Asante goes off on Bill/Pats organization

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

@Wozzy @crawhammer

You two are debating a point neither of you can prove discussing on why Butler was crying. Both of your theories make some form of sense. I personally think you are both right to a degree. I think Butler probably did something that caused him to get benched but in retrospect maybe Belichick benching him was too severe a punishment and he could have played. I think it was a little bit of both. Butler doing something with a slight degree of Belichick arrogance. I think this was the game that started the atmosphere change in NE.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Were you even around when the Patriots defense was declared the least talented D in all of football in 2001? In retrospect, it had Ty Law... &... Willie McGinest. But you forget about McGinest being considered a bust in this league until Belichick came to town. Anyway, they weren't start studded.

Dude..what reality are you living in? That defense had at least two future Hall of Famers in Ty Law and Richard Seymour; both were all-decade team selections. It also had Willie McGinest, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, and Lawyer Milloy. Not everyone is typically all-pro in the same year, but it had SIX guys who were all-pro at some point. Six. And all of them starters.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

What do you want to know, their names and addresses?
My guess is that they weren't athletes. One was a musician and the other an electrician.

I thought you Meant players on the team

 

[IllegalContact]

Who?

 

[Biffins]

Asanta is just the beginning. People liked Tom. And they liked winning. It seems noone frickin likes Bill, players or media.

Watch all the knives come out. Seymour is only waiting to get into the HoF before he lets loose. I expect Mankins to have a fair few words to say. Revis has nipped here and there, but hasn't unleashed fully. Gronk is being polite so far "football is fun again" bs. But as soon as he retires I expect Gronk to let loose.

And Brady will insert the final dagger on BB's legacy himself, 5-10 years from now. Brady is FRICKIN PISSED about Guerrero, no weapons on offense, AB, Gronk, Jimmy G, No contract extension, no input on offense, and much else besides.

 

[upstater1]

Dude..what reality are you living in? That defense had at least two future Hall of Famers in Ty Law and Richard Seymour; both were all-decade team selections. It also had Willie McGinest, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, and Lawyer Milloy. Not everyone is typically all-pro in the same year, but it had SIX guys who were all-pro at some point. Six. And all of them starters.

I'm living in the world of facts. Of the additional players you claim were All-Pros (I listed Ty Law myself), only one of them had made an All-Pro team in that year or in the years prior to that year, and he made it just once. That same player was cut by Belichick and never played another game with the team. Richard Seymour was a rookie and didn't even start the first several games. He made All-Pro a few years later. Vrabel was a FA who hadn't developed into his role yet. He didn't start the first several games of the year. Bruschi and McGinest never made All-Pro. Get your facts straight. These were all good players. But at the time, the NFL GMs rated this roster the worst in the NFL. I said talentwise they were an average D, but Belichick made them better than the sum of their parts.

Since you questioned my facts, you should look it up yourself. Ty Law was the All-Pro on that team. Lawyer Milloy made it in 1998, but by the time 2001 rolled around, BB judged that his play degraded. He was cut. & he didn't go on to prove BB wrong.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm living in the world of facts. Of the additional players you claim were All-Pros (I listed Ty Law myself), only one of them had made an All-Pro team in that year or in the years prior to that year, and he made it just once. That same player was cut by Belichick and never played another game with the team. Richard Seymour was a rookie and didn't even start the first several games. He made All-Pro a few years later. Vrabel was a FA who hadn't developed into his role yet. He didn't start the first several games of the year. Bruschi and McGinest never made All-Pro. Get your facts straight. These were all good players. But at the time, the NFL GMs rated this roster the worst in the NFL. I said talentwise they were an average D, but Belichick made them better than the sum of their parts.

Since you questioned my facts, you should look it up yourself. Ty Law was the All-Pro on that team. Lawyer Milloy made it in 1998, but by the time 2001 rolled around, BB judged that his play degraded. He was cut. & he didn't go on to prove BB wrong.

Team Bill post of the year. You guys are a truly deranged group.

When one of you concedes even a single point, it will be a monumental event. I do retract that McGinest was an all-pro (thought he was), though he was a 2X pro bowler and is the all-time NFL postseason sack leader. It doesn’t change that he was absolutely a great player and would be universally recognized as a star player rather than a coached up average Joe for your narrative. Bruschi was a 2x second-team AP all-pro...if you’re going to argue about first team/second team, you’re again avoiding the fact that he was a star player either way.

TaLeNtWiSe tHeY WeRe An aVeRaGe D...lol...seriously, it’s impossible to break through the cult thinking. I just named six players who were not just above average but well above average by any objective measure.

Also, BB cut Milloy in 2003, fact boy. He gave him 7 year contract in his first month as GM. Only in your Kool-Aid drinking world would you look at the timeline here and say “derp, Bill said he wasn’t even good in 2001 so he wasn’t a star...“ He had an interception in the AFCCG against Pittsburgh.

