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A vote of confidence for the painful philosophy of: "Better to let a player go too early than too late"

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DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
It was mutual; if NE was still in the hunt, Brady would still be here and Bill would still want him. Both want to win. The problem is that after the last 3 SB wins, the playmakers are old & cupboards are empty on young talent. This same kind of issue popped after their first 3 SBs; and Belichick wiffed on guys like Maroney & Chad Jackson in 2006, but hit on Randy Moss & Welker the next year and kept an otherwise veteran team in the hunt. Well, that same kind scenario popped up again; the drafts sucked once again BUT this time the veteran acquisitions like Josh Gordon, and Antonio Brown and Mohammed Sanu completely bombed too. That's the issue. That's why both Bill and Brady were ready to move on, that's why Bill let Brady hit the open market, that's why Bill never made an offer, and that's why Tom never asked for one when he called them to say goodbye.

Deja vu, if you will, both periods with the same OC.... weak drafts then desperation trades to make up for it
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
Comments:

1.) Bonus points to @DropKickFlutie for not working "John Carrol U" or "McDaniels" in his post somehow. LOL.

2.) I agree....99.9% of the time you let a guy walk a year early.

3.) I agree...we shouldn't have let Brady go even if we wouldn't have won a Superbowl this year (and probably next year) with him on the roster.I'd have preferred to see him wind down his career here...Larry Bird/Kevin McHale style... BUT if that came with Mahomes winning 3 Superbowls in a row... NOT SURE I like that more than I like seeing Brady take his best shot in 2 weeks. Hmmmm....

4.) Tom Brady is the ULTIMATE outlier.....what he is doing SHOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE. If he fails to reach the SB next year...and doesn't win another SB for the 2020/2021 seasons....he still reaches the Superbowl 50% of the time and wins it 30% of the time! Jesus Henry Christ!!!!!!!!

Thanks for reminding me. Gotta stay on brand.
 

TheRainMaker

Team Tom Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Great thread.

- Ty Law. Mistake because there was no nobody waiting. Asante was not ready and both he, Duane Starks and Hobbs were getting roasted all season. The 2005 season was lost due to bad CB play and no youth at LB. He would've also been helpful in 2006 and 2007.
- Adam Vinatieri.
Massive mistake. He kicks in Super Bowl 42 on 4th and 13. Ghost was good, but I never trusted the guy.
- Richard Seymour. Mistake. Could've been useful in 2010 against the Jets. Didn't use the pick until 2011.
- Mike Vrabel. Good trade. He was absolutely done in 2008. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't get past T's.

2016-
- Chandler Jones.
Mistake especially what they received in return (only a 2nd round pick) as he was worth a 1st. He got better when he left because the Cards unleashed him. People complain he didn't show up in certain games, but he was clearly held back due to scheme. There were many times he was doing the "mush rush" or what I like to call fake rushing the QB. Because BB is always moving around the draft, trading Jones was not the only way they could've got Thuney, Mitchell or insert name. Then there's the Gilmore argument. Both won only one Super Bowl with the Pats so take your pick.
 
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DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
Great thread.

- Ty Law. Mistake because there was no nobody waiting. Asante was not ready and both he, Duane Starks and Hobbs were getting roasted all season. The 2005 season was lost due to bad CB play and no youth at LB. He would've also been helpful in 2006 and 2007.
- Adam Vinatieri.
Massive mistake. He kicks in Super Bowl 42 on 4th and 13. See bold above. Ghost was good, but I never trusted the guy.
- Richard Seymour. Mistake. Could've been useful in 2010 against the Jets. Didn't use the pick until 2011.
- Mike Vrabel. Good trade. He was absolutely done in 2008. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't get past T's.

2016-
- Chandler Jones.
Mistake especially what they received in return (only a 2nd round pick) as he was worth a 1st. He got better when he left because the Cards unleashed him. People complain he didn't show up in certain games, but he was clearly held back due to scheme. Because BB is always moving around the draft, trading Jones was not the only way they couldn't got Thuney, Mitchell or insert name. Then there's the Gilmore argument. Both won only one Super Bowl with the Pats so take your pick.

Good analysis.

