BGC 2025 OL/PTP Thread

[Water Boy]

Saying people are nitpicking or ignoring "his tape" are way more off than people actually doing their homework. I can tell you that with certainty.

There are plenty of experts who are good with his tape (Barth, Lazar, Jeremiah)

It's always a projection. Wynn might have had good tape, but what about his makeup and his ability to improve?

That's what worries me about Simmons.

Has Campbell reached his ceiling, or can his work ethic allow for improvement in footwork, etc? Are people overvaluing his mental make up and tenacity?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

If a team came to the Pats offering a trade down with their 1st and 2nd this year and a 1st or 2nd next year, it would be foolish to pass that up, It doesn't matter who is there at 4.

Idk it depends on who but you would be a good deal down in the draft this year. Also I care more about right now, this year a whole lot more than next year. We know how quickly you can F things up in this league. We really should be focused on what a new coach can do. Most turnarounds in this league come very quick with new coaches. Combined with Maye I want to make sure we hit a home run this year. Guys get hurt, have off years, transfer/nil bs ... Next years draft class will be a really good one or some of the above I mentioned might bite us, specifically. Who knows?

That said I would have already offered 4 & a 4th for AJ Brown and Phila 1st. Maybe we have who knows but I'm so open to something like that. I'm hoping we offered our 2nd for DK and got turned? We need to be a little more aggressive on that front imo.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

There are plenty of experts who are good with his tape (Barth, Lazar, Jeremiah)

It's always a projection. Wynn might have had good tape, but what about his makeup and his ability to improve?

That's what worries me about Simmons.

Has Campbell reached his ceiling, or can his work ethic allow for improvement in footwork, etc? Are people overvaluing his mental make up and tenacity?

I would definitely not call Lazar or Barth experts. Nor should anyone.

I consider Thorn, Lance Z and Mike Tice experts. They are 247 and have it in their blood. Those two are not. That's not being rude either. That's a low bar when you consider the above mentioned my friend. Thorn & Co live and breath OL. The other two are guys filling a cycle. They're not as good as me and I'm not an expert.

I think Campbell could be a top 15ish tackle in the league if he hits his ceiling. I have a 1st on him as a guard and don't really care about where I list him. I'm not a coach he'll definitely get a shot to play tackle. He should. It wouldn't surprise me if he was slightly above average. I just would invest elsewhere when we consider value, tape and traits. That's what I do. I think I can get a better or comparable tackle with a top 30-50 pick. I would rather take a shot with Simmons, Conerly, Ozzy or even Grant. Depending on where I can get him and a few others.

I don't hate Campbell at all I just don't think he's a lottery pick or as good as others that will definitely be available.

 

[DaBruinz]

Idk it depends on who but you would be a good deal down in the draft this year. Also I care more about right now, this year a whole lot more than next year. We know how quickly you can F things up in this league. We really should be focused on what a new coach can do. Most turnarounds in this league come very quick with new coaches. Combined with Maye I want to make sure we hit a home run this year. Guys get hurt, have off years, transfer/nil bs ... Next years draft class will be a really good one or some of the above I mentioned might bite us, specifically. Who knows?

That said I would have already offered 4 & a 4th for AJ Brown and Phila 1st. Maybe we have who knows but I'm so open to something like that. I'm hoping we offered our 2nd for DK and got turned? We need to be a little more aggressive on that front imo.

OK. Who are you and what have you done with the REAL BGC?

AJ Brown was NEVER being traded. Philly wasn't going to take an additional $42M cap hit to make that sort of trade. Metcalf stated he wanted nothing to do with New England. He seems to think it's colder in New England than in Pittsburgh.

Next, a WR isn't magically going to tun the team around. AJ Brown is good, but he's no Randy Moss, Jerry Rice or Michael Irvin.
I disagree that a trade back would put the Pats "a good deal down" in the 1st round.

I AM focused on what the new coach is doing. Vrabel's addressed the defense quite heavily in Free Agency mainly because there were a number of Free Agents that fit his system there. He's insisted on some strategic signings on the Offense in terms of Moses and Schweitzer. I say strategic because both are older guys but have the attitude that the Pats want to instill on the O-line.

If you want to "hit a home run" this year, you don't do it by adding guys in the draft who are only marginally better than the talent behind them. You add as many young players who you believe are going to be 8-10yr players who can carry the mantle for team dynamic your implementing.

If it's a choice between Hunter or Graham and adding 2 guys this year and another next year, I'm taking the 3 for 1 every day. Because neither Hunter nor Graham are that far ahead of the other talents. And I don't see either of them being a player that just takes over games.