 

[Tony2046]

Your boy beLichick doesn't love winning Super Bowls as much as he loves his personal agenda i.e. Super Bowl 52. Did you watch that game? How did you feel about Butler standing on the sideline while the defense was getting shredded and the season was swirling down the toilet bowl?

You seem to lack an understanding of how impactful Brady was to the success of the Patriots. He took over a team that had been 5-13 and led them to a Super Bowl title with a 14-3 record. Belichick hadn't won a division in 6 previous seasons as a head coach yet with Brady he wins 17 division titles in 18 seasons. Then the very first season Brady leaves, the Patriots fall from 12-4 to 7-9 while Brady turns a 7-9 team into a Super Bowl winner with a 15-5 record. You think it's a coincidence that Brady led two separate franchises to Super Bowl titles in his first as their starter?

Such a clown.

 

[Wozzy]

He friggin sat him in the Super Bowl. He doesn't have to say anything bad. Belichick wanted to win the game with Butler sobbing on the sideline... he was trying to sabotage Butler in the worse possible way by marginalizing him as a contributor to the team's success. It blew up in his face with the defense getting destroyed by a backup quarterback.

And not only did Butler's teammates not slam him, they supported him.

Here's part of what Malcolm Butler posted on Twitter and Instagram after the Super Bowl:

"During my four year career with the Patriots I have always given it everything I have to play at a high level, and would never do anything to hurt my teams' chances of winning a game, including this year's Super Bowl where I visited with my family every night. During Super Bowl week I never attended any concert, missed curfew, or participated any of the ridiculous activities being reported. They are not only false, but hurtful, to me and my family. Although I wish could have contributed more to help my team win, I have to get ready for the next opportunity."

Tom Brady's reply:

"Love you Malcolm. You are an incredible player and teammate and friend. Always!!!!!!"

These are some of the players who supported Butler by liking his Instagram message:
Phillip Dorsett, Elandon Roberts, Harvey Langi, Cody Hollister, Vincent Valentine, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon, Jacoby Brissett, Justin Coleman, LeGarrette Blount, Brandon Browner, Jamie Collins and Rob Ninkovich


He was on the field for nearly 100% of the defensive snaps for 3 straight years. He played 100% of the defensive snaps in the divisional round and the conference championship game. You questioning Belichick? If he sucked so bad then why was Belichick literally sending him out there for 3 straight years?

Why did Belichick offer Butler a contract extension prior to the 2017 season? Reportedly a six-year, $66M contract with $25.5M guaranteed. Obviously Belichick thought Butler was good enough to lock him up for a long-term contract but apparently you know better from your basement in Foxboro.

That you think Bill offered Butler a Gilmore sized contract is hilarious. He thought Butler was an UDFA talent and he was.

Butler’s teammates supported him unequivocally... that’s so unlike teammates. A couple thought enough of him to anonymously point out that he deserved a benching rather than give their names.

You hate Belichick... it’s okay to say it. It colors every post of yours, but it’s not a crime.



“As far as I know, all of that is the furthest thing from the truth. We all knew he wasn’t starting all week. That wasn’t a secret to the guys on the team.” - Devin McCourty

 

[Boomer B]

I wasn't there but teammates commented about it off the record after the season was over.

We know you weren’t there. What specifically did his teammates say?

 

[Wozzy]

We know you weren’t there. What specifically did his teammates say?

“No, I have actually asked quite a few guys who were on the team at the time,” Shane Vereen told CBS Sports, “and I have not got the same answer twice.” Conspiratorially, he added, “the grassy knoll still exists.” That last bit, implying some kind of unknowable conspiracy, is telling. Whatever ran through Belichick’s mind, the only people who know aren’t willing to say.

In other words, his teammates and even the coach that benched him weren’t going to throw him under the bus prior to free agency.

But he f—ed up... and that’s why he was crying before the game. It wasn’t because BB was mean to him like Crawdad says... which is absurd.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