I don't challenge those who think we should have just kept Brady. Even if just for sentimental reasons I would feel Brady should be the exception to the rule, he's a pantheon level player for Boston. Based on what you wrote it does look like they didn't really benefit immediately from these moves. The closest was Chandler Jones where they won after he left. Your last part by Gilmore I assume you mean Revis or Butler .
 

TheRainMaker

Team Tom Supporter
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2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Your last part by Gilmore I assume you mean Revis or Butler
What I meant is that posters on here say if they didn't trade Jones, they couldn't sign Gilmore. It's the common rebuttal I get for how idiotic the trade was. Followed by getting Thuney, Mitchell etc.. Revis and Butler I had no problem leaving.
 

Palm Beach Pats Fan

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Pathetic that we let Tom Brady go but doing it has only enhanced his legacy and destroyed the “system quarterback” hatorade arguments, so good for Tom.
Funny that you mention that, but I am from Indiana, went to IU, love basketball, and post on IU basketball forums. I moved to MA after college.

For 20 years, most of the posters there are also Colts fans and HATE Brady. I usually avoid discussing football there.

But yesterday these Colts fans were universally slackjawed in amazement at Brady's performance at age 43 and reciting his stats.

I had to chime in "wait, for 20 years you called him a lucky noodle-armed game managing system QB, carried by defense, coaching, and so called "shenanigans" without which he'd be average at best. Are you telling me , now, that you were full of crap for 20 years?"

Their answer: yes, I guess we were all full of crap!
 

yukon cornelius

In the Starting Line-Up
You say, "From 2014 to 2017, he was, and they were good enough to win every year, and they would have if not for the head coach".

This strikes me as rather myopic, since the head coach was the one who constructed and coached the "good enough" roster.

The head coach was the one who prepared the team during the minicamp, training camp, offseason programs, and throughout the season.
The head coach was the one who constructed the game-plans.
The head coach was the one who selected the roster and lineups.
The head coach was the one who coached the team to enough wins to position themselves for a postseason opportunity.

You can't just wrangle together "good enough" talent and throw it on the field and expect it to work. You need preparation, discipline, coaching, schematics, tactics, organization, etc, and the vast majority of that comes via coaching.

It's like saying, "the engine of the car was good enough, but the wheels and windshield were junk, so we just should throw those away and let the engine do its thing".

Your anti-Belichick crusades are as inaccurate as they are annoying, and your truculent, antagonistic demeanor makes you absolutely miserable.
the unfollow option was liberating ;)
 

crawhammer

On the Game Day Roster
Really does anyone think that Brady being with the Patriots in 2020 would have made up for all the problems the team had this year?
Yes. Pretty much anyone who is not foolishly clutching onto IBWT like it has any real meaning anymore.

And made up for all the problems... that would mean 11 or 12 wins, the division, and another AFCCG.
 

crawhammer

On the Game Day Roster
The head coach was the one who prepared the team during the minicamp, training camp, offseason programs, and throughout the season.
The head coach was the one who constructed the game-plans.
The head coach was the one who selected the roster and lineups.
The head coach was the one who coached the team to enough wins to position themselves for a postseason opportunity.

You can't just wrangle together "good enough" talent and throw it on the field and expect it to work. You need preparation, discipline, coaching, schematics, tactics, organization, etc, and the vast majority of that comes via coaching.
So you think Bruce Arians is a genius too? Let's just say pretty much any head coach who ever won a Super Bowl... all geniuses? Or maybe they just had enough talent of their roster to make all those things look like their working? I guess beLichick wasn't a genius in Cleveland. Not a genius with Bledsoe at quarterback either. Or with Cassel with an otherwise good enough team to go undefeated the season before. Or with Cam this past year. Curiously only a genius with a great program with Brady at quarterback.
 

festy1986

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Brady was never playing just 2 more years. His arm is literally gonna have to fall off for next year to be his last.

I've said it a long time, and even when brady him self decided 45 was his goal, this man will play until he's 50. He easily has 5 more years in him at the way the game is played today.

What a devastatingly short sighted decsion by the Patriots.
 

crawhammer

On the Game Day Roster
the unfollow option was liberating ;)
Since you won't see this, you won't mind my saying the unfollow option is the equivalent of pulling the blanket over your own head when you fart. Which you're probably doing right now as opposed to reading my post that you can't see.
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
Funny that you mention that, but I am from Indiana, went to IU, love basketball, and post on IU basketball forums. I moved to MA after college.

