

[mayoclinic]

Josh Conerly for me is somewhere between a more athletic Matt Light and a lesser version of Rashawn Slater. Slightly undersized, but decent length and hand size, good feet, pretty athletic. Needs to get stronger. Probably won't be a perennial pro bowl LT, but I think he can lock that side down at a solid level for a decade. Besides Simmons, he's the only guy I'm confident can be a quality starting LT pretty shortly out of the gate. After that I go to Charles Grant, who will jeed development.

 

[Rdforty2]

AQPE, I also predict that all 5 will go Day 1, along with IOL Grey Zabel. I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2 other OLs sneak in. Teams are desperate for OL help, and prize it. At least a dozen teams could consider an OL in round 1.

Will Campbell is a great kid, experienced, competitive, driven, scrappy, intelligent, athletic. Those qualities have taken him a long way. But when I watch film of him, it terrifies me. His stance is all wrong, he leads with his feet, he plays way too upright, he has a narrow base, and his narrow shoulders, short arms and limited wingspan make him vulnerable. He makes up for this on the college level through grit, tenacity, and athleticism - he moves his feet well to compensate for the above deficiencies, and as long as he stays in front of his man he is seldom dominated. But at the pro level I worry that these deficiencies will be exposed and he will get DESTROYED. I could see him being another Robert Gallery. I also worry that his upright stance and narrow base may limit him at guard. He is just so damn narrow and upright, it feels all wrong to me. That's the best way I can describe it - he looks all wrong to me, even when he has a good rep.

When I look at film of Josh Simmons, I see a totally different beast. Simmons has a much wider base, he sinks his hips naturally and beautifully. His stance is the opposite of Campbell's, low and grounded. His footwork is great and he is constantly in position. He has bigger hands, and uses his wide base and strong punch to throw opponents off balance. He could use a little more aggression and finish at times, but there is just so much to work with. He looks so natural at the position.

Every player is unique, good ones understand their physical strengths and weaknesses. There is clearly more than one way to succeed. But I am very concerned that Campbell's limitations will hinder his success at LT at the next level, and I think the media hype train is way overselling him as a top 10 pick.

Just my 2 cents.

Will try to offer some thoughts on Conerly, Banks and Membou later.

I think most would agree on Simmons. The problem is the small sample size, 1. But more importantly, 2, the injury. We just have no idea where he's at, but the history of that time if injury is concerning. Drafting Simmons may not solve left tackle. It's unfortunate, but its the reality of the situation. If he didn't get injured and he finished the season as the starter, he could be the clear and easy pick at 4. But thats not the case.

As for Campbell, technique can be cleaned up and changed. Mike Tice also said he doesn't like the high stance either. But he also said some coaches teach that. I'm not saying you(or even specifically on this board, im talking "experts"), but some have pointed out Membou's age and he has a lot of room for growth. Campbell(and Banks for that matter), also just had their 21st birthday in 2025. They're all pups. All have room to grow. The thing that stands out for Campbell is that he has still excelled at left tackle despite his flaws. The size is there. The athleticism is there. The natural strength is there. And then he has every possible intangible you could want. You've even seen people mention he could possibly play center because hes so intelligent and sees things so well. That's why he's OT1 for me.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

@mayoclinic and @BaconGrundleCandy, great to have you back on board.

I think that if Simmons’ medicals check out he won’t make it past San Francisco, more likely Chicago grabs him, Miami as well is a distinct possibility. I don’t the Chiefs won’t be able to get up there. That’s a pretty large “if” for a big guy with a patellar tendon injury. Again if he’s OK I would be 100% OK to see him here, and even if it meant a one year bridge to him if Vrabel and Marrone et. al. made that choice I’ll be waving the pom poms about it.

I am sticking with my prediction from before the combine, Campbell, Banks, Membou, Simmons, and Conerly will be gone on Day 1, in some order. I get your points on Campbell, I’m far more open to him but don’t love him, but have not found your arguments in favor of the others particularly compelling. I would have loved to see you guys take the same critical perspective on the rest of them. You’ve made your thoughts clear on Campbell but not on why Simmons or Conerly is superior in your view to Membou or Banks.

reminder I

@mayoclinic and @BaconGrundleCandy, great to have you back on board.

I think that if Simmons’ medicals check out he won’t make it past San Francisco, more likely Chicago grabs him, Miami as well is a distinct possibility. I don’t the Chiefs won’t be able to get up there. That’s a pretty large “if” for a big guy with a patellar tendon injury. Again if he’s OK I would be 100% OK to see him here, and even if it meant a one year bridge to him if Vrabel and Marrone et. al. made that choice I’ll be waving the pom poms about it.

I am sticking with my prediction from before the combine, Campbell, Banks, Membou, Simmons, and Conerly will be gone on Day 1, in some order. I get your points on Campbell, I’m far more open to him but don’t love him, but have not found your arguments in favor of the others particularly compelling. I would have loved to see you guys take the same critical perspective on the rest of them. You’ve made your thoughts clear on Campbell but not on why Simmons or Conerly is superior in your view to Membou or Banks.

