Article: New England Patriots' Randy Moss still great when he wants to be

[MoLewisrocks]

MO, the answer could be... he's not perfect. I mean yea he's the best, but that doesn't mean we should expect him to come up with the ball 100% of the time. Hell the greatest hitter ever in baseball failed 60% of the time.

Last year there wasn't as much focus on Moss early on, there wasn't as many DBs making really good plays, there wasn't a young QB trying to learn, there weren't as many inaccurate throws. I mean aside from the drop in the last game in the endzone, he hasn't really been at fault for the unsuccessful attempts. No one is accusing Welker of ANYTHING but he dropped an easy catch and fell down without contact last game.

If Moss didn't carry the reputation he has, this would not be an issue at all IMO.

Moss also carries a $9M per contract average and last season he was unbeatable against double and triple teams out of the gate...singled he was a slam dunk unless Brady underthrew him by a full 5 yards... He's been responsible for as many of the missed connections as the kid QB, probably more. Playmakers are expected to make plays - that's why they command the big bucks. The yips are contageous under pressure. Both Welker and Moss started the season on slightly unsettling sour notes, and that was with Brady under center. Welker has had fewer since.

PS this isn't baseball. Players who fail 60% of the time in football end up flipping hamburgers...

 

[emoney_33]

Feel free to show me the the film convincing me that Welker has half-assed his blocking, dropped multiple passes and taken multiple plays off, in multiple games. I've seen Moss do that this year. I haven't seen Welker doing the same thing.

You have not seen Moss taking plays off. Sorry. You just haven't. Failing and taking a play off is different.

I pointed out a slew of players who don't have Moss' reputation and have been called out. At least read the posts before writing silliness like this.

And I said Moss wouldn't be called out for the DB making a good play or "looking" like he isn't trying hard without his reputation. Nothing to do with other nonsensical "calling out" of players.

Actually, people did criticize Morris for that. As I pointed out when I made the list, it was a PARTIAL list.

Well it wasn't his fault, Pollard went low. My point is Moss wouldn't only be criticized but people would hold a grudge and continuously bring it up. But this is a stupid hypothetical so I'll forget I said it.

Randy Moss has dropped, or failed to come down with, multiple passes that he should have made the play on, in multiple games. You may not like to hear that about your binkie, but it's just the way it is. His lousy play in San Diego played no small part in the team's loss, and his failures in the Rams game could have cost the team a win. He's considered the best receiver in the game by many here, including myself. With such a lofty status comes higher standards. Frankly, I don't know when catching the ball when the pass is catchable became too much to ask of Randy Moss in your eyes, but it'll always be high on my list for my favorite team's #1 receiver.

Randy Moss has had a few plays broken up by great plays from the DB. I don't care who you are, if that DB gets his hand in the exact right position and knocks the ball out, you aren't catching it. PERIOD. No ifs, ands or buts about it. You can't blame anyone really, just give the DB credit.

But you want Moss to assume the DB will make an amazing play and do something that decreases his chances of catching the ball just so the DB doesn't make a play.

Other from the drop that should have been an easy TD in the endzone in the Rams game, give me some plays where he should have done something different. And tell me what he should have done different that will guarantee the DB doesn't make a good play.

You don't dog on Welker for dropping perfect passes but you dog on Moss for the DB making a great play. But it has nothing to do with his reputation

 

[dhamz]

Moss is certainly not above criticism and has defintiely struggled at times this year.

But if the response to it has nothing to do with reputation, why does every time Moss doesn't execute always seem to get framed as a lack of effort on his part? Is there any other player on the team whose failings are always chalked up to lack of effort?

 

[emoney_33]

Moss also carries a $9M per contract average and last season he was unbeatable against double and triple teams out of the gate...singled he was a slam dunk unless Brady underthrew him by a full 5 yards... He's been responsible for as many of the missed connections as the kid QB, probably more. Playmakers are expected to make plays - that's why they command the big bucks. The yips are contageous under pressure. Both Welker and Moss started the season on slightly unsettling sour notes, and that was with Brady under center. Welker has had fewer since.

