article: Pats and Bengals only teams to not draft a Pro Bowler the last 6 years

[Biffins]

Non-Pro Bowlers who were drafted since 2014 who played signifiant role in winning a SB for NE :
2014 : James White & Bryan Stork
2015 : Trey Flowers, Shaq Mason, Joe Cardona
2016 : Thuney, Malcolm Mitchell
2018 : Sony Michel

Fun Pro Bowlers in the 2000s :
2007 Marion Barber
2005 Cato June
2004 Rudi Johnson
2000 Elvis Grbac
2006 AND 2008 Vince Young (!)
2008 (and 1996) Kerry Collins
2007 Derek Anderson

Long story short : Super Bowl > Pro Bowl

I am sure you understood the point of the OP but deliberately obfuscated it with a straw man argument.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I don't know if that's true. Being a QB and not being dumb is usually a good attribute. Unless you're Brett Favre with a rocket arm.

.

I'm sure many on here have seen sample Wonderlic tests and they are very pointless. Has nothing to do with football and is something they should get rid of.

However, it's still used by teams as tactic to throw out there "his stock is dropping" if he doesn't do well so they have a better shot at him.

 

[farn]

I am sure you understood the point of the OP but deliberately obfuscated it with a straw man argument.

Looks like we rarely agree on things. You seem to want to jump on all BB criticisms possible.

I really didn’t change the argument at all. The OP is suggesting NE is as bad as Cincy at drafting. My examples are relevant : drafting players that contribute at the most crucial times (the playoffs & SBs) is better than drafting stat heavy losers who get a chance to participate in a game no one cares about.

NE is the prime example that having a teammate full of ProBowlers doesn’t equate to winning. Winning is everything. Draft winners. And win.

It’s Covid Time. Let’s be friends, B.

 

[Biffins]

Looks like we rarely agree on things. You seem to want to jump on all BB criticisms possible.

I really didn’t change the argument at all. The OP is suggesting NE is as bad as Cincy at drafting. My examples are relevant : drafting players that contribute at the most crucial times (the playoffs & SBs) is better than drafting stat heavy losers who get a chance to participate in a game no one cares about.

NE is the prime example that having a teammate full of ProBowlers doesn’t equate to winning. Winning is everything. Draft winners. And win.

It’s Covid Time. Let’s be friends, B.

Mate, this is the very definition of straw man argument. OP never said having lots of Pro Bowlers is better than winning Superbowls. The conclusion to your post was having SuperBowls is better than having Pro Bowlers. THIS IS A STRAW MAN.

There could be dozens of reasons why we won Superbowls, like having Tom Brady, great additions in FA, good pick-ups in UDFA, food coaching staff, easy schedule, good trades, great game planning, great conditioning, etc. And many many more. None of which change the fact that the Patriots drafted poorly or drafted no Pro Bowlers which was the OP’s point. These things are unrelated but you created a straw man.

Tomorrow I could post saying Michel had a poor season, and you can say “Yeah but Superbowls”. Or I say “we drafted a lot of defensive backs in 2nd round that missed” and you’ll say “Yeah but superbowls”. Or I’ll say “We can’t seem to develop young WRs” and you’ll say “Yeah but Superbowls”. These are all Straw Man arguments.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Looks like we rarely agree on things. You seem to want to jump on all BB criticisms possible.

I really didn’t change the argument at all. The OP is suggesting NE is as bad as Cincy at drafting. My examples are relevant : drafting players that contribute at the most crucial times (the playoffs & SBs) is better than drafting stat heavy losers who get a chance to participate in a game no one cares about.

NE is the prime example that having a teammate full of ProBowlers doesn’t equate to winning. Winning is everything. Draft winners. And win.

It’s Covid Time. Let’s be friends, B.

I think it's unfair to say any team other than the Pats who draft guys who are considered pro bowlers, but don't play for anything meaningful. Those players can only do so much and it's not their fault they probably have an incompetent QB/coach/team surrounding them.

Rodney Harrison couldn't win jack in SD, but then wins a Super Bowl in his first year in NE.

Corey Dillon was a very talented back but couldn't win anything in Cincy. He goes to the Pats and made them almost impossible to beat in the regular season. They went on to win a Super Bowl.

Randy Moss? While he didn't win a Super Bowl, he was playing many more meaningful games.

Gilmore?

List goes on.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't know if that's true.
.