Reminder I have most of the top consensus guys written in the first page. Or maybe I'm missing something bc I'm dumb. Just ask @AQPE

If we're good with Simmons meds I would go him > Campbell. I'm working on my ptp board now and basically how I would handle 4.

 

[AQPE]

reminder I

Reminder I have most of the top consensus guys written in the first page. Or maybe I'm missing something bc I'm dumb. Just ask @AQPE

If we're good with Simmons meds I would go him > Campbell. I'm working on my ptp board now and basically how I would handle 4.

My apologies if my criticism came across as questioning your intellect. I certainly don’t feel that way, I respect your contributions to the forum over the course of many years, and the quite unique level of detail in your many analyses including the opening post in this thread.

I’m probably the dumb one here in not grasping why Simmons and Conerly are in your and many others opinions appreciably superior as LT1 prospects in comparison to Campbell and the others. I enjoy watching whatever I can and see a lot of the attributes that you and others have expressed about those two guys, my challenge is in seeing how their attributes are evidently superior to ones I’ve observed with Campbell, Membou, and Banks.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Josh Conerly for me is somewhere between a more athletic Matt Light and a lesser version of Rashawn Slater. Slightly undersized, but decent length and hand size, good feet, pretty athletic. Needs to get stronger. Probably won't be a perennial pro bowl LT, but I think he can lock that side down at a solid level for a decade. Besides Simmons, he's the only guy I'm confident can be a quality starting LT pretty shortly out of the gate. After that I go to Charles Grant, who will jeed development.

If Tampa or Steelers want to trade down I am calling them if conerly is still there no matter what we selected with our first pick, I think giving up something like 2025 2d, 3d and 2026 4th pick would be worth it

 

[mayoclinic]

Armand Membou for me is RT only. He's big, powerful, and explosive, but I don't see the lateral mobility and footwork ro move to LT. Overhyped because of his RAS score and 40 time. Good run blocker, Mizzou's offensive scheme did not allow him a ton of experience in pro pass sets. I think he'd be a day 1 starter at OG, but he'll need a lot of technical development at OT, and I really don't think he'd do well at LT, hence I rate Conerly higher.

Banks for me would be #3 after Simmons and Conerly, but he isn't that athletic. He's ok, but both agility and explosiveness seem limited. I'd be ok with him, but personally I'd rather go with Charles Grant, who I think has much more upside.

 

[mayoclinic]

I should also mention that I really like Donovan Jackson. He over-achieved at LT and got much better against top competition. I'd rather go BPA @ 4 + Jackson @ 38 (or a very small trade up) than Campbell @ 4 + BPA @ 38. I think Jackson could upgrade LT day 1 as a stopgap, and eventually move to LG. I would consider him at 38 even if the Pats took Simmons in the 1st.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

I should also mention that I really like Donovan Jackson. He over-achieved at LT and got much better against top competition. I'd rather go BPA @ 4 + Jackson @ 38 (or a very small trade up) than Campbell @ 4 + BPA @ 38. I think Jackson could upgrade LT day 1 as a stopgap, and eventually move to LG. I would consider him at 38 even if the Pats took Simmons in the 1st.

fwiw Jackson posted poor pass blocking grades during his time at LT , I have serious doubts that he can play T , if we move strange to c he would make a great Lg tough

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

My apologies if my criticism came across as questioning your intellect. I certainly don’t feel that way, I respect your contributions to the forum over the course of many years, and the quite unique level of detail in your many analyses including the opening post in this thread.

Not honestly I didn't take it like that at all. I'm just not the brightest bulb and didn't quite understand what you were getting at, at first. Sorry was kinda busy yesterday and absolutely 1000@% will have a solid ptp board this afternoon @Mark Morse

I’m probably the dumb one here in not grasping why Simmons and Conerly are in your and many others opinions appreciably superior as LT1 prospects in comparison to Campbell and the others. I enjoy watching whatever I can and see a lot of the attributes that you and others have expressed about those two guys, my challenge is in seeing how their attributes are evidently superior to ones I’ve observed with Campbell, Membou, and Banks.

So Simmons is my OT1 and would be on everyone's board if not for medicals. There are more "questions" in terms of his medicals and how he'll be after 6 months, after 1 year in the NFL. As opposed to real concerns with his game as a prospect imo. As I said on page 1 most of these guys (top tackles) have character concerns or real questions surrounding how they'll adapt to NFL coaching and the way things are don't next level.

Him and Conerly are the best at getting vertical, flat or getting to a 45 set. Very smooth never look like they're working hard. You want guy that works hard but doesn't look like he's working hard on the field (you see Campbell really working his ass off a lot). He's very sudden and quick with his movements especially his initial slide. He plays with independent hands. Big paws with multiple strike variations to fight off defenders. Plus grip strength. Different types of strikes with good pop, uses the snatch/trap very well. Uses feints very well. He's got mirror ability bc of his movement skills and footwork. He's got better footwork than Campbell along with everything I listed above. The Ravens were excellent at creating # advantages up front with their lineman and obviously Lamar (Sony won us a SB, Sony = SB - I have to lie to myself every time) but he was really the weapon used to kill you. The mismatch in a #'s game really came from their oline. Guys who were able to initially impede the guy across from them at the los before making a play on the backside. Simmons is that guy. Plays with one of the better drag hands in the class. As a run blocker he's as versatile as it gets. Doesnt matter which scheme. He'll excel in it. He's got power, torque, body control, flexibility. The ability to take care of business at the los before climbing effortlessly to the 2nd and 3rd levels.