I am going to argue that the DB has been responsible for all but 1 or 2 of the missed connections. They played it like BB teaches it, the WR has to come down with the ball it isn't gonna stay out of your reach forever. I can concede to Moss being held to a higher standard. I'm more concerned about the thought that some people have of Moss' effort being the reason for some of these failures.

PS this isn't baseball. Players who fail 60% of the time in football end up flipping hamburgers...

Yea terrible analogy by me. I just meant to show that no one is going to succeed 100% of the time and sometimes the failures are strung together in a row to make it seem worse.

 

[Deus Irae]

You have not seen Moss taking plays off. Sorry. You just haven't. Failing and taking a play off is different.

No, I've seen him take plays off. Sorry, I have.

And I said Moss wouldn't be called out for the DB making a good play or "looking" like he isn't trying hard without his reputation. Nothing to do with other nonsensical "calling out" of players.

And I pointed out other players who've been called out. They've been called out for various reasons, including effort. What you call 'nonsensical' is something known as reality.

Randy Moss has had a few plays broken up by great plays from the DB. I don't care who you are, if that DB gets his hand in the exact right position and knocks the ball out, you aren't catching it. PERIOD. No ifs, ands or buts about it. You can't blame anyone really, just give the DB credit.

But you want Moss to assume the DB will make an amazing play and do something that decreases his chances of catching the ball just so the DB doesn't make a play.

Other from the drop that should have been an easy TD in the endzone in the Rams game, give me some plays where he should have done something different. And tell me what he should have done different that will guarantee the DB doesn't make a good play.

Again, this discussion has taken place before. You were wrong then, you are wrong now, and you'll be wrong when you make the same erroenous arguments in the future. For crying out loud, you just ignored the interception that resulted because Moss let the ball bounce off of him in the Rams game. And, by the way, a DB sticking his hand in to knock the ball away when the WR doesn't shield the ball from the DB and lets the ball come to him rather than going up to get it is NOT an amazing play.

You don't dog on Welker for dropping perfect passes but you dog on Moss for the DB making a great play. But it has nothing to do with his reputation

You do realize that Welker is having a tremendous season so far, and Moss isn't, right? While Welker is on his way to tying records, and is third in the NFL in receptions, Moss is failing to come down with passes because he's not jumping for the football, and is getting his fellow receiver drilled because he's making half-assed blocking attempts. It has absolutely nothing to do with reputation, and everything to do with what I'm seeing on the field.

 

[Deus Irae]

Moss is certainly not above criticism and has defintiely struggled at times this year.

But if the response to it has nothing to do with reputation, why does every time Moss doesn't execute always seem to get framed as a lack of effort on his part? Is there any other player on the team whose failings are always chalked up to lack of effort?

Seymour, for one.

 

[emoney_33]

No, I've seen him take plays off. Sorry, I have.

Reggie Wayne takes plays off, Wes Welker does too, and so did Jerry Rice. Yes I have seen it.

And I pointed out other players who've been called out. They've been called out for various reasons, including effort. What you call 'nonsensical' is something known as reality.

Who has been called out for effort?

Again, this discussion has taken place before. You were wrong then, you are wrong now, and you'll be wrong when you make the same erroenous arguments in the future. For crying out loud, you just ignored the interception that resulted because Moss let the ball bounce off of him in the Rams game. And, by the way, a DB sticking his hand in to knock the ball away when the WR doesn't shield the ball from the DB and lets the ball come to him rather than going up to get it is NOT an amazing play.

You have been wrong since day one on this Moss-effort issue, not I. Moss "let the ball bounce off of him"? Without reviewing the play (because I think/thought the DB got a piece of the ball), I'll go with the thought that was Moss' screwup. So that's 2 in the Rams game that were his "fault". Did he drop/miss those because he didn't try for them?

When the hell has he been able to shield the ball from the DB and not done that, where he would have/has done that in the past? You are making stuff up here.