 

[patrickscribe]

HOF LT Joe Thomas was on Cleveland radio this morning and was asked about the Will Cambell arm measurement. He scoffed at it and said arm measurement is something to bring up whe you don't have other bad things to say. He said the arm measurements are weird and that long or short fingers can make a difference in the measurement, but not in punching ability. A big length difference might help "if it's 10 inches or something" (if I remember right) but other things matter much more.

I will post a link if I can find one of that segment.

Will add this in a couple threads since it is a pretty expert view from a thoughtful ex-player. I didn't hear him say anything about tackle vs guard or where Campbell should be drafed.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Mike Tice

Not sure if this has been posted - Tice is very high on Simmons, and kind of lukewarm on Campbell (has him ranked a bit lower than Membou and Banks). Not sure if Membou can cope with smaller, quicker guys.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I in

Not sure if this has been posted - Tice is very high on Simmons, and kind of lukewarm on Campbell (has him ranked a bit lower than Membou and Banks). Not sure if Membou can cope with smaller, quicker guys.

Nice listen. Thanks. Mike Tice loves Simmons, but how is that knee? Not so high on Campbell.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

OK. Who are you and what have you done with the REAL BGC?

AJ Brown was NEVER being traded. Philly wasn't going to take an additional $42M cap hit to make that sort of trade. Metcalf stated he wanted nothing to do with New England. He seems to think it's colder in New England than in Pittsburgh.

Yes it would be a big hit in the short-term but stranger things have happened. This is Howie we're talking about. He's been here before and came out ahead.

Also if you look at that contract and Im sure you have. I believe its 31M dead money before June 1st and post June 1st that 31M would be split into 2026 (10 in 25 and 21 in 26 or something close to that).
Something is going to have to give after next year. NFL players dont like playing with no guaranteed money on their deals. Something will happen by 26/27, which is a ways away in the NFL world, I know but that will be an issue. And theres already been some friction there. So again stranger things have happened. It's a long shot sure but my big point is we need to more aggressive when it comes to this stuff. I don't care if DK didn't want to be here. I'm just hoping we offered our 2nd RD and did everything we could.

Next, a WR isn't magically going to tun the team around. AJ Brown is good, but he's no Randy Moss, Jerry Rice or Michael Irvin.

There's a group of posters here who downplay the WR position and it's almost embarrassing considering the importance a WR1 has on the field vs dc's, to a young QB and your scoring/offense. There's too much evidence to ignore. No position is magically turning a poor team around. That's a silly thing to argue with respect. No is saying 1 player will transform your team. That said tere's too much evidence to ignore in terms of what a WR1 can do for a QB. And when you look at scoring offenses - points, yards etc it's plain to see what a top tier duo can do.

Comparing Brown to Moss & Rice isnt fair. There probably will never be a WR thats better than both but AJ Brown is already better imo if not he's absolutely on Irvin's level in terms of quality of WR.

I disagree that a trade back would put the Pats "a good deal down" in the 1st round.

If someone is giving us a 1st & 2nd this year and either a 1st or 2nd next year (I would prefer 27) we're moving outside the top 10 and that's a "good deal down" from 4 anyway you cut it.

I AM focused on what the new coach is doing. Vrabel's addressed the defense quite heavily in Free Agency mainly because there were a number of Free Agents that fit his system there. He's insisted on some strategic signings on the Offense in terms of Moses and Schweitzer. I say strategic because both are older guys but have the attitude that the Pats want to instill on the O-line.

I like a lot if what we've done tbh. Really like the Williams and Davis signings. I think if Barmore is back at even 80% we have the stuff there for a top 10ish D. I like both OL above esp Moses.

If it's a choice between Hunter or Graham and adding 2 guys this year and another next year, I'm taking the 3 for 1 every day. Because neither Hunter nor Graham are that far ahead of the other talents. And I don't see either of them being a player that just takes over games.

I love Graham but yea hes not a lottery pick.

You're 100% wrong about Hunter though. Hes WR1 in this class and if he had another year to develop in college would be WR1 next year too. 27 is the next big year for WR. That said every WR class is pretty good bc of the talent out there. That said there's a considerable drop off after Hunter/Tet. Hunter is the only blue chip prospect in the draft. Passing on him would be a big mistake. He's a special prospect. You don't pass on special esp at a premium position and esp when you have a young QB who's ready to roll NOW. Not next year. I wouldn't pass on Hunter. He could be 80-90% of Antonio Brown without the crazy.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I in

Nice listen. Thanks. Mike Tice loves Simmons, but how is that knee? Not so high on Campbell.

