According to Caplan: Pats looking for DB help

[DaBruinz]

If I had to make a guess I would say:

Sanders cut due to salary and declining performance.
Merriweather cut due to numerous missed assignments and freelancing.
Butler cut due to inability to cover a fire hydrant.

I could understand Sanders being cut for "salary" if he was making 5 or 6 million. But at 2.8 million and with PLENTY of cap space, and with neither Sergio Brown nor James Ihedigbo looking that great in either of the last 2 games, this is still the most perplexing move.

As for your comments about Butler, he was covering just fine in the pre-season. It would help if you watched it, Ochmed.

 

[MassPats38]

I could understand Sanders being cut for "salary" if he was making 5 or 6 million. But at 2.8 million and with PLENTY of cap space, and with neither Sergio Brown nor James Ihedigbo looking that great in either of the last 2 games, this is still the most perplexing move.

Sanders seemed to be the "go to" guy when the secondary was misfiring last season, so I still do not claim to understand why he got the boot. He is a good tackler, and has good technique. He is certainly not the guy you want one-on-one in pass coverage against a top-tier receiver, but that typically was not required of him. The fact the Falcons immediately snapped him up did not help to resolve confusion over his release.

 

[ctpatsfan1]

I could understand Sanders being cut for "salary" if he was making 5 or 6 million. But at 2.8 million and with PLENTY of cap space, and with neither Sergio Brown nor James Ihedigbo looking that great in either of the last 2 games, this is still the most perplexing move.

As for your comments about Butler, he was covering just fine in the pre-season. It would help if you watched it, Ochmed.

I will give you he, Butler, looked improved over last year but he in no way could be considered "covering fine". He had moments where he covered fine but he far more moments where he was out of position and trailing a guy, a guy btw that is most likely not even in the league anymore. Butler was not nor would he ever be a quality DB in this league his overall skills were lacking, IMHO.

 

[mgteich]

Let's try to undersatand your position. We usually carry four safeties who can be counted on to play safety, plus a special teamer or two.

So, this year we try womething new. We carry only THREE safeties plus a special teamer.
We often use three safeties, so essentially we have ZERO backups, except having a corner move over to safety.

PAGE
Why isn't he here?

SANDERS
You say Sanders average at coverage, and declining against the run. IMHO, that is good enough to be a backup in case both Barret and Brown don't work out, or in case one is injured.
===============

CONCLUSIONS

A) There is a definite Plan B beyond expecting the mighty Ihedigbo to be our #4 safety.

B) IMHO, we are either interesting in signing a veteran or in moving Dowling or Arringot over to play safety.

Why are some ppl confused by this?

Meriweather sucked at coverage.

Butler SUCKED at coverage

Sanders was Average at coverage and was declining in run support.

Why are people confused? You dont keep crap around just because you need bodies. you dump and try to get something better.

 

[Ring 6]

After week 1. I think we sign him and Crumpler back. Because there wasn't an off-season to monitor these vets. BB probably leery whether they can make it thru the season or not. Doesn't want to guarantee their contract after 1 game.

That doesnt make any sesne.
We have 53 players, so we will be guaranteeing 53 contracts. How does it save money to guarantee the contract of a guy you are going to cut after game 1 to sign them? It can only cost more that way.
This week 1 guarantee is one of the most overblown misunderstood issues on this board. It really only comes into play when you have less than 53 players on the roster, and know the guy you would be picking up to fill an EMPTY spot won't be active week 1.

 

[fumbrunner]

That doesnt make any sesne.
We have 53 players, so we will be guaranteeing 53 contracts. How does it save money to guarantee the contract of a guy you are going to cut after game 1 to sign them? It can only cost more that way.
This week 1 guarantee is one of the most overblown misunderstood issues on this board. It really only comes into play when you have less than 53 players on the roster, and know the guy you would be picking up to fill an EMPTY spot won't be active week 1.

Unless you are releasing a guy making say $1M and signing a vet making 2 or 3 times that. It's not complicated. If they go after someone like Sharper, he will be making much more than the 53rd guy on the roster. Why sign a vet like that before week 1?

 

[Ring 6]

What makes you think the changes on the D line help against the run? This isn't a run first league and it hasn't been in some time. This D line is for hitting/hurrying the passer, which puts LESS pressure on the DB, not more.

For the other guy that hoped BB has a plan. The answer is yes.

If you cant stop the run it becomes a run first league for the teams playing against you.

 

[Ring 6]

Unless you are releasing a guy making say $1M and signing a vet making 2 or 3 times that. It's not complicated. If they go after someone like Sharper, he will be making much more than the 53rd guy on the roster. Why sign a vet like that before week 1?

Because you are signing him to win games, so you need him here asap. A few mill is pointless.