You do realize that Welker is having a tremendous season so far, and Moss isn't, right? While Welker is on his way to tying records, and is third in the NFL in receptions, Moss is failing to come down with passes because he's not jumping for the football, and is getting his fellow receiver drilled because he's making half-assed blocking attempts. It has absolutely nothing to do with reputation, and everything to do with what I'm seeing on the field.

You do realize Welker's abilities fits Cassel's early abilities better than Moss' does right? You cannot show me a play this year that Moss failed by "not jumping" that he would have jumped for in the past.

The half-assed blocking attempt is funny. He's not a good blocker, WE KNOW THIS. Let's just dog him all year for it as if we expect him to be a great blocker.

You trade in everything Moss has done this year and put Gaffney in those exact plays and outcomes. No way are you dogging Gaffney like that, so yes it is absolutely due to his reputation and your expectations.

You might want to check out how other top receivers (including Moss in the past) play the deep ball, before you go accusing Moss of dogging it and not giving full effort.

Brady is the greatest QB ever and he shouldn't throw many INTs, when he has a game where he throws 3 or 4, do you dog him and claim a lack of effort? If he had Moss' reputation you might.



Whatever though, you are obviously going to remain stubborn in your blind bashing of Moss based on his reputation and his body language in your eyes. No way does anyone else without Moss' reputation get this level of criticism for plays that the DB makes. Absolutely amazing.

 

[emoney_33]

Seymour, for one.

Seymour has been accused of lack of effort every time he fails? REALLY? By whom?

 

[dakevdude]

You do realize that Welker is having a tremendous season so far, and Moss isn't, right? While Welker is on his way to tying records, and is third in the NFL in receptions, Moss is failing to come down with passes because he's not jumping for the football, and is getting his fellow receiver drilled because he's making half-assed blocking attempts. It has absolutely nothing to do with reputation, and everything to do with what I'm seeing on the field.

Meh...Moss sucks...he's overrated and not really a factor in games. The Patriots dont need him. I'm sure if Moss had signed with another team this year and Tom Brady went down, we would still be in a great shape because of the Patriots vaunted offense that includes Cassel, Welker, and Gaffney. Opponent defensive coaches worse nightmare...I'm sure Deus and Mo will agree with me on this...

 

[Deus Irae]

Reggie Wayne takes plays off, Wes Welker does too, and so did Jerry Rice. Yes I have seen it.

Why do you keep moving the goalposts of your argument? Your point in the particular quote I responded to was that Moss wasn't taking plays off, not that he isn't alone.

You have been wrong since day one on this Moss-effort issue, not I. Moss "let the ball bounce off of him"? Without reviewing the play (because I think/thought the DB got a piece of the ball), I'll go with the thought that was Moss' screwup. So that's 2 in the Rams game that were his "fault". Did he drop/miss those because he didn't try for them?

When the hell has he been able to shield the ball from the DB and not done that, where he would have/has done that in the past? You are making stuff up here.

I'm sorry, I thought you understood football and were just being ridiculously over-the-top in your defense of Moss. I didn't realize that you didn't understand the game.

You do realize Welker's abilities fits Cassel's early abilities better than Moss' does right? You cannot show me a play this year that Moss failed by "not jumping" that he would have jumped for in the past.

Sure I can. It happened twice in San Diego, as you know and just refuse to admit.

The half-assed blocking attempt is funny. He's not a good blocker, WE KNOW THIS. Let's just dog him all year for it as if we expect him to be a great blocker.

Wait.... how do we KNOW this? Your argument was that we shouldn't be using reputation. Well, you're now using that reputation to defend crappy blocking. Which is it? Are we able to use reputation or not?

You trade in everything Moss has done this year and put Gaffney in those exact plays and outcomes. No way are you dogging Gaffney like that, so yes it is absolutely due to his reputation and your expectations.