Not sure if this has been posted - Tice is very high on Simmons, and kind of lukewarm on Campbell (has him ranked a bit lower than Membou and Banks). Not sure if Membou can cope with smaller, quicker guys.

I just want to follow up real quick and say (for the 100000X) it's not Campbell hate or "nitpicking" or we someone wants to call it. No serious evaluator(s) are discounting him solely on his arm length or wingspan. That's not how this works. His tape is littered with question marks for a guy you'll probably have to take top 5-8. I had a relatively high 2nd on Raimann for example. Someone who is a good example of what happens if Campbell hits every part of his potential. Raimann was a 3rd RD pick I believe.

I have to ignore the hype surrounding the draft and do my own thing. Which has worked out pretty well considering how hard it is to "win" at the draft. Ive always been a tape + traits that translate = value guy, in my own way. So much of the draft is mitigating risk. Campbell is an outlier in a few different ways. I'm not buying him top 10 when I have guys that will be there after him. I think will be just as good if not better.

Second I respect Lazar and Berth/Barth(I really have no idea who that is tbh I'm sure he's a nice guy) but both are guys that start watching tape at the last possible second to fill a cycle. Last I checked Lazar wasn't that great at this at all. He's got some general knowledge about football but he's not an expert on anything if we're keeping it a real and being honest. I'm sure he's had a few hits but no one goes to him for anything critical or specific. Again he's just filling a cycle, a tourist if you will who quickly leaves when the weather changes. That's his job but there are levels to this.

Thorn and LZ






Again this is a tough bet to make with a top 4 pick.

 

[upstater1]

One thing that's almost never mentioned and is as relevant as arm length is shoulder width. I read that Campbell does not have broad shoulders at all, and this compounds the arm length questions. If your shoulders are narrow that makes the lack of arm length an even bigger concern.

 

[bakes781]

One thing that's almost never mentioned and is as relevant as arm length is shoulder width. I read that Campbell does not have broad shoulders at all, and this compounds the arm length questions. If your shoulders are narrow that makes the lack of arm length and even bigger concern.

I could've told you that just from looking at him.

 

[AQPE]

I just want to follow up real quick and say (for the 100000X) it's not Campbell hate or "nitpicking" or we someone wants to call it. No serious evaluator(s) are discounting him solely on his arm length or wingspan. That's not how this works. His tape is littered with question marks for a guy you'll probably have to take top 5-8. I had a relatively high 2nd on Raimann for example. Someone who is a good example of what happens if Campbell hits every part of his potential. Raimann was a 3rd RD pick I believe.

I have to ignore the hype surrounding the draft and do my own thing. Which has worked out pretty well considering how hard it is to "win" at the draft. Ive always been a tape + traits that translate = value guy, in my own way. So much of the draft is mitigating risk. Campbell is an outlier in a few different ways. I'm not buying him top 10 when I have guys that will be there after him. I think will be just as good if not better.

Second I respect Lazar and Berth/Barth(I really have no idea who that is tbh I'm sure he's a nice guy) but both are guys that start watching tape at the last possible second to fill a cycle. Last I checked Lazar wasn't that great at this at all. He's got some general knowledge about football but he's not an expert on anything if we're keeping it a real and being honest. I'm sure he's had a few hits but no one goes to him for anything critical or specific. Again he's just filling a cycle, a tourist if you will who quickly leaves when the weather changes. That's his job but there are levels to this.

Thorn and LZ






Again this is a tough bet to make with a top 4 pick.

I hesitate to post this out of my great respect to you for the tons and tons of great content you’ve provided here for I think about 10 years here. Please accept this critique in that spirit.

I see you are frustrated here. One reason you are getting flak for this take is that you have not provided a similarly in depth take on Membou, Simmons, Banks, or Conerly. It comes across as a double standard, posting things that support your conclusion and not those that don’t, and disparaging some of the writers who have posted things supporting a different opinion. Comparing Raimann to Campbell requires completely ignoring their records going into the draft, damning Campbell with faint praise is not a winning argument. With all due respect to meathead Mike Tice who couldn’t get a draft pick in on time in the first round a few years back and who hasn’t gotten a sniff as a head coach, and apparently not as an OL coach lately, I’ll take Marrone’s opinion over his.

