BB THE GOAT

[crawhammer]

I'd be willing to bet you're probably right. I don't get why @crawhammer is so closed-minded and wouldn't want to be enlightened, especially watching anything by NFL Films. I've watched them even on guys I hate and I always come away with more knowledge. That and they're always well-done.

I've seen the documentary but I'll watch it again tonight. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

I agree, NFL Films is fantastic. My 10 yo son loves it, helps him catch up on the league's history. I'm sure he can educate me some.

 

[crawhammer]

And I'm being tough on you because you're being so incredibly stubborn. This is a place to exchange thoughts and opinions and at least have a conversation. With you, on 99% of your posts, everyone else is 100% wrong and you're not. It's not a good thing.

It's probably my presentation. Pretty much everyone here holds their opinions strong. Maybe others are better at appearing less stubborn? I can think of a few who aren't but I won't name names.

A lot of this stuff is opinion based so from that respect I don't think "everyone else is wrong." Opinions can differ and there isn't always a "100% right and wrong."

But for example, if I say Parcells is an all-time elite head coach/GM while someone else is saying he's "not even in the conversation", well then I'm not conceding that point.

 

[Joker]

Can't believe Brady threw that ball to Troy Brown with a minute left...at that point I said to myself "we have a REAL NFL QB". No less than John Madden himself ate crow that day...and when Adam made that kick the buffet table filled up fast with haters the likes of which I'd never seen in all my years as a Patriots fan. If Brady had never panned out I'd STILL be one of his biggest fans. You have to have nerves of tungsten steel to carry out that play call in that spot in the Super Bowl.
Now it's 20 plus years later and there's sports fans that constantly want to rip and tear away at Brady's legacy. It's a form of NFL "woke" fandom.I believe this is due to one person's efforts to dismantle and destroy the NEP since 2006.You all know who that person is. Funny how Brady still played longer than he and every other small minded biased NFL official or pundit ever imagined.

 

[Ian]

It's probably my presentation. Pretty much everyone here holds their opinions strong. Maybe others are better at appearing less stubborn? I can think of a few who aren't but I won't name names.

A lot of this stuff is opinion based so from that respect I don't think "everyone else is wrong." Opinions can differ and there isn't always a "100% right and wrong."

But for example, if I say Parcells is an all-time elite head coach/GM while someone else is saying he's "not even in the conversation", well then I'm not conceding that point.

I would say that's accurate. And I'm glad to see you're going to re-watch that, and it's always good to learn about both sides of an argument. None of us are 100% right and none of us know everything. And as I said, those NFL Films things are fun to watch anyway.

But your presentation is part of it, and I can appreciate you being strongly opinionated, but you stand up on top of every hill and you're prepared to die on it without giving up an inch. Putting Belichick on a list for presentation means nothing if every discussion is essentially killing him for smartly drafting a player no one else wanted.

As for the post-Brady legacy, your answer will play itself out - that I can tell you with 100% certainty. And this season is obviously going to be a massive one for both he and his quarterback in terms of both their futures. But you're making statements a year too early. 20-years of greatness buys him a few seasons in terms of benefit of the doubt. But a sub .500 season without reasonable context, especially if they add significant pieces personnel-wise in the coming months, would certainly not be good.

So talk to us a year from now on that. And in the meantime, work on being a little more flexible and open-minded. You'll have an easier time here if you do

 

[RobertWeathers]

Same with Bill?? Brady has won 2 division titles and a Super Bowl after the split. The results have been very far from "the same." Brady legacy has gone up, way up.

I don't understand this post. Again, talking about the morons who allege tarnished legacies after 20 years of excellence. Are you one of those morons?

For context:

1. One is a player. One is a GM/Coach
2. One is FA who can go wherever he wants. The other is an executive under contract with the owner

To compare the two is incongruent. Who do it?

Do you tarnish Don Shula after Bob Griese retired?

And when did Brady not make the playoffs?? You need to explain/correct that comment.

2002. They missed the playoffs. Brady started every game. Good lord.

 

[sb1]

Belichick's record without Brady is part of BB's story whether we want it to be that way or not. A lot of people are noticing it. Maybe it's unfair because we're in the social media and hot take era but here we are regardless.

 

[Ian]

I don't understand this post. Again, talking about the morons who allege tarnished legacies after 20 years of excellence. Are you one of those morons?

For context:

1. One is a player. One is a GM/Coach
2. One is FA who can go wherever he wants. The other is an executive under contract with the owner

To compare the two is incongruent. Who do it?

Do you tarnish Don Shula after Bob Griese retired?

2002. Good lord.

One player went 8-9 in 2022. One coach also went 8-9 in 2022. One is far worse, for some reason.

And yes on Shula - but for different reasons

 

[sb1]

I don't understand this post. Again, talking about the morons who allege tarnished legacies after 20 years of excellence. Are you one of those morons?

For context:

1. One is a player. One is a GM/Coach
2. One is FA who can go wherever he wants. The other is an executive under contract with the owner

To compare the two is incongruent. Who do it?

Do you tarnish Don Shula after Bob Griese retired?