It's not

 

[primetime]

It's not

(PDF) Not Much More Than g? An Examination of the Impact of Intelligence on NFL Performance

Researchers found no correlation for most positions and a negative correlation for defensive backs and tight ends. But your functional intelligence is effectively zero so this isn't a shocking post.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

(PDF) Not Much More Than g? An Examination of the Impact of Intelligence on NFL Performance

Researchers found no correlation for most positions and a negative correlation for defensive backs and tight ends. But your functional intelligence is effectively zero so this isn't a shocking post.

I dunno. Some positions don't need a lot of intelligence. Others do. It's not clear cut.

.

 

[Deus Irae]

(PDF) Not Much More Than g? An Examination of the Impact of Intelligence on NFL Performance

Researchers found no correlation for most positions and a negative correlation for defensive backs and tight ends. But your functional intelligence is effectively zero so this isn't a shocking post.

Your claim was

Wonderlic scores are negatively correlated to the outcome of a player's career, so you actually do better taking a player with a lower Wonderlic score.

That is not accurate. Your own study shows that.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

well they did drafted a lot of good bowlers

 

[primetime]

I dunno. Some positions don't need a lot of intelligence. Others do. It's not clear cut.

.

The Wonderlic doesn't measure intelligence though. "Intelligence" doesn't mean anything, really. Tom Brady believes in magic concussion water and I wouldn't ask him to keep track of my finances, but he's a genius as a quarterback.

 

[farn]

Mate, this is the very definition of straw man argument. OP never said having lots of Pro Bowlers is better than winning Superbowls. The conclusion to your post was having SuperBowls is better than having Pro Bowlers. THIS IS A STRAW MAN.

There could be dozens of reasons why we won Superbowls, like having Tom Brady, great additions in FA, good pick-ups in UDFA, food coaching staff, easy schedule, good trades, great game planning, great conditioning, etc. And many many more. None of which change the fact that the Patriots drafted poorly or drafted no Pro Bowlers which was the OP’s point. These things are unrelated but you created a straw man.

Tomorrow I could post saying Michel had a poor season, and you can say “Yeah but Superbowls”. Or I say “we drafted a lot of defensive backs in 2nd round that missed” and you’ll say “Yeah but superbowls”. Or I’ll say “We can’t seem to develop young WRs” and you’ll say “Yeah but Superbowls”. These are all Straw Man arguments.

Throw about « Yeah but Superbowls » if you wish. I don’t know why that is so offensive.

It’s the ONLY thing. I don’t care about the individual players, I don’t care about the stats, I don’t care about the stories, the charities, the 40 times, the Pro Bowl.........

I only care about the winning. So « yeah but Superbowls » sounds insane to me. It’s the only thing that matters. So, I was making the argument that BB is drafting pieces he can use to win. He’s not drafting « a future rushing champ ».

What WAS the OP saying other than « NE drafts poorly » ? Why create the thread other than to suggest that NE’s recent drafting has been so poor it compares to Cincy ?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Throw about « Yeah but Superbowls » if you wish. I don’t know why that is so offensive.

It’s the ONLY thing. I don’t care about the individual players, I don’t care about the stats, I don’t care about the stories, the charities, the 40 times, the Pro Bowl.........

I only care about the winning. So « yeah but Superbowls » sounds insane to me. It’s the only thing that matters. So, I was making the argument that BB is drafting pieces he can use to win. He’s not drafting « a future rushing champ ».

What WAS the OP saying other than « NE drafts poorly » ? Why create the thread other than to suggest that NE’s recent drafting has been so poor it compares to Cincy ?

Even forgetting pro bowls, look at the last several years just for starters or even role players. Literally look at the list of names. The drafts haven't been good aside from Dante molding some OLinemen.

.

 

[carmelo15]

Having a lot of real good players who are not pro bowlers isnt a bad thing.

Yes when you have a goat QB or guys like mahomes/Wilson/Watson otherwise you’re ****ed

 

[Joey007]

FWIW, to be a Pro Bowler, you have to:

• Be one of the initial vote winners, or
• Actually attend the Pro Bowl.

If you're invited as a replacement, but decline, you're not a Pro Bowler.

The same holds if you're invited but can't go because you're playing in the Super Bowl.

And, as someone quipped on Twitter, the Patriots are one of one teams to play in four Super Bowls in the last six years.

Very strong point here.

We are one of the very few teams that never has Pro Bowl alternates. Not just because we’re in the Super Bowl. I genuinely think we don’t even make lists for them like most teams do.

 

[farn]

I don’t even know where to go from here. By reading responses, I can’t tell which team we cheer for. It can’t be the same team I follow.

2014 Champs
2015 AFCCG
2016 Champs
2017 SB
2018 Champs
2019 12-4 (OMG !!!)

Since the team is mostly homegrown talent, and they have had a level of success rivalled only by themselves in the early 2000s, what are the posters here saying ?