The bigger issue for us rubes is OK, if not Campbell at #4 then who, and if not an LT prospect there then how is that specific problem, which in many peoples opinion is the single most crucial issue with the current roster, getting addressed if at all in this draft? One bad injury to Maye could put this entire team back to square one this time next year, he got knocked out once already last year, they are playing with fire if they don’t have a legit LT to start this season. If we are omitting Campbell due to his flaws, why not the same attitude towards Membou, Simmons, Conerly, Banks, Ersery, Trapilo, Grant, Brown, and anyone else?

For the record I’d be fine with Membou at #4. I would probably be OK with Simmons also, most definitely not with Conerly or anyone else. I like Banks better than Conerly but other people I respect here see it the other way. I’m willing to wager a sizable percentage of us posters here would be fine with that too, but let’s not pretend that Membou doesn’t have serious questions and not just about switching from RT to LT. So far I don’t find the explanations to be compelling about why Mizzou kept the much more talented guy at RT, not just this past season but in his two other seasons as well. He had one snap at LG in his career, and a handful of snaps where he lined up to the left outside the regular LT. If he can be dominant at LT in the NFL, that record right there is hard to understand.

Regarding Simmons, I think if he stayed healthy this year he’d be the pick at #4 and maybe even in the top 3 but that injury was no joke at all and I can’t think of a lineman (OL or DL) that badly injured in college coming to the NFL and becoming a superstar, there probably have been some but I can’t think of any. He had one full year at LT, gave up one sack, did great on a loaded team (2023 OSU > 2023 LSU IMHO and yes I know who was at QB in 2023 for LSU). You also should ask why a LG played so damn well sliding over to LT to replace Simmons, it’s not a knock per se against Simmons but shows how loaded the 2024 OSU team was.

 

[bakes781]

The point is sadly it likely isn't getting addressed in this class. We've all been trying to waive the red flag with regards to this draft class. They failed to address it in FA despite having all that money to burn.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I hesitate to post this out of my great respect to you for the tons and tons of great content you’ve provided here for I think about 10 years here. Please accept this critique in that spirit.

I see you are frustrated here. One reason you are getting flak for this take is that you have not provided a similarly in depth take on Membou, Simmons, Banks, or Conerly. It comes across as a double standard, posting things that support your conclusion and not those that don’t, and disparaging some of the writers who have posted things supporting a different opinion. Comparing Raimann to Campbell requires completely ignoring their records going into the draft, damning Campbell with faint praise is not a winning argument. With all due respect to meathead Mike Tice who couldn’t get a draft pick in on time in the first round a few years back and who hasn’t gotten a sniff as a head coach, and apparently not as an OL coach lately, I’ll take Marrone’s opinion over his.

A)This isn't true at all lol. Did you not see my thoughts on Simmons and co on the 1st page!!!! I mean cmon man at least look at the 1st page bro. And for the record I'm not frustrated, upset, discontent or even perturbed amigo. In fact I made the 2nd post to try and show that it's certainly not hate. It's just business. Literally just business. And I won't back off from saying guys like Lazar and that other guy I've never heard of are certainly not experts lol.

B)What do you mean "their records going into the draft" .... like their team records?? That would be incredibly dumb and a waste of time. Please enlighten me on that. As prospects and athletes they're not far off at all. A lot of people had a 1st RD grade on BR. Again elaborate here please bc comparing Campbell to BR makes a ton of sense in different ways if you're being objective. Campbell's tape isn't that much better and again as athletes they're not far off.

C)Dragging Tice for his HC stints is fine but he's as knowledgeable on the position as Marrone is. And I could do the same with Marrone as a HC. You seriously think he didn't make any dumb mistakes or decisions over his time? You think any of his former teams are like "Man if only we had Doug back"? They're not lol. Not in NO or Jax or Buffalo where he left via a group text. Marrone doesn't have the track record when it comes to OL Tice does. I'm fine with him here but pretending he's got a step on Tice when it comes to OL isn't living in reality.

The bigger issue for us rubes is OK, if not Campbell at #4 then who, and if not an LT prospect there then how is that specific problem, which in many peoples opinion is the single most crucial issue with the current roster, getting addressed if at all in this draft? One bad injury to Maye could put this entire team back to square one this time next year, he got knocked out once already last year, they are playing with fire if they don’t have a legit LT to start this season. If we are omitting Campbell due to his flaws, why not the same attitude towards Membou, Simmons, Conerly, Banks, Ersery, Trapilo, Grant, Brown, and anyone else?