 

[mgteich]

Yup.
I think that we have found this out in parts of certain past seasons.

If you cant stop the run it becomes a run first league for the teams playing against you.

 

[patriot lifer]

That doesnt make any sesne.
We have 53 players, so we will be guaranteeing 53 contracts. How does it save money to guarantee the contract of a guy you are going to cut after game 1 to sign them? It can only cost more that way.
This week 1 guarantee is one of the most overblown misunderstood issues on this board. It really only comes into play when you have less than 53 players on the roster, and know the guy you would be picking up to fill an EMPTY spot won't be active week 1.

Question: What about if you still have 53 on the roster, then cut a player after week 1 (who theoretically then has his full year's contract guaranteed) and that player is picked up by another team. Then that player, let's say a rookie or second year player, has his contract being paid for by another team. Then the Pats would not be on the hook to pay the contract as another team will, and they would not have to guarantee the contract of the veteran acquired after week 1. Is that a beneficial scenario if the veteran is someone that you a) are unsure that he can play the full season and b) want him on the team because he's one of your best options, but isn't needed immediately for week 1.

 

[DaBruinz]

I will give you he, Butler, looked improved over last year but he in no way could be considered "covering fine". He had moments where he covered fine but he far more moments where he was out of position and trailing a guy, a guy btw that is most likely not even in the league anymore. Butler was not nor would he ever be a quality DB in this league his overall skills were lacking, IMHO.

Fine = JAG quality in my book.

If Butler was behind Bodden, McCourty, Arrington and Dowling, so be it. I can understand that.

It's the safety position I'm worried about more so. They have Chung there and that's it. Watching Ihedigbo and Brown taking reps there was basically telling the opposing QB to throw to the center of the field. I lost track of how many times Brown moved up and was closer to the LB on his side of the field than he was to the receiver that cut behind him.. Also, one play that really irked me was in short-yardage against the Giants where Brown, instead of going in and meeting the RB for the stop, just stood there and watched the RB leap the pile and get the 1st down before Brown decided to do anything..

Last year, I loved seeing Ihedigbo on the field because he was such a downgrade for the Jets... He was a major liability for them except on special teams.. I haven't seen anything from him that makes me believe he won't be a liability for the Pats if he sees regular snaps..

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Originally Posted by KDPPatsfan85
Darren Sharper to sign with Patriots????

If Sharper had anything left he'd still be in New Orleans.

And if Rodney Harrison had anything left in the tank San Diego would have signed him and not let him go

Its not uncommon for one team to think a guys done or he doesnt fit into their system anymore but can do well in another system for another team. Not saying thats the case with Sharper but it will be interesting to see what the plan is here.

 

[bagwell368]

If you think that having Wilfork Haynesworth and Carter as the starting D-line has nothing to do with stopping the run, then you know nothing about the 3-4 2-gap Defense that Belichick has been running every year here since 2003..

Did I say "nothing"? The emphasis has now been moved towards stopping/messing up the pass first, not the run. It's clear in the personal moves. It will be clear in the conduct of the games.

A change of emphasis is just that Mr. Johnson.

 

[DaBruinz]

Did I say "nothing"? The emphasis has now been moved towards stopping/messing up the pass first, not the run. It's clear in the personal moves. It will be clear in the conduct of the games.

A change of emphasis is just that Mr. Johnson.

Clearly someone who doesn't understand the game. The emphasis has not been moved to "stopping/messing up the pass first" as you claim. And that wasn't the emphasis the previous years either.

Clearly you don't know jack about the Pats 3-4 2 Gap and what it's designed to do. Please, do yourself a favor. Go and buy books like "Patriot Reign," Education of a Coach", Management Secrets of the New England Patriots (Vol1&2), and Football for Dummies. Read them. Then come back and start commenting. You might actually sound intelligent.

OH.. I've decided to be nice.

In the Pats 3-4 2 Gap, the object for the D-line to tie up the O-linemen and open up holes for the LBers to make plays. And it doesn't matter if it's against the pass or against the run. What BB has done is bring in some talented veterans in Ellis, Haynesworth and Carter that will allow him to run the 3-4 (or the 4-3) in a manner such that the D-line is more aggressive, but the LBers are still the ones who are supposed to be making the plays..

Even when running the 4-3, it's a 2 gap system. And what BB likes to do is mix up where the pressure comes from. Whether it be the ends with their hand down or from the LBer position with one of the ends dropping back into coverage.

It is and will continue to be about the defense reading what the offense is showing and then making the appropriate adjustments run vs. pass.

 

[DaBruinz]

Did I say "nothing"? The emphasis has now been moved towards stopping/messing up the pass first, not the run. It's clear in the personal moves. It will be clear in the conduct of the games.

