Article on Clutch QB's.

[RobertWeathers]

Ok RW, your F'ing with my head. Now I don't even know what clutch means.

Let me ask you this.

Was Brady's 2014 AFCCG more clutch than his 2016 AFCCG?

Hmm.

Well....In both blowout wins he played great in games when a SB appearance was on the line.

So equal?

 

[DarrylS]

As long as #12 is number one, do not really care about those vying for his breadcrumbs... the other 24 plus those not mentioned will never compare to the GOAT...

10 Game winning drives.. no one comes close. There will be those who will argue that because he has played all those playoff games he should lead in all playoff categories.. well duh, you have to make it to the tournament to hold all those records.

Tom Brady has led 10 game-winning drives in the playoffs, four more than any other quarterback in history and as many as John Elway and Dan Marino combined.

Brady has thrown 63 career postseason touchdowns, the most in history; Joe Montana is second with 45. Add Elway's 27 playoff touchdowns to Troy Aikman's 23, and you can still squeeze a Bob Griese, Joe Theismann, Jim Plunkett or Fran Tarkenton in (all have less than 13) and still wind up with fewer postseason touchdowns than Tom Brady.

 

[RobertWeathers]

As long as #12 is number one, do not really care about those vying for his breadcrumbs... the other 24 plus those not mentioned will never compare to the GOAT...

10 Game winning drives.. no one comes close. There will be those who will argue that because he has played all those playoff games he should lead in all playoff categories.. well duh, you have to make it to the tournament to hold all those records.

I go back and forth on GW drives as a worth while metric to judge how clutch a Qb is.

GW drives certainly shows how a Qb operates under pressure but it also means his team is in a situation where it either isn't good to lead games consistently or the Qb had been playing like poop and finally gets his act together in the 2 minutes drill when the other D is tired.

 

[Tony2046]

I go back and forth on GW drives as a worth while metric to judge how clutch a Qb is.

GW drives certainly shows how a Qb operates under pressure but it also means his team is in a situation where it either isn't good to lead games consistently or the Qb had been playing like poop and finally gets his act together in the 2 minutes drill when the other D is tired.

To me the 2014 and 2016 AFCCG weren't clutch performances rather just great games. The 2014 AFC Divisional game, SB 49 and SB 51 weren't exactly great full game performances but they were a clutch as I've ever seen.

This is the definition of clutch found in wiki.

Clutch (sports) - Wikipedia

Clutch performance in sports is the phenomenon of athletes under pressure, often in the last minutes of a game, to summon strength, concentration and whatever else necessary to succeed, to perform well, and perhaps change the outcome of the game. It occurs in basketball, hockey, football, other sports and esports. The opposite is "choking": failing to perform as needed, when under pressure.


But I do agree with you in that something is missing from his criteria. Maybe he needs to add a choking element because that would at least change where Manning is ranked.

Manning has had 45 comebacks and 56 game winning drives which is 6 more of each than Brady but I would never consider Manning anywhere near as clutch as TB.

I wondered if the criteria failed to penalize for choke performances so I looked up pick sixes and found this article from 2013.

Most Pick Sixes Thrown in NFL History

Tom Brady ranked 90th with 8 at the time.



Most in one season:

 

[Tony2046]

Hmm.

Well....In both blowout wins he played great in games when a SB appearance was on the line.

So equal?

I didn't ask the question correctly.

 

[RobertWeathers]

To me the 2014 and 2016 AFCCG weren't clutch performances rather just great games. The 2014 AFC Divisional game, SB 49 and SB 51 weren't exactly great full game performances but they were a clutch as I've ever seen.

This is the definition of clutch found in wiki.

Clutch (sports) - Wikipedia

Clutch performance in sports is the phenomenon of athletes under pressure, often in the last minutes of a game, to summon strength, concentration and whatever else necessary to succeed, to perform well, and perhaps change the outcome of the game. It occurs in basketball, hockey, football, other sports and esports. The opposite is "choking": failing to perform as needed, when under pressure.


But I do agree with you in that something is missing from his criteria. Maybe he needs to add a choking element because that would at least change where Manning is ranked.

Manning has had 45 comebacks and 56 game winning drives which is 6 more of each than Brady but I would never consider Manning anywhere near as clutch as TB.

I wondered if the criteria failed to penalize for choke performances so I looked up pick sixes and found this article from 2013.

Most Pick Sixes Thrown in NFL History

Tom Brady ranked 90th with 8 at the time.

View attachment 17497

Most in one season:
View attachment 17498

Yea there is a difference in my definition compared to yours and the others. I've expanded the critera to include performances in big games and winning. Obviously I put a ton of weight on winning and titles. I aknowledge that.

For example, there no way I can agree Jim Kelly (loser of 4 Super Bowls) is more clutch than Graham, Starr or Bradshaw. I understand their logic behind the rankings but I can't agree with it.