A)Most people don't understand OL to begin with. I don't need the best tackle. I need the best OL group and that group is only as strong as it's weakest link. Offensive line is about survival NOT "winning!" Offensive lineman don't WIN they SURVIVE! Few reasons are bc the person they're going up against is more athletic than them (common knowledge among anyone that coaxhes, studies OL) and the QB is directly responsible for so much.

B)Maye could get hurt any number of ways. You don't sit around and think about this stuff. It's not productive or useful. Especially for a young mobile QB. It's like worrying if the sun will come up. Yes Maye will probably get dinged up. It won't be bc we selected A as opposed to B in terms of prospects.

For the record I’d be fine with Membou at #4. I would probably be OK with Simmons also, most definitely not with Conerly or anyone else. I like Banks better than Conerly but other people I respect here see it the other way. I’m willing to wager a sizable percentage of us posters here would be fine with that too, but let’s not pretend that Membou doesn’t have serious questions and not just about switching from RT to LT. So far I don’t find the explanations to be compelling about why Mizzou kept the much more talented guy at RT, not just this past season but in his two other seasons as well. He had one snap at LG in his career, and a handful of snaps where he lined up to the left outside the regular LT. If he can be dominant at LT in the NFL, that record right there is hard to understand.

Regarding Simmons, I think if he stayed healthy this year he’d be the pick at #4 and maybe even in the top 3 but that injury was no joke at all and I can’t think of a lineman (OL or DL) that badly injured in college coming to the NFL and becoming a superstar, there probably have been some but I can’t think of any. He had one full year at LT, gave up one sack, did great on a loaded team (2023 OSU > 2023 LSU IMHO and yes I know who was at QB in 2023 for LSU). You also should ask why a LG played so damn well sliding over to LT to replace Simmons, it’s not a knock per se against Simmons but shows how loaded the 2024 OSU team was.

No one is admitting anyone's flaws. Again most of the top guys are written up page 1. This is the simplest question of them all though and elementary. Like so obvious it shouldn't be needed to be pointed out but I'll help you out. If you want Campbell you're going to have to spend a lottery pick. I can get Simmons outside the lottery, possibly 15-25 range. Same for Conerly and others. The draft is about value and imo Those two could be just as good as Campbell. The other stuff about a G sliding over to tackle, loaded team isn't that important at all imo.

Maybe I'm missing something about your post but all this is fairly obvious.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

One thing you have to do is remember that I don't bump guys up for a down draft class. Like a 1st RD prospect for me in 2020 is the same as a 1st RD prospect in 2025. Most people dont have 20 1st RD grades nevermind 30+. If Campbell was going up against Thomas, Wirfs etc we wouldn't be talking about him as a top 5 pick at all. You're taking a hit on value. Maybe that's fine with some, it's not with me. I'm not going to "settle" so to speak bc it's a down year.

 

[Water Boy]

I could've told you that just from looking at him.

Is this photo real? Campbell is 6' 6" 320. That would make the rest of those fatties around 6'8" 340-350.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I'm not going to "settle" so to speak bc it's a down year.

The draft class is what it is. Some years you will get less value at 4 than other years, and this year looks like one of those. If we can't trade down with decent return (as seems likely) then where does our LT come from if we pick a non-LT at four? No guarantee that we can trade up into the first round to get one of the other tackles. And it's also not like there is some fantastic alternative at 4 that we will be missing out on (except maybe the high-end RB with a lot of tread already on his tires).

Perhaps it feels like settling to pick Campbell at four, but that's simply accepting reality.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

The draft class is what it is. Some years you will get less value at 4 than other years, and this year looks like one of those. If we can't trade down with decent return (as seems likely) then where does our LT come from if we pick a non-LT at four? No guarantee that we can trade up into the first round to get one of the other tackles. And it's also not like there is some fantastic alternative at 4 that we will be missing out on (except maybe the high-end RB with a lot of tread already on his tires).

Perhaps it feels like settling to pick Campbell at four, but that's simply accepting reality.

We can get a LT next year. The rebuild will take more than 1 year. No need to panic over a perceived desperate need. The Pats are not winning the SB this year. It is better to pick a long term starter than reach for some perceived need we can't do without. We tried to reach for Polk and Baker last year, and this year people want to try the same approach.

Hopefully Hunter or Carter drop to us. If not, hopefully we can trade down. If not, I would take Graham.

 

[mgteich]

We can get a LT next year.

or in 2027 or in 2028

 

[SlowGettingUp]

If not, I would take Graham

I just don't think after all the focus on the defensive side so far they can plausibly take another player as their first pick. So he might well be the objectively better choice, but it's not one they will make.