Nonsense. I don't dog Gaffney in the same situations because he's not as good a receiver as Randy Moss. I don't expect Matt Cassel to make every play Tom Brady can make, and I don't expect Gaffney to make every play Moss can make.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Until TB is back, nothing that RM will look like 2007 because... well... there is no TB at QB.

However, the Pats are 5-2 and RM is still on pace for a nice season by measure of the previous 88 year history of the NFL.

Besides, it usually takes 3 years for a passing game to reach full efficiency. Maybe we should just be happy with the record, some good football, and watching the weekly improvements.

Also, we should be very thankful for no Spygate.

 

[BradyManny]

Throw me in EMoney's camp, I've had this discussion to certain degrees in various threads. But I think any harping on Moss' dropped balls or balls he didn't catch is - whether conscious or otherwise - too much informed by the reputation that he carried with him when coming to NE.

Welker has dropped a few passes this season as well when he was sure handed last year, but b/c Welker didn't have Moss' "baggage" (aka, bogus & sensationalized media created persona), it's not a big deal.

As said in another thread a) the opposing DB is getting paid, too b) these receivers are catching balls from a new QB, it'll take time, not to mention they just went from one of the best pass throwers ever to a guy with very little experience, who, granted, is doing a good job filling in.

Or to put it another way, Moss is a pretty big reason why we are 5-2 without Tom Brady. He's earning his check. Has he made every play? No. But he's high on my list of credit for the current success, so I'm not going to spend much time worrying about a play or two that didn't turn out the way we expected.

 

[emoney_33]

Why do you keep moving the goalposts of your argument? Your point in the particular quote I responded to was that Moss wasn't taking plays off, not that he isn't alone.

The goalposts have not even slightly budged...

I'm sorry, I thought you understood football and were just being ridiculously over-the-top in your defense of Moss. I didn't realize that you didn't understand the game.

Really deus... come on now.

Sure I can. It happened twice in San Diego, as you know and just refuse to admit.

No sorry, neither of those plays were plays where he would normally jump for the ball. This is fact, not opinion. He played those balls similarly to how he has played those types in the past. One Jammer turned around at the right time and got a piece of, the other Moss caught and Jammer got his hand on while he was tucking it to his side and knocked it out.

Slowing down, shielding the DB with your body and putting your hands up at the last instant to make the catch is a tactic Randy Moss (and many other receivers) has used a lot throughout his career. However when a pass is broken up you think he shouldn't use this tactic? Hindsight... sick!

Wait.... how do we KNOW this? Your argument was that we shouldn't be using reputation. Well, you're now using that reputation to defend crappy blocking. Which is it? Are we able to use reputation or not?

Reputation leading to false assumptions and facts based on past performance are two completely different things. It's not a myth or falsely created idea that Moss is not a good blocker. It IS a myth that Moss takes plays off whenever he feels like it and doesn't try unless he feels like it.

Nonsense. I don't dog Gaffney in the same situations because he's not as good a receiver as Randy Moss. I don't expect Matt Cassel to make every play Tom Brady can make, and I don't expect Gaffney to make every play Moss can make.

Well at least you admit that expectations plays a part in it all. Now you just have to understand that "jumping" for the ball is not the only way to catch a deep pass and whether to jump or not depends on a ton of different factors, which didn't exist on the Jammer plays BTW.

 

[dakevdude]

Nonsense. I don't dog Gaffney in the same situations because he's not as good a receiver as Randy Moss. I don't expect Matt Cassel to make every play Tom Brady can make, and I don't expect Gaffney to make every play Moss can make.

LMAO...and there you have it...you just lost your argument that some people on this thread have been pointing out....

The reason Moss gets more attention when he does something wrong is because Moss is an elite player. Lets point out every little failures in details shall we?

He did have a bad game last week. This is true and sounds ridiculous at the same time because the dude did have over 100 yards and was a main factor in the winning drive. But nevermind that...he sucked because he should have done better...

Lets admit it Deus...you basically gets a hard one betchin about Moss...that's all it is...