Good discussion nonethless

 

[Tony2046]

Yea there is a difference in my definition compared to yours and the others. I've expanded the critera to include performances in big games and winning. Obviously I put a ton of weight on winning and titles. I aknowledge that.

For example, there no way I can agree Jim Kelly (loser of 4 Super Bowls) is more clutch than Graham, Starr or Bradshaw. I understand their logic behind the rankings but I can't agree with it.

Good discussion nonethless

I don't agree with their logic in the rankings either.


I'm not sure you can be listed on a top ten clutch list and top ten career pick six list.




They also led the league multiple times in pick sixes in a season.






They also lead in career interceptions:

 

[zydecochris]

Exactly.

Winning championships is THE single, most determining stat which defines clutchness and not some random 4th quarter come from behind win in October.

In whatever order after Brady...

Starr
Graham
Montana
Elway
Staubach
Bradshaw

Good list. With your definition of "clutchness" (which I liked), and modifying it a bit to emphasize how much of the credit each championship QB deserved for the win (i.e., who "did the most with the least") my order for 2-6 (leaving out Graham, who I never saw so I can't rate) would be:
1) Brady, the ultimate no-brainer choice, and he did the most with the least, the team surrounding him was much less dominant than that of others on this list.
2) Staubach, he might have been the second best leader after Brady, and he was always in control. His teams were less dominant than those of 3-6 on this list.
3) Montana, he played better on the biggest stages than anyone except Brady, surrounded by truly dominant players.
4) Starr, a great leader who always seemed to do the right thing to win. A great team for its era.
5) Elway, a terrifying QB for opponents, but he didn't truly become "clutch" in championship games until he was supported by one of the most productive running games in history.
6) Bradshaw, he might have had the strongest supporting cast. I don't remember him being particularly mistake-free or amazingly clutch in his victories, but he won and won, and you have to give him credit for that.

 

[jmt57]

I am still trying to figure out how a passer has a fraction of a pick-six.

Did some of these guys throw a pick-two, pick-three or pick-four?

 

[Tony2046]

I am still trying to figure out how a passer has a fraction of a pick-six.

Did some of these guys throw a pick-two, pick-three or pick-four?

He explains it in the link.

Their database only goes back to 1999 (IIRC). So after 1999 they have every throw logged by each QB. Prior to that they have only game logs and in some of them multiple picks were thrown in a game in which multiple QB's played so they tried to split the responsibility up between the QB's that played during that game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Good list. With your definition of "clutchness" (which I liked), and modifying it a bit to emphasize how much of the credit each championship QB deserved for the win (i.e., who "did the most with the least") my order for 2-6 (leaving out Graham, who I never saw so I can't rate) would be:
1) Brady, the ultimate no-brainer choice, and he did the most with the least, the team surrounding him was much less dominant than that of others on this list.
2) Staubach, he might have been the second best leader after Brady, and he was always in control. His teams were less dominant than those of 3-6 on this list.
3) Montana, he played better on the biggest stages than anyone except Brady, surrounded by truly dominant players.
4) Starr, a great leader who always seemed to do the right thing to win. A great team for its era.
5) Elway, a terrifying QB for opponents, but he didn't truly become "clutch" in championship games until he was supported by one of the most productive running games in history.
6) Bradshaw, he might have had the strongest supporting cast. I don't remember him being particularly mistake-free or amazingly clutch in his victories, but he won and won, and you have to give him credit for that.

Yep. Bradshaw had a ton of talent surrounding him and a great defense to bail out his INTs but in the playoffs, he made major clutch plays time after time and actually raised his game.

Elway was clutch in the 80s before the Shanny and TD Bronks. Personally i thought those 80s Broncos teams were very average but friggan Elway always pulled them out of the fire. Even though he lost SBs to the NFC buzzsaws 3 times in the 80s, he was incredible in the AFC playoffs

 

[TBR]

Not on the list: Aaron Rodgers

Who?

 

[DaBronxPats14]

In this case they finally got it right, however.....
Everybody Mediot* & Hater*can make every poll, list, topic on who is No.1 QB ever.
They can flip flop Numbers 2 through whatever but WE KNOW.
BRADY! ALL DAY! EVERY DAY! GOAT!

 

[PatsFanInVa]

First off, the definitional bit at the beginning makes the thinking here fuzzy at best. "Guys known for losing the big game can be clutch..." I dunno. Not in New England. Hell, they even got rid of the clutchiest clutch kicker evah because, well, come on he's just a kicker.

As with most things, I waffle on whether "clutchness" exists. What does exist is what Brady exhibits, an absolute unwillingness to let a game be considered "over" until the last whistle (I used to say until the clock reads 00:00... but, well, you know.)