A change of emphasis is just that Mr. Johnson.

One other thing. If you are going to state:

What makes you think the changes on the D line help against the run?

you really should understand what you are saying. Clearly you are saying that that you don't believe that the changes on the D-line don't help against the run. You trying to spin it to say anything else is a joke and completely laughable.

 

[Joker]

what I'm getting from your previous two posts is , as an example, Haynesworth is going to have two gap responsibilities? This has been bothering me all preseason, from when I went up to Foxboro and took in practices...I never saw Hayneworth in the 4/3 except for the preseason game on the tube and it LOOKED like he had one gap responsibility..

 

[DaBruinz]

what I'm getting from your previous two posts is , as an example, Haynesworth is going to have two gap responsibilities? This has been bothering me all preseason, from when I went up to Foxboro and took in practices...I never saw Hayneworth in the 4/3 except for the preseason game on the tube and it LOOKED like he had one gap responsibility..

Haynesworth had 2-gap responsibilities during the Giants game. Just like Wilfork did. Just like the other linemen did. The Pats were very aggressive with it. Something that did throw me off, but it was still 2 gap. And you could tell based on the assignments on running plays in particular.

 

[Gumby]

I could understand Sanders being cut for "salary" if he was making 5 or 6 million. But at 2.8 million and with PLENTY of cap space, and with neither Sergio Brown nor James Ihedigbo looking that great in either of the last 2 games, this is still the most perplexing move.

.

I don't say for sure he was cut for cap reasons; but don't dismiss that factor out of hand.

I don't think BB cares so much how much cap room he has available when he makes an individual player decision. He already made those decisions when he laid out his cap strategy.

From my understanding He(Pats) assigns cap value ranges to each position and to the depth of that position and that is what he is willing to pay for a level of talent. When Sanders started falling down the depth chart; he started to cost more than what his cap value was. That made him expendable.

All things being equal; I think BB would have rather held longer onto Sanders than BM; but he made the 'this guy did right by me; so I'll do right by him' decision and cut him early enough (and probably called his buddies down in Atlanta before he did) that another team could offer him a spot.

 

[Triumph]

I will give you he, Butler, looked improved over last year but he in no way could be considered "covering fine". He had moments where he covered fine but he far more moments where he was out of position and trailing a guy, a guy btw that is most likely not even in the league anymore. Butler was not nor would he ever be a quality DB in this league his overall skills were lacking, IMHO.

His biggest problem is that he will not look back for the football.

Which is mind boggling because looking back to see where is ball is has to be right up there tops on the list with being able to turn your hips and run for a CB, IMO. Butler will continue to draw PI calls or allow the WR hes covering to complete the pass until he changes his ways.

 

[bagwell368]

Clearly someone who doesn't understand the game. The emphasis has not been moved to "stopping/messing up the pass first" as you claim. And that wasn't the emphasis the previous years either.

Clearly you don't know jack about the Pats 3-4 2 Gap and what it's designed to do. Please, do yourself a favor. Go and buy books like "Patriot Reign," Education of a Coach", Management Secrets of the New England Patriots (Vol1&2), and Football for Dummies. Read them. Then come back and start commenting. You might actually sound intelligent.

Oh yes, master....

In the Pats 3-4 2 Gap, the object for the D-line to tie up the O-linemen and open up holes for the LBers to make plays. And it doesn't matter if it's against the pass or against the run. What BB has done is bring in some talented veterans in Ellis, Haynesworth and Carter that will allow him to run the 3-4 (or the 4-3) in a manner such that the D-line is more aggressive, but the LBers are still the ones who are supposed to be making the plays..

IMO our LB tackles per game average will go down, and that's adjusted for the fact that we may well have less LB's on the field. More out of the DL.

Even when running the 4-3, it's a 2 gap system. And what BB likes to do is mix up where the pressure comes from. Whether it be the ends with their hand down or from the LBer position with one of the ends dropping back into coverage.

Yeah, I get how BB couldn't find/coach what he wanted out of the 3-4 OLB's, so he's staffed his front 7 (or 6) from the more common 4-3 style players. I already wrote about that. Go ahead and watch where our LOLB (Vrabel) used to play and what the responsibilities were in 2007 compared to this year, there will be no match.

It is and will continue to be about the defense reading what the offense is showing and then making the appropriate adjustments run vs. pass.

Never said it wasn't, but I do say that we will react/have better results against the pass this year compared to last year, partially because of staff, partially because where they are on the field, and partially because of the scheme.


Interesting how some of the "top" folks at this site treat it like it is a protected guild and only the washed may enter, and every single thing that might reflect badly on their status must be fought against and defeated to maintain the status quo. How uninviting to newer members.