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady is the greatest QB ever and he shouldn't throw many INTs, when he has a game where he throws 3 or 4, do you dog him and claim a lack of effort? If he had Moss' reputation you might.

Whatever though, you are obviously going to remain stubborn in your blind bashing of Moss based on his reputation and his body language in your eyes. No way does anyone else without Moss' reputation get this level of criticism for plays that the DB makes. Absolutely amazing.

You're being absolutely silly. First of all, we KNOW that Moss doesn't go all out 100% of the time in 100% of the games. We know this because, if he did, he'd be the first player to do it in history: it would run contrary to human nature. We also know because Brady told us so, in very diplomatic fashion, even as he was defending Moss:

"We had 54 pass attempts in a game, and you go out and tell a world-class sprinter to run 50, 50-yard dashes, the idea is 'you better have it when you need it.' And Randy is a smart player and he knows when he needs it," Brady said.

Tom Brady backs Randy Moss - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

You keep confusing valid criticism with unwarranted attacks, because you're so hyped up on defending Moss. His effort has simply not been 100% every game this year, even on plays where the ball was thrown his way. That doesn't mean that he's been dogging it, and it doesn't mean that he's lazy, and it doesn't mean that someone needs to beat him until he comes around. It does mean that he's not been giving his very best at a time when that's precisely what has been needed from him. One can reasonably question why that is (injury, post Brady stress disorder, etc...), but claiming that the idea that he's given less than 100% is untrue is just ludicrous in the face of what we've seen on the field.

It's one thing to give 50% or 60% on a play that's designed to have nothing to do with you. It's another to do that when the ball's in the air coming your way and you're Randy Moss on a team where Matt Cassel is in for Tom Brady.

 

[emoney_33]

You keep confusing valid criticism with unwarranted attacks, because you're so hyped up on defending Moss. His effort has simply not been 100% every game this year, even on plays where the ball was thrown his way. That doesn't mean that he's been dogging it, and it doesn't mean that he's lazy, and it doesn't mean that someone needs to beat him until he comes around. It does mean that he's not been giving his very best at a time when that's precisely what has been needed from him. One can reasonably question why that is (injury, post Brady stress disorder, etc...), but claiming that the idea that he's given less than 100% is untrue is just ludicrous in the face of what we've seen on the field.

It's one thing to give 50% or 60% on a play that's designed to have nothing to do with you. It's another to do that when the ball's in the air coming your way and you're Randy Moss on a team where Matt Cassel is in for Tom Brady.

This is where we disagree the most. Your opinion is that the plays Moss has missed is due to lack of 100% effort on that specific play. My opinion is that it was due to great DB play (along with imperfect throws obviously).

Why didn't he make that catch in the endzone against the Rams? I dunno, but to assume it was lack of effort is wrong IMO. I know you wouldn't assume lack of effort for Welker because Welker doesn't have the same reputation. And Welker dropped an EASIER catch.

Sometimes you fail, no matter how good you are or how hard you try, sometimes you just fail. Those Jammer plays in the SD game, Moss played them right, Jammer played them better. Redo that 100 times, Jammer makes those plays 3-5 times maximum on the same exact plays.

I am and have been arguing that it is not lack of effort to be blamed for these missed opportunities. If you replay the throws in the SD game, let Brady throw the exact pass the exact way, Moss will play it the same every time. Which means he won't JUMP for those balls, he will slow down and throw his arms up at the last second.

He did the same thing against the Bills last year (remember Greer leaping so high and still missing). He misjudged the ball a little on the play too which required an amazing one handed catch to make up for it, which he succeeded in.

It's NOT EFFORT.

 

[Deus Irae]

LMAO...and there you have it...you just lost your argument that some people on this thread have been pointing out....

The reason Moss gets more attention when he does something wrong is because Moss is an elite player. Lets point out every little failures in detailed shall we?

He did have a bad game last week. This is true and sound ridiculous at the same time because the dude did have over 100 yards and was a main factor for the winning drive. But nevermind that...he sucked because he should have done better...