1. Why do you give Belichick the benefit of the doubt re: the Butler benching, due to not have all the information, when Belichick himself has made sure no one in the organization speaks of it? Comparable situation: I believe this guy didn’t kill anyone...his attorneys are trying to make sure we don’t review any evidence...so he probably didn’t do it.
2. What kind of weird fan fiction is: he was trying to protect Butler’s free agency! What? Huh? Whaaaa? Where did this Team Bill “fact” originate? Don’t you think that benching him in the Super Bowl for unknown reasons might have raised some red flags? And don’t you think that the Titans got the real story before that contract? The actual question is: why doesn’t Bill want the public to know the circumstances? Is he really protecting Butler? Or himself? Hard to imagine whatever Butler did was worth a self-imposed team penalty that likely cost them the only three-peat of the SB era. And if were that bad, hard to imagine he’d still be active.
3. Where exactly was there precedent that informal suspensions like this are tight lipped team issues? No press releases needed...the team always leaks this stuff to reporters. Wes Welker suspended for one series for foot jokes. Players being late for practice in a snow storm...team discipline issues that become a public/fan transparency issue when game status is effected...has never led to stonewalling.
4. Can you really argue that “the best in-game adjuster of all-time” made the right call in keeping Butler on the bench and seriously argue that this was the right Xs and Os decision? This was one of the defensive disasters of his career, maybe the worst. It was directly tied to going after guys normally covered by Butler. This is like saying: Tyron Lue decided to bench LeBron James for game 7 for reasons unknown. It’s true we were expected to win but lost by 30 points. However, he said he did what was best for the team, and how we do know we wouldn’t have lost by more if LeBron had played? You can’t prove it was a bad decision (even though in both cases, common sense evidence is overwhelming.)

 

[crawhammer]

Were you even around when the Patriots defense was declared the least talented D in all of football in 2001?

Yes I was around. I don't care what anyone else said. You said Belichick made great defenses with average players. You're wrong.

That 2001 defense had...

Ty Law
Lawyer Milloy
Willie McGinest
Richard Seymour
Tedy Bruschi
Ted Johnson
Roman Phifer
Bryan Cox
Mike Vrabel

You two are debating a point neither of you can prove discussing on why Butler was crying. Both of your theories make some form of sense.

He says Butler was crying because he knew "he f*cked his teammates over." That makes no f*cking sense at all. Butler adamantly denied doing anything wrong and he was overwhelmingly supposed by his teammates. Belichick was operating on his own selfish agenda and it cost the team a Super Bowl.

That you think Bill offered Butler a Gilmore sized contract is hilarious. He thought Butler was an UDFA talent and he was.

The $ doesn't matter. Belichick offered Butler a multi-year contract prior to the 2017 season. I don't care if it was for peanuts, the point is Belichick wanted Butler as part of the long term plan, which he wouldn't for an UDFA talent. You got it wrong, just admit it. Did did Butler deny you an autograph?

Such a clown.

Cry for help from Ian, again.

 

[upstater1]

Team Bill post of the year. You guys are a truly deranged group.

When one of you concedes even a single point, it will be a monumental event. I do retract that McGinest was an all-pro (thought he was), though he was a 2X pro bowler and is the all-time NFL postseason sack leader. It doesn’t change that he was absolutely a great player and would be universally recognized as a star player rather than a coached up average Joe for your narrative. Bruschi was a 2x second-team AP all-pro...if you’re going to argue about first team/second team, you’re again avoiding the fact that he was a star player either way.

TaLeNtWiSe tHeY WeRe An aVeRaGe D...lol...seriously, it’s impossible to break through the cult thinking. I just named six players who were not just above average but well above average by any objective measure.

Also, BB cut Milloy in 2003, fact boy. He gave him 7 year contract in his first month as GM. Only in your Kool-Aid drinking world would you look at the timeline here and say “derp, Bill said he wasn’t even good in 2001 so he wasn’t a star...“ He had an interception in the AFCCG against Pittsburgh.

View attachment 30687

You BB haters are something else, haters of the greatest coach in NFL history, he'll never be rivaled. Makes me think you're troll fans from another team.

Many average teams have multiple Pro Bowlers. They give Pro Bowl nods out like lollipops in the doctors office. I was quoting you also what personnel men all over the league were saying about the Patriots that year. This is pretty well known. And it's no surprise that Willie McGinest didn't make those teams because as good as WIllie is, and I agree he's very good, people were down on him over parts of his career. Even in the year we're talking about, he spent much of it injured and only started 5 games.

I was wrong about Milloy's cut but it doesn't matter since that team went 9-7 and clearly, Belichick thought Milloy was on his last legs. He was not proven wrong. I'm in Buffalo and Bills fans would regularly talk about getting the Patriots scraps.

You severely overrate Milloy.

As for Vrabel, he wasn't a starter at Pittsburgh and he didn't start immediately in New England, and he wasnt the big impact guy he later became. Certainly not an All-Pro like you stated.

I'll say it again: Ty Law was the elite player on that team.

The rest are the kinds of good players you need to win Super Bowls.

Now Seymour is going to be a HOF. A truly great player. But that year as a rookie he didn't even start and play half the game until midway through the season. He was a pup.

Bruschi, very good player, but not a top player in the league. I actually rate McGinest higher than Bruschi for impact.

I'd also note something else. Most of these guys except for Seymour and Vrabel were around the Patriots for many years and they were part of failing defenses under Pete Carroll. Milloy, Bruschi, McGinest and Law were long term vets by 2001. Those Ds finished 20, 20, 19, 19 under Carroll. With the 4 players we're talking about. Clearly, Belichick knew something more about defense than Peter Carroll did because he used Carroll's players to win a Super Bowl, whereas Carroll's defenses just got worse year after year.

