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And, We Have Our Offense

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n6249c

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We had STers-Only on the roster last season, yet our STs outside of Folk were still horrible.

A lot of that had to do with the incompetent coaching they were given, but the coach is the same unfortunately, so maybe this season we should try having fewer STOs and just use the kids there while they learn their pro positions... Can't be any worse...
So you think having the kids trying to learn two things instead of just focusing on one will come out better than not confusing and distracting them with different unrelated activities?

Splitting their time between two things can’t be any worse than spending it all on the one that is their speciality?

Really?
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
So you think having the kids trying to learn two things instead of just focusing on one will come out better than not confusing and distracting them with different unrelated activities?

Splitting their time between two things can’t be any worse than spending it all on the one that is their speciality?

Really?

Yes, really. Did you not watch our Special olympics Teams last year?

Not having the less-than-useless Brandon the King in the building any longer will help a lot (can't ****ing believe this stiff was cut a check here for Seven ****ing Years); but I believe it's also time to decide between Justin Bethel & Cody Davis as well...
 

cupofjoe1962

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Considering a few of the usual suspects are in this thread, I would like to point out that our WR could still be an obstacle

I posted a list earlier that had us at #29, but very few agreed and @Ian mentioned he wants a list to include a write up.
I just found a more recent list “with words”.
Guess who is #29?


I am not looking to rehash old arguments, I am just posting this to prove I am not alone questioning the quality of our receivers & this is an offense thread.

I am high on our RB. If we lose Harris next year, we have depth.
 
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WhatJustHappened

On the Game Day Roster
This offense has a lot of solid pass catchers, I think people are writing them off far too early because they don't have a "Stud".
Good Luck trying to contain Aggy and Thornton down the field with Bourne and/or Meyers/Parker/Smith closer to the line with Henry out there as well... nevermind the solid RBS..
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
This offense has a lot of solid pass catchers, I think people are writing them off far too early because they don't have a "Stud".
Good Luck trying to contain Aggy and Thornton down the field with Bourne and/or Meyers/Parker/Smith closer to the line with Henry out there as well... nevermind the solid RBS..

Having a healthy white back as a dump down option is going to be a huge asset for jones!

White is very slippery and can beat most linebackers one on one.
 

patfanken

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A couple of Idle thoughts on the offense

1. I don't give a F#ck about who is the "#1" WR. For the ENTIRE BB and Brady era we had a true #1 WR (Randy Moss) for 3 seasons and only 2 seasons with Brady. Did you all forget that we have been ENORMOUSLY successful for all this time WITHOUT a #1 WR? It begs the question why so many fans who purport to be Pats fans constantly demand one? To quote Andy Dufresne (shawshank redemption) "are you just being OBTUSE"

Last season with the WRs we had, We had 3857 passing yds which ranked 14th in the league and only 5 rankings less than the LA Rams who had a "superstar QB the best WR in the league plus OBJ etc. But the fact is NONE of that matters to me. Another thing Bill has preached to us for the last 20 odd years is that LAST year's team mean nothing. There is roughly a 33% turnover in teams every year. Sometimes it's a little more, sometimes it's bit less. He also preached to us that EVERY year the team has to reestablish their team chemistry and every year they have to establish a new identity. So what I look at is ARE they going to be better or worse in talent at each position and for that reason, I am optimistic that this offense is going to be more talented and should be better. The stuff about chemistry and identity will only begin at TC and cna take half a season to see if both develop and whether it will be good or bad.

Let me break it down by position

QB - EVERYBODY on the offense will be positively affected by the expected improvement of Mac Jones. I expect better command of the offense, slightly better velocity on his ball, a bit more mobility in the pocket, and just the gain a good one will get from having a few thousand reps under his belt. I wouldn't be surprised if they keep 3 QB's on the roster with Hoyer back as mentor and initial back up. I think they will hope to get Zappe to the PS, but if they don't think he'll make it keep on the 53 at least for the first part of the season. Hoyer did well in his few opportunities. - better

WR's. Bourne and Aghular, should ALL be incrementally better for their added experience in this system as well as their timing with the QB. Meyers has improved EVERY year he's been here. His role may diminish a bit, but he is great depth at multiple positions. THEN you add the 2 additions of Parker and Thornton we get the big WR we were hoping for when we drafted Harry plus some world class speed in Thornton with enough talent at WR to allow him to slowly be integrated into the offense as a situational guy rather than have him HAVE to be an impact player right away. - better

TE's Henry was clearly AS good as advertised and will slightly improve because the experience he had with the offense AND because his QB will be better. Smith we all HOPE will improve and should in his 2nd year.. I think we will see him as a TE, WB, and FB this season. This versatility will add to his value and open things up for him. Assasi gives us an experienced #3 as depth. - better

OL - I'm VERY excited in this area. This OL gives us an interesting combination, VERY athletic on the left side, and VERY powerful on the right.
I rewatched a bunch of Wynn film this off season. In those instances where he was beaten I thought it was more often caused by him being over extended at times which led to him being off balanced. This is VERY fixable and hopefully is what he and the coaching staff will be working on. What I didn't see was him being powered over. He's purported to be too small to play LT because of his size. The man IS still 300+ lbs and the primary rushers he is going to continue to see week to week are about 240-60. But they also are going to be freakishly athletic and fast. All the more reason to have a freakishly athletic LT. Injuries ARE a real issue, but they can continue or disappear. Who knows.