2002. They missed the playoffs. Brady started every game. Good lord.

I thought Brady was actually better in 2002 in quite a few ways than he was in 2001 and the outcome of the season was worse. Go figure

 

[Ian]

I thought Brady was actually better in 2002 in quite a few ways than he was in 2001 and the outcome of the season was worse. Go figure

People also forget that Brady was apparently dealing with a shoulder injury so severe, there were reports after it was over he may not have played had they made the postseason. It was crazy.

 

[sb1]

One player went 8-9 in 2022. One coach also went 8-9 in 2022. One is far worse, for some reason.

And yes on Shula - but for different reasons

The Cowboys Bucs playoff game really was a reality check.

 

[Ian]

The Cowboys Bucs playoff game really was a reality check.

That was sort of the game I was afraid he'd have here at some point and I thought the Atlanta game in the Super Bowl was going to be it given how it started. So glad he obviously orchestrated the comeback and never had a postseason blowout loss. I can only imagine how ugly it had been if he had lost that game, especially with the pick-six, etc. They would have been upping the "cliff" talk all offseason. Definitely happy that wasn't the case

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I agree. 8-9 is hardly impressive. I watched the Bucs closely, they were shockingly disappointing.

Toilet Bowles was a complete disaster, I won't argue against horrible coaching being an obvious detriment to a team's success.

They literally had no running game and injuries galore. Brady wasn't the problem in Tampa Bay this season. He miraculously won a handful of games with comebacks.

Clearly not his best season of his illustrious career but he did set an NFL record for the most pass attempts and completions in a single season. At age 45 that's pretty impressive. He also set a few other all-time NFL records which means something to those who admire and follow his career closely. 2022 was worth it for Brady's legacy.

This contradicts one of your arguments about BB.

 

[crawhammer]

2002. They missed the playoffs. Brady started every game. Good lord.

Come on, obviously I'm aware of that. ************.

You said this...

Brady chose his destination and didn't make the playoffs for the first time as a pro since 2002

That's an incorrect statement. Brady made the playoffs every season of his career except for 2002. So including Tampa Bay 2020, 2021 & 2022... playoffs each season... 5-2 record with a Super Bowl title. I'd consider that a roaring success.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I thought Brady was actually better in 2002 in quite a few ways than he was in 2001 and the outcome of the season was worse. Go figure

He was, but he was still a young QB coming off of a Cinderella season where he was now the hunted. The defense was terrible in 2002 which was probably due to Super Bowl hangover. Early on, **** Vermeil figured out the Pats couldn't stop the run and was relentless that game with Priest Holmes. Teams followed suit running the same plays and the Pats run D was gashed all year. Pass D was awful as well.

 

[Wozzy]

lol no one cares about the 1991-1995 Browns. Completely irrelevant. I've seen the documentary (boring!). I don't recall a good reason for 36-44 either. I only read about those here.

Yeah... why would a "know it all" care about history.

You're smart...

 

[crawhammer]

That was sort of the game I was afraid he'd have here at some point

Brady had worse playoff games in NE. He generally wasn't great vs Baltimore. The 2009 wild card game was pretty bad for everyone including Brady. He said he sucked in the game after the AFCCG vs Baltimore in 2011, I agreed with him.

The weight of the season caved in on the Bucs this postseason. Nearly every win in the regular season was a major struggle.

The final nail in the coffin was the week 18 loss to Atlanta. Brady was talking up the importance of finishing the regular season with a winning record and heading into the postseason with momentum. Naturally toilet bowles ****ed it up and the backups got smoked 0-20 in the second half. Arians never would have let happen.

But let's not act like Arians was revered as some great head coach before Brady got there either.

 

[crawhammer]

Yeah... why would a "know it all" care about history.

You're smart...

I care about the history of the game. Relevant history. Look, I said I'll re-watch the doc but it won't make the 91-95 Browns any more relevant. That won't change.

You're trying to convince me that the 95 team went in the toilet because of the meddling owner. Maybe so, but the team wasn't any good 91-93 either. And the best version of the team got smoked in the 94 postseason.

Plus, aren't you the guy who thinks Terry Bradshaw is really a bum?

 

[Ian]

Brady had worse playoff games in NE. He generally wasn't great vs Baltimore. The 2009 wild card game was pretty bad for everyone including Brady. He said he sucked in the game after the AFCCG vs Baltimore in 2011, I agreed with him.

The weight of the season caved in on the Bucs this postseason. Nearly every win in the regular season was a major struggle.

The final nail in the coffin was the week 18 loss to Atlanta. Brady was talking up the importance of finishing the regular season with a winning record and heading into the postseason with momentum. Naturally toilet bowles ****ed it up and the backups got smoked 0-20 in the second half. Arians never would have let happen.

But let's not act like Arians was revered as some great head coach before Brady got there either.

Still - he was a really good coach who challenged Brady and his players and clearly, the result speaks volumes. Again, coaching is underrated, but it does matter. Players win games, but coaches can definitely lose them. The best ones just tend to lose fewer

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I didn't read all eight pages, but interesting that nobody cast a single vote for Walsh. Not that I would, not at no. 1, but who outside Wisconsin would say Lambeau?

 

[Wozzy]

Bruce Arians first four years as head coach in the NFL; 9-3, 10-6, 11-5, 13-3 in order.

Tom was nowhere to be found.

Great head coach? He was certainly regarded as one of the great offensive coaches in the NFL. He certainly won like a good coach.