Are the detractors suggesting that they believe Tom Brady is such an out of worldly talent that despite playing with complete bums, that he was able to surmount all odds and single handedly lift the trophy ?

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Just about every team has a player or two, or three, who you could argue should be Pro Bowlers. This doesn't exclusively affect the Pats, so citing guys like James White or Trey Flowers is fairly meaningless.

The Pats won their recent SuperBowls thanks to Brady, Belichick and some nice signings/trades that made up for their poor drafting.

Yea, not sure why people can't just admit the drafting over the last few years has been horrendous.. but Belichick's ability to acquire free agents and coach the team up, along with Brady, were able to mask some of that

not really sure whats so hard to admit it hasn't been great... i mean, do people really think the drafting over the last 3-4 years has been good?

They won 3 superbowls, maybe they win that Eagles SB if they drafted 1 or 2 more playmakers.. its ok to admit things aren't perfect and strive for improvement, it doesn't take away from their accomplishments

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I hope you didn't post this to show us that you possess superior 20-20 hindsight.

UNLESS you were willing to dump Brady and their current offense after 3 CONSECUTIVE superbowl appearances, then the drafting of Lamar Jackson would have been a mistake. Jackson has proved (for one season) that he is very good at working with an unique offense designed around his particular skill set. There are many questions about how well he will do when teams catch up to that unique offense.

Definitely not one of your better efforts.

As to the OT. This was a better headline than good reporting. As people have already listed, the Pats have had several draft picks who have been better than some of those so called probowl picks. Being in 4 superbowls in 6 years has led to much of that headline.

Off the top of my head, Flowers, Thuney, Mason, and White have all been "pro bowl" worthy just on the basis of the contracts they've gotten because of their on field success

I don't understand, Ken?

Why couldn't we draft a QB replacement in 2018, Jackson or another prospect?

Why would we have to immediately dump Brady?

I can't speak for others. I wanted Jackson here in 2017, nevermind by draft time. I thought one of the best situations he could be in, would be our team.

Ran a variation of the EP in college. Sitting behind and watching Brady. Getting ripped by Bill, Josh & co. Seeing what it takes to achieve what we've accomplished. He's still super young. Idk I thought it made a lot of sense.

Also let's not forget Jackson lead his team to the playoffs his 1st year after taking over a losing team mid-season.

 

[Captain Cliche]

Primetime, I don't usually get into a back and forth when posters get insulting, but maybe do a little research before getting triggered.

NFL Quarterback Wonderlic Scores Matter A Great Deal

"My position on the Wonderlic is simple, I believe that all combine measurement scores, physical and mental, are important tools that allow teams to compare individual prospects against each other and against several years of game film. Some teams use the combine data on the Wonderlic a great deal — the Patriots, for instance, consistently draft players that score highly on the Wonderlic — and other teams do not. "

"And here are the present Super Bowl winning quarterbacks currently active in the NFL and their Wonderlic scores:

Eli Manning 39

Aaron Rodgers 35

Tom Brady 33

Drew Brees 28

Russell Wilson 28

Joe Flacco 27

Ben Roethlisberger 25

This means the average Super Bowl winning quarterback scored a 30.7. (That’s not counting Brady’s 33 five times or Eli Manning’s 39 twice either. If you did that the average score bumps up to 32.3)

That’s statistically significant."

I recall Scott Pioli saying part of his job was to weed out the knuckle heads.

The Patriots use complex schemes on both offense and defense with their defensive schemes especially changing from week to week. They obviously place value on intelligent players and look at Wonderlic scores as part of their evaluation process...kinda like the bias they seem to place on the 3 cone drill.

 

[patfanken]

I don't understand, Ken?

Why couldn't we draft a QB replacement in 2018, Jackson or another prospect?

Why would we have to immediately dump Brady?

I can't speak for others. I wanted Jackson here in 2017, nevermind by draft time. I thought one of the best situations he could be in, would be our team.

Ran a variation of the EP in college. Sitting behind and watching Brady. Getting ripped by Bill, Josh & co. Seeing what it takes to achieve what we've accomplished. He's still super young. Idk I thought it made a lot of sense.

Also let's not forget Jackson lead his team to the playoffs his 1st year after taking over a losing team mid-season.

I wouldn't have gone nuts with picking Jackson. He has a nice set of skills, and (using the JG example) would have been an excellent choice after 3 years of sitting behind Brady. But there is still a lot of 20-20 hindsight in that selection