After watching that clip on Strange pointing out just what an athletic freak Strange actually is, I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing him at TC and in the initial PS games. I imagine there WILL be a period of time where he has to get used to playing against NFL calibre players. If I had my choice I would match him with Barmore every chance I got. But I'm confident that this kid will be be a big upgrade on Karras both as a starter and possible back up at C. Also looking forward to seeing what Dejardin has. I hoping he will be as an upgrade on Ferentz as a back up. Andrews has proven to be a Quality starting C in this league. A guy who can anchor the middle on pass rushes and athletic enough to get to the 2nd level in the run game.

The Left side will be likely manned by Owenu and Brown both big bruising brawlers that can bully DL's. The Pats had a top 10 rushing attack last season (8th) a majority of those runs came over the right side. Whether Owenu can be as good as Mason remains to be seen. We know that he's a decent OLman who can move out to OT when he has to. We also know that the Pats really like him, but time will tell. Brown has had limited injury issues as well. We'll just have to see. Part of any successful season depends on luck with injuries. We can only see how it goes as it goes.

Depth - You know I'm OK with what it is right now. I think there are enough decent guys between the rookies and vets to find 4 more guys to round out our OL depth out of the roughly 8-10 guys they have now. and of course vet FA's are always a possibility before TC. Bottom line, this line COULD be better than last year's edition. Just too many question marks right now -?

RB- I LOVE the combination of Harris and Stevenson - I'm really excited to see what Strong can do. He adds a skill set that our RB room doesn't have. All 3 of those guys are better than average receivers as well, which makes me wonder about James White. And while he's been a wonder as a 3rd down receiver for MANY years and critical to our success over the years, but he's never been a good RB in the ground game and after the catch. 2020 was a down year for him and 2021 ended with a very serious injury. I just wonder between the fact we have guys who can catch the ball, the injuries and age if this might be the year he might become a redundancy one we might not be able to afford to keep on. Of course James White has pretty much defied expectations for many years. So who knows. Bottom line our run game looks to be in great shape for this season - better

In the end I expect us to be better in talent all over the offense with the only question being how the OL gels together and that's more a question of experience and not some much the talent. At this point of the season I have MANY more questions about the defense than the O. But that's an Idle thought for another time.
 
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mgteich

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My BOTTOM LINE is that we are likely to better in all phases of the offense, certainly in the offense as a whole. Let's review a bit, focusing on changes compared to the last part of 2021. Parker, White and Strange should be upgrades, with backup OG being the only downgrade (as of now).

QB
This unit should be at least as good as in 2021, possibly with upgrade in the backup position.

WR: serious upgrade
IN: Parker
OUT: Harry
There is no need to count on Thornton, although he could be a 2022 contributor.

RB: serious upgrade
IN: White, Strong
OUT: Bolden, Taylor
(I don't count on Montgomery; he may or may not make the team as a STer.)

TE:
This unit should be at least as good as in 2021. Smith might see some time as h-back or FB.
I don't count on contributions from any backups, who should be inactive unless one of the starters is injured.

OL Starters: likely as good as in 2021
IN: Strange, Onwenu
OUT: Karras, Mason

OL Backups: worse in only one position
2021 OT players are all back.
2021 OC backup is back, but hopefully will be upgraded, from someone in camp or from a minor free agent.
Backup OG is the one downgrade; Desjardins or another camp player may be OK as a backup OG, or we could sign a free agent.
 
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Tunescribe

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This could be a strong unit, no real stud but alot for mac to work with. White and henry are good ‘security blankets’. If Thornton emerges as a legit big play threat even better.

Run game was already a strength.

There is no real need for a "stud" if you have an array of near-studs to work with and the Pats have multiples of those. The offense should be balanced and able to employ death by a thousand cuts. The question is whether it's explosive enough to come from behind in the fourth quarter by more than one score. That's yet to be confirmed but with the new additions I am cautiously optimistic.
 