 

[Wozzy]

Yes I was around. I don't care what anyone else said. You said Belichick made great defenses with average players. You're wrong.

That 2001 defense had...

Ty Law
Lawyer Milloy
Willie McGinest
Richard Seymour
Tedy Bruschi
Ted Johnson
Roman Phifer
Bryan Cox
Mike Vrabel


He says Butler was crying because he knew "he f*cked his teammates over." That makes no f*cking sense at all. Butler adamantly denied doing anything wrong and he was overwhelmingly supposed by his teammates. Belichick was operating on his own selfish agenda and it cost the team a Super Bowl.


The $ doesn't matter. Belichick offered Butler a multi-year contract prior to the 2017 season. I don't care if it was for peanuts, the point is Belichick wanted Butler as part of the long term plan, which he wouldn't for an UDFA talent. You got it wrong, just admit it. Did did Butler deny you an autograph?


Cry for help from Ian, again.

According to whom? I never heard this rumor he offered Butler a contract. Of course if he offered him what befits an UDFA corner I have no doubt Butler was upset about that. Also time has shown that evaluation to be correct. And I have no doubt Butler was disgruntled and wasn’t worth what BB paid Gilmore.

Butler was never that good, his absence didn’t effect the 2017 Super Bowl one iota. BB haters aren’t exactly objective or frankly knowledgeable, otherwise they’d recognize he was most singularly responsible for the 6 rings they do have.

He’s the guy who drafted Tom Brady after all, and was in charge of the only NFL team that called Malcolm Butler when he was working the fry station at Popeye’s Chicken after college ended. But I’m sure your BB hate is justified...

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Asanta is just the beginning. People liked Tom. And they liked winning. It seems noone frickin likes Bill, players or media.

Watch all the knives come out. Seymour is only waiting to get into the HoF before he lets loose. I expect Mankins to have a fair few words to say. Revis has nipped here and there, but hasn't unleashed fully. Gronk is being polite so far "football is fun again" bs. But as soon as he retires I expect Gronk to let loose.

And Brady will insert the final dagger on BB's legacy himself, 5-10 years from now. Brady is FRICKIN PISSED about Guerrero, no weapons on offense, AB, Gronk, Jimmy G, No contract extension, no input on offense, and much else besides.

Who cares if they "like" their coach and GM. They do not have to "like" him. Its a business and the bottom line is winning, which Bill has accomplished. Bill made Ssante a boatload of money (57 million) over his career by drafting him and developing him. ***ante, stop whining, be a man and suck it up.

 

[Boomer B]

“No, I have actually asked quite a few guys who were on the team at the time,” Shane Vereen told CBS Sports, “and I have not got the same answer twice.” Conspiratorially, he added, “the grassy knoll still exists.” That last bit, implying some kind of unknowable conspiracy, is telling. Whatever ran through Belichick’s mind, the only people who know aren’t willing to say.

In other words, his teammates and even the coach that benched him weren’t going to throw him under the bus prior to free agency.

But he f—ed up... and that’s why he was crying before the game. It wasn’t because BB was mean to him like Crawdad says... which is absurd.

So you said in your earlier post “ he did some childish crap leading up to the game.” Then when I asked what he did specifically you replied “I wasn't there but teammates commented about it off the record after the season was over.”Now when I asked what they said specifically you don’t give us anything that says he did some childish crap before the game.

Basically you just proved you’re full of crap.

 

[Wozzy]

edt

 

[Wozzy]

By the way for anyone who doesn’t remember Malcolm Butler was immediately salty after the Super Bowl loss in 2017, he said the Patriots gave up on him and complained.

After he signed his big contract with Tennessee he was contrite and thanked BB for everything he had done for his career.

When Butler finished college he was working in a fast food restaurant and only received one offer from an NFL team to try out... one. The Patriots were the only team that called. So if they hadn’t called he might be manager of Popeye’s Chicken at this point.

Fans are dumb... no offense, but there are some real pom pom waving mouth breathers out there.

After Butler signed with Titans, Belichick phoned with thanks for all he'd done with Pats

The Patriots’ decision to bench Malcolm Butler for the Super Bowl remains baffling. Their choice to let him leave via free agency is less surprising but — considering the state of the New England defense — still debatable. Yet the Pats insist it was strictly a football decision, nothing more...

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Wozzy]

So you said in your earlier post “ he did some childish crap leading up to the game.” Then when I asked what he did specifically you replied “I wasn't there but teammates commented about it off the record after the season was over.”Now when I asked what they said specifically you don’t give us anything that says he did some childish crap before the game.

Basically you just proved you’re full of crap.

What part did you not understand?