Lets admit it Deus...you basically gets a hard one betchin about Moss...that's all it is...

Are you all huffing today, or something?


http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/54744-pats-looking-randy-moss.html#post411966
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/54744-pats-looking-randy-moss.html#post411914
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/54744-pats-looking-randy-moss-page2.html#post412217
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/54744-pats-looking-randy-moss-page2.html#post412227
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/85351-anyone-nervous-about-moss-effectiveness.html#post928691

I've been happy with the Moss move from the beginning. I'm simply not willing to ignore reality just because he's on the team.

 

[Deus Irae]

The goalposts have not even slightly budged...

.....Really deus... come on now.


...No sorry, neither of those plays were plays where he would normally jump for the ball. This is fact, not opinion. He played those balls similarly to how he has played those types in the past. One Jammer turned around at the right time and got a piece of, the other Moss caught and Jammer got his hand on while he was tucking it to his side and knocked it out.

Slowing down, shielding the DB with your body and putting your hands up at the last instant to make the catch is a tactic Randy Moss (and many other receivers) has used a lot throughout his career. However when a pass is broken up you think he shouldn't use this tactic? Hindsight... sick!

...Reputation leading to false assumptions and facts based on past performance are two completely different things. It's not a myth or falsely created idea that Moss is not a good blocker. It IS a myth that Moss takes plays off whenever he feels like it and doesn't try unless he feels like it.

....Well at least you admit that expectations plays a part in it all. Now you just have to understand that "jumping" for the ball is not the only way to catch a deep pass and whether to jump or not depends on a ton of different factors, which didn't exist on the Jammer plays BTW.

Silliness like this is why homers are just as bad as the Chicken Littles.

 

[signbabybrady]

You're being absolutely silly. First of all, we KNOW that Moss doesn't go all out 100% of the time in 100% of the games. We know this because, if he did, he'd be the first player to do it in history: it would run contrary to human nature. We also know because Brady told us so, in very diplomatic fashion, even as he was defending Moss:

See the line I bolded above. SO what you are saying is that Moss is a scumbag for dogging it when everyone in NFL history has dogged it.




Now you can chose to believe me if you want but I have objectively been looking for this this year and I can honestly say that I am more impressed with Randy's effort than I thought I would. Obviously his past reputation speaks for itself so when people began critizing him for it this year when Tom went down I decided to make a better effort of watching him on run plays and can honestly say that he has not appeared to take one run play off.

He has been beat on plenty of run plays but the effort always seemed to be there. Keep in mind trying to watch him more does not mean I watched everytime. But effort aside I can honestly say that he has had more good blocking plays than bad ones. On several plays I turned to my father and asked if he saw Moss block on the play becuase he has had some nice blocks that spring some good runs and screens. And there was one in particular that really got me going becuase he had made a nice initial block and came off the block perfectly and managed to chip the next guy and help the play go a few more yards.

So Dues here is my challenge to you. I think most of us can agree that if a WR is dogging it that he will dog it more on run plays than pass plays for obvious reasons. SO I challenge you to find lets say 5 plays from this season where Randy is dogging it on a run play. and if you want to be even more solid in proving your case find 5 run plays to his side where he dogs it.


Video would obviously be best but feel free to describe the play but be as detailed as you can (time of game and situation so we can recall what you speak of and potentially rebutt.

Now the challenge for you is to find plays where he cleary is dogging it and not just getting beat.

I very highly doubt you can rise to this challenge as I did not expect to be impressed by his blocking when I started my extra watching of this.

 

[emoney_33]

Silliness like this is why homers are just as bad as the Chicken Littles.

Yup my points are silliness and I'm a homer who is just as bad as NSA, B2M etc...

Forget facts, forget football, your argument is now "Unless you jump for the ball you are not giving full effort". Awesome. There is no more to playing WR in the NFL than jumping for the ball. Let's throw out facts and football discussion. Deus wants you to f'ing jump for the ball, Randy... SO JUMP!