PATSYLICIOUS

Pro Bowl Player
There is no real need for a "stud" if you have an array of near-studs to work with and the Pats have multiples of those. The offense should be balanced and able to employ death by a thousand cuts. The question is whether it's explosive enough to come from behind in the fourth quarter by more than one score. That's yet to be confirmed but with the new additions I am cautiously optimistic.

Im not worried about our ability to come from behind. The offense does well enough when things are clicking. We probably would have had big comebacks on indy, buffalo, and miami late in the regular season if our defense made the necessary stops at the end.

The place having no stud hurts is when the offense gets into a funk and you dont have that guy to bail you out. Its a heavily precision based offense so we’ll have those lulls when we aren’t locked in. It was evidenced last year with three 50 pt explosions and then struggling to score at all over some halves. And of course in the playoffs/clutch moments it can be huge having that guy. Overall I think the offense could be top 5 if we get more consistency vs the extreme highs and lows, maybe a leap from mac can accomplish that.
 

UrbanCowboy

HoustonPatsFan
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A couple of Idle thoughts on the offense

1. I don't give a F#ck about who is the "#1" WR. For the ENTIRE BB and Brady era we had a true #1 WR (Randy Moss) for 3 seasons and only 2 seasons with Brady. Did you all forget that we have been ENORMOUSLY successful for all this time WITHOUT a #1 WR? It begs the question why so many fans who purport to be Pats fans constantly demand one? To quote Andy Dufresne (shawshank redemption) "are you just being OBTUSE"

Last season with the WRs we had, We had 3857 passing yds which ranked 14th in the league and only 5 rankings less than the LA Rams who had a "superstar QB the best WR in the league plus OBJ etc. But the fact is NONE of that matters to me. Another thing Bill has preached to us for the last 20 odd years is that LAST year's team mean nothing. There is roughly a 33% turnover in teams every year. Sometimes it's a little more, sometimes it's bit less. He also preached to us that EVERY year the team has to reestablish their team chemistry and every year they have to establish a new identity. So what I look at is ARE they going to be better or worse in talent at each position and for that reason, I am optimistic that this offense is going to be more talented and should be better. The stuff about chemistry and identity will only begin at TC and cna take half a season to see if both develop and whether it will be good or bad.

Let me break it down by position

QB - EVERYBODY on the offense will be positively affected by the expected improvement of Mac Jones. I expect better command of the offense, slightly better velocity on his ball, a bit more mobility in the pocket, and just the gain a good one will get from having a few thousand reps under his belt. I wouldn't be surprised if they keep 3 QB's on the roster with Hoyer back as mentor and initial back up. I think they will hope to get Zappe to the PS, but if they don't think he'll make it keep on the 53 at least for the first part of the season. Hoyer did well in his few opportunities. - better

WR's. Bourne and Aghular, should ALL be incrementally better for their added experience in this system as well as their timing with the QB. Meyers has improved EVERY year he's been here. His role may diminish a bit, but he is great depth at multiple positions. THEN you add the 2 additions of Parker and Thornton we get the big WR we were hoping for when we drafted Harry plus some world class speed in Thornton with enough talent at WR to allow him to slowly be integrated into the offense as a situational guy rather than have him HAVE to be an impact player right away. - better

TE's Henry was clearly AS good as advertised and will slightly improve because the experience he had with the offense AND because his QB will be better. Smith we all HOPE will improve and should in his 2nd year.. I think we will see him as a TE, WB, and FB this season. This versatility will add to his value and open things up for him. Assasi gives us an experienced #3 as depth. - better

OL - I'm VERY excited in this area. This OL gives us an interesting combination, VERY athletic on the left side, and VERY powerful on the right.
I rewatched a bunch of Wynn film this off season. In those instances where he was beaten I thought it was more often caused by him being over extended at times which led to him being off balanced. This is VERY fixable and hopefully is what he and the coaching staff will be working on. What I didn't see was him being powered over. He's purported to be too small to play LT because of his size. The man IS still 300+ lbs and the primary rushers he is going to continue to see week to week are about 240-60. But they also are going to be freakishly athletic and fast. All the more reason to have a freakishly athletic LT. Injuries ARE a real issue, but they can continue or disappear. Who knows.

After watching that clip on Strange pointing out just what an athletic freak Strange actually is, I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing him at TC and in the initial PS games. I imagine there WILL be a period of time where he has to get used to playing against NFL calibre players. If I had my choice I would match him with Barmore every chance I got. But I'm confident that this kid will be be a big upgrade on Karras both as a starter and possible back up at C. Also looking forward to seeing what Dejardin has. I hoping he will be as an upgrade on Ferentz as a back up. Andrews has proven to be a Quality starting C in this league. A guy who can anchor the middle on pass rushes and athletic enough to get to the 2nd level in the run game.