If his medicals are good enough for us and there's a report just posted he's good to go. And you're set in drafting a tackle. He's the guy > Campbell. Imo there's not much if anything, especially significant. That Campbell does better. Lastly Campbell has certainly improved year to year no doubt but Simmons was set to take a huge jump this year if not for his injury. His trajectory was soaring whereas Campbell was more or less the same guy. Not a bad thing bc Campbell is a hell of a prospect buy in terms of where the arrow is pointing Simmons was soaring up.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Sorry tried posting last night and today but finishing up my schooling for the year for my apprenticeship. No phones in the building from 7-3. Ugh never ends. Anyway I didn't take offense to anything I have thick skin and like the back n forth. That's a big reason why we're here.

 

[Mark Morse]

Armand Membou for me is RT only. He's big, powerful, and explosive, but I don't see the lateral mobility and footwork ro move to LT. Overhyped because of his RAS score and 40 time. Good run blocker, Mizzou's offensive scheme did not allow him a ton of experience in pro pass sets. I think he'd be a day 1 starter at OG, but he'll need a lot of technical development at OT, and I really don't think he'd do well at LT, hence I rate Conerly higher.

Banks for me would be #3 after Simmons and Conerly, but he isn't that athletic. He's ok, but both agility and explosiveness seem limited. I'd be ok with him, but personally I'd rather go with Charles Grant, who I think has much more upside.

I think Membou getting sick at the Senior Bowl really hurt his chance to be the #1 Tackle off the board. At the Senior Bowl the coaches force the linemen to take some reps on their opposite sides to see if they can play both sides. Membou didn't move to Left Tackle at Missouri because they signed Marcus Bryant in the transfer portal. Bryant was All-AAC Left Tackle at SMU. The word from the scouts at the Senior Bowl was that Membou was wretchedly sick, and his bowing out was legitimate.

 

[Rdforty2]

I think Membou getting sick at the Senior Bowl really hurt his chance to be the #1 Tackle off the board. At the Senior Bowl the coaches force the linemen to take some reps on their opposite sides to see if they can play both sides. Membou didn't move to Left Tackle at Missouri because they signed Marcus Bryant in the transfer portal. Bryant was All-AAC Left Tackle at SMU. The word from the scouts at the Senior Bowl was that Membou was wretchedly sick, and his bowing out was legitimate.

There's definitely nothing to disagree with in your post.

Just to add to it, though. Duke Manyweather trained both Campbell and Membou. He cross trains them at different positions to get them ready for the league. He thinks Membou is a RT. Thata a guy who's trained both and worked at various spots to come to thst conclusion so I think its worth mentioning.

We can all speculate it's odd Membou with his athleticism never took a snap at LT. That the team had to go to the portal for a LT when they had such a freak already in the program. Membou wasn't even in the battle for the LT job, as Bryant battled a JC transfer for the job. You'd think they'd put that NIL money elsewhere, if they had the LT answer already. But thats just speculation without knowing. But Manyweather's comments are worth considering.

If the Patriots think Membou can be the guy, I will put faith in them. This isn't a first year HC with a 1st year OL coach. Vrabel knows what he wants. Marrone knows what he's doing. And I also think McDaniels experience and what they're looking for helps. I have a lot more faith in their OL drafting than last years group effort.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

More I read, the less I’m taking any of the tackles of we have to pick at #4. Literally all of them have something wrong.

Just take BPA at 4 then try and grab one of the Tackles later.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think I would like us to get a playmaker at #4 and then trade up for Simmons in bottom of the 1st.

Just not in love with T-Rex arms for our left tackle!

Matt Light had 33.5" arms and Nate Solder had 35.5" arms just for comparison.

 

[Rdforty2]

I think I would like us to get a playmaker at #4 and then trade up for Simmons in bottom of the 1st.

Just not in love with T-Rex arms for our left tackle!

Matt Light had 33.5" arms and Nate Solder had 35.5" arms just for comparison.

Rayshawn Slater 33" arms.
Bernhard Raimann 32 7/8" arms
For Patriots nostalgia, Bruce Armstrong 32 3/4"

For comparison sake.

 

[pazrul72]

I think I would like us to get a playmaker at #4 and then trade up for Simmons in bottom of the 1st.

Just not in love with T-Rex arms for our left tackle!

Matt Light had 33.5" arms and Nate Solder had 35.5" arms just for comparison.

People get WAY too caught up on arm length, its wingspan IMO thats actually important, and then only if it shows up on tape as an issue. Thats the actual issue with Campbell not some number he is a half of an inch below. Guys do get hands on him and force him off his spot and that will probably only get worse at the next level. Calling him t rex is just lazy