You plug in a guy that's Brady's statistical equal (you usually have about 1-3 to choose from in a given year,) and tell me that he'd put the team on his back with that infectious belief in fighting until you win. Of course, "in a given year" is a fun saying... ain't no comparisons over the last 15.

We have had it so good. The Great Cliff Debate aside, we've already gotten more joy out of his play than any fanbase ever got from a QB in history... no hyperbole, and that right there is an effed up thing to say with certainty.

Oh except the JEST. They're still grooving on a SB victory that turns 50 right about when Brady gets the next trophy.

Oh the memories. Well, memory, singular. But still.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

In this case they finally got it right, however.....
Everybody Mediot* & Hater*can make every poll, list, topic on who is No.1 QB ever.
They can flip flop Numbers 2 through whatever but WE KNOW.
BRADY! ALL DAY! EVERY DAY! GOAT!

I believe it's pronounced "all day err day"

 

[Ring 6]

I go back and forth on GW drives as a worth while metric to judge how clutch a Qb is.

GW drives certainly shows how a Qb operates under pressure but it also means his team is in a situation where it either isn't good to lead games consistently or the Qb had been playing like poop and finally gets his act together in the 2 minutes drill when the other D is tired.

It should probably be looked at as a %. Comeback wins as a percent of games trailed.

 

[Tony2046]

First off, the definitional bit at the beginning makes the thinking here fuzzy at best. "Guys known for losing the big game can be clutch..." I dunno. Not in New England. Hell, they even got rid of the clutchiest clutch kicker evah because, well, come on he's just a kicker.

As with most things, I waffle on whether "clutchness" exists. What does exist is what Brady exhibits, an absolute unwillingness to let a game be considered "over" until the last whistle (I used to say until the clock reads 00:00... but, well, you know.)

You plug in a guy that's Brady's statistical equal (you usually have about 1-3 to choose from in a given year,) and tell me that he'd put the team on his back with that infectious belief in fighting until you win. Of course, "in a given year" is a fun saying... ain't no comparisons over the last 15.

We have had it so good. The Great Cliff Debate aside, we've already gotten more joy out of his play than any fanbase ever got from a QB in history... no hyperbole, and that right there is an effed up thing to say with certainty.

Oh except the JEST. They're still grooving on a SB victory that turns 50 right about when Brady gets the next trophy.

Oh the memories. Well, memory, singular. But still.

Waffling????

Rewatch SB 51 and the 2004 ALCS and tell me if you waffling on whether clutch exists.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Waffling????

Rewatch SB 51 and the 2004 ALCS and tell me if you waffling on whether clutch exists.

I hear ya. However, statisticians have an ongoing debate on "clutch." I was one of the ones in the SB 51 game day threads saying "if you think it's over why are you still here?"

OTOH, Brady wasn't "clutch" plenty of times... we just knock out "clutch fails" from the collective memory.

Last coda however... we've seen guys go away when they screw up the "big moment." That said it usually coincides with a contract renegotiation, where we'd keep them if the price were right.

 

[sean10mm]

Even on his Super Bowl winning runs, Peyton tried to choke them away. He just failed to do so because he was carried.

In his first 2 playoff games leading to his first ring, he threw 5 picks and only 1 touchdown. That 2006 Colts team advanced in the playoffs entirely because of its defense, which went berserk once Bob Sanders came back.

It carried over to the 2007 season, when it had the #1 scoring defense in football (BUT PEYTON'S COLTS TEAMS NEVER HAD DEFENSE LOLZ), only to choke against the Chargers in a game where BILLY VOLEK punked them.

He "won" (read: was around for) his second Super Bowl throwing for 141 yards, 0 TD 1 INT and a passer rating of 56.6.

 

[BobDigital]

Isn't there a stat somewhere which shows comeback percentage? Like the number of times when your team is down in the 4th when you win. I think that would show a lot.

A lot of QBs with a lot of comebacks have them cause they had a lot of chances to come back so pure comebacks aren't everything.

Only stat I found.

When tied or down 8 points or fewer in the 4th.

Brady 50-43
Vince Young 14-13
Luck 17-18
Manning 47-46
Wilson 21-23-1

I don't think it list all time just recent QBs.

Also found this though stats need to be updated

Advanced NFL Stats Community: Comeback Wins/Losses: The Comeback Kings

Basically comes down to this. Most clutch QBs are

Brady, Unitas, Montana, Elway where the comeback Gods and were great in % of comebacks and amount. They have the huge sample size of consistently doing it.

With a smaller sample size but impressive comeback % Theismann was very good. Jack Plummer was too but i will attribute this to a smaller sample size more than him being good at comebacks.

Daryle Lamonica is interested. Too bad he didn't get to play more games he might have been one of the all time greats if he got to.