The Left side will be likely manned by Owenu and Brown both big bruising brawlers that can bully DL's. The Pats had a top 10 rushing attack last season (8th) a majority of those runs came over the right side. Whether Owenu can be as good as Mason remains to be seen. We know that he's a decent OLman who can move out to OT when he has to. We also know that the Pats really like him, but time will tell. Brown has had limited injury issues as well. We'll just have to see. Part of any successful season depends on luck with injuries. We can only see how it goes as it goes.

Depth - You know I'm OK with what it is right now. I think there are enough decent guys between the rookies and vets to find 4 more guys to round out our OL depth out of the roughly 8-10 guys they have now. and of course vet FA's are always a possibility before TC. Bottom line, this line COULD be better than last year's edition. Just too many question marks right now -?

RB- I LOVE the combination of Harris and Stevenson - I'm really excited to see what Strong can do. He adds a skill set that our RB room doesn't have. All 3 of those guys are better than average receivers as well, which makes me wonder about James White. And while he's been a wonder as a 3rd down receiver for MANY years and critical to our success over the years, but he's never been a good RB in the ground game and after the catch. 2020 was a down year for him and 2021 ended with a very serious injury. I just wonder between the fact we have guys who can catch the ball, the injuries and age if this might be the year he might become a redundancy one we might not be able to afford to keep on. Of course James White has pretty much defied expectations for many years. So who knows. Bottom line our run game looks to be in great shape for this season - better

In the end I expect us to be better in talent all over the offense with the only question being how the OL gels together and that's more a question of experience and not some much the talent. At this point of the season I have MANY more questions about the defense than the O. But that's an Idle thought for another time.
Best post I've seen on this topic by a [Green] mile!
 

n6249c

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Im not worried about our ability to come from behind. The offense does well enough when things are clicking. We probably would have had big comebacks on indy, buffalo, and miami late in the regular season if our defense made the necessary stops at the end.

The place having no stud hurts is when the offense gets into a funk and you dont have that guy to bail you out. Its a heavily precision based offense so we’ll have those lulls when we aren’t locked in. It was evidenced last year with three 50 pt explosions and then struggling to score at all over some halves. And of course in the playoffs/clutch moments it can be huge having that guy. Overall I think the offense could be top 5 if we get more consistency vs the extreme highs and lows, maybe a leap from mac can accomplish that.
Thing is, coming back is not just the offense. Defense has to do its part and keep the opponents from continuing to score. And the need for a comeback shows that both offense and defense have not done their job by letting the opponents build a lead. So the concerns need to be on both sides of the ball.
 

One-If-By-Sea

In the Starting Line-Up
Thing is, coming back is not just the offense. Defense has to do its part and keep the opponents from continuing to score. And the need for a comeback shows that both offense and defense have not done their job by letting the opponents build a lead. So the concerns need to be on both sides of the ball.

Somewhat true. A comeback from a deficit of 17 -3 is different than a deficit of 45 -31 even though both situations are a 2 touchdown deficit.
 

PATSYLICIOUS

Pro Bowl Player
Thing is, coming back is not just the offense. Defense has to do its part and keep the opponents from continuing to score. And the need for a comeback shows that both offense and defense have not done their job by letting the opponents build a lead. So the concerns need to be on both sides of the ball.

The defense just wasnt clutch last year. Of course the last 2 bills games were really bad too. But it was concerning that even from an optimist point of view who thought they mostly had a very good year we failed to make stops in all but 2 big moments.

Week 1. fins got 2 first downs deep in their own territory, ran clock out
Saints. Failed to stop them after we pulled within 8
Tb . Allowed the go ahead fg
Dal. Gave up winning score
Texans. First clutch stop late , set us up for the winning score.
@buff. Second clutch stop late, the weather conditions should be noted as well.
Indy. Long run at the end instead of a stop
Buff. Dropped int, then td drive when we got within 5.
game in miami. Failed stop again

So out of 9 final drives in close games, the defense only came through in the clutch twice. One of those was the wind game which clearly affected the passing. Pretty odd since i felt they were strong most of the year. Then again It could be the same issue as on offense where we may not have that guy we could count on for the big moment, while having a good amount of talent overall . Or maybe the playcalling? Not sure tbh. The 2nd buffalo game was a microcosm of this where it felt like we forced alot of favorable 3rd and 4th down situations but allen outdid us almost every single time when it was all on the line. So close but so far away.

Overall i think it was a pretty talented team that could be outstanding when hitting on all cylinders but in the end didn’t have the ‘horses’ to consistently get it done or overcome obstacles when things went awry. I like the additions offensively given that onwenu can somewhat replace shaq and strange can be karras. Defensively its up in the air. I like the added depth at cb which was imo our biggest downfall last year and we have gotten faster/younger at lb but remains to be seen if we are ok there.
 
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