For 20 years, most of the posters there are also Colts fans and HATE Brady. I usually avoid discussing football there.

But yesterday these Colts fans were universally slackjawed in amazement at Brady's performance at age 43 and reciting his stats.

I had to chime in "wait, for 20 years you called him a lucky noodle-armed game managing system QB, carried by defense, coaching, and so called "shenanigans" without which he'd be average at best. Are you telling me , now, that you were full of crap for 20 years?"

Their answer: yes, I guess we were all full of crap!

Colts fans have softened especially having had Vinatieri and Brissett on their team over the last 15 years.
 

festy1986

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Brady being in New England in 2020 would have resulted a few more wins however it would have ended like 2019 at best, a one and done post season. The team was in salary cap hell. Brady's attitude would have continued to decline as they could not afford what he wanted them to get. 2020 worked out well for Brady and for the Patriots who took their pain this year all at once.

Really does anyone think that Brady being with the Patriots in 2020 would have made up for all the problems the team had this year?
What about 21, 22, 23 and 24?

Because he's going to be around quite a while and showing no signs of slowing down.

Brady leaving isn't because bill allowed it, it's because brady chose it. He did so for what reason? Because bill roster management and drafting, plus his cap management left us in a position where brady would be on a team that was worse than the season he just had.

Brady would not of left the Patriots if he had the offebsive weapons here he has in tampa. So the argument isn't if we would of been good, it's why bill couldn't figure out how to field a roster that was Superbowl caliber
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
Just saying it's too early to be dissing Belichick and the philosophy has generally worked out for 20 years that it's better to let a great player go a year early than a year later. Clearly Tom Brady still has gas in the tank, he put up one of his best 4 regular seasons ever in Tampa, and just brought them to his 10th Superbowl appearance. Absolutely incredible. Brady has double-cemented his legacy. Absolutely zero mentions ever again of him being a system QB.

As a reminder we have had Patriot HOF-caliber players leave before and it sucked and was painful, including ones who made Pro Bowls after leaving or even more rings. But the Patriots moved on and continued to be a strong team (next man up), and those players still have fond relationships with the Patriots:
- Ty Law
- Adam Vinatieri
- Richard Seymour
- Mike Vrabel
- Chandler Jones

I guess a case can be made that Brady is a special case and we should have kept him. I don't strongly disagree. But I think if Brady stayed he likely only throws for 24TDs in this offense and we still don't go far, we needed a major rebuild anyways. I'm just saying the system has worked for 20 years, and it will really need like 4 more years to actually judge Belichick fairly or not. So many here were predicting a 5-11 record, 10 months ago, so this past season wasn't a surprise with $30M in dead cap money and 8 covid opt-outs. The biggest issue was Stidham doesn't seem to be the heir apparent so that's the biggest problem. In the past we usually would have a young guy in the waiting before jettisoning the older veteran guy.


In fairness, I think that's the media's interpretation a lot of the time and not actually Bill's reasoning. Usually it has more to do with cost and projected value. If Ty Law and Richard Seymour had been willing to sign below market, then things might have been different. Sure, age does effect projections, and it is relevant, but it isn't like he's just moving on from these guys because they're getting older. It's because their cost doesn't justify their likely output.

The philosophy has been especially prevalent in New England because so many players win championships, get publicity, and become overvalued by the market. It's easy to say "better too early than too late" for an older player, especially a household name that draws attention, even if that's not the entire picture.

The Patriots have carried plenty of guys who were long in the tooth; they just haven't overpaid for their past accomplishments. If it were true that they consistently move on a year early and not a year late, they'd have a significantly younger roster than most teams. In general, they haven't.
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Yeah AV didn't look great (like Brady didn't look fantastic in 2019) and the Pats moved on with Ghost and AV won another ring in Indy. It's so weird and jolting that it happened now with Brady but this stuff has been happening for 20 years. I loved Vinatieri.

.
I met him in Jacksonville at the Superbowl pre-game party. A couple of friends had gone to the bar - I was sitting at the table with a friend's wife when she spotted Adam and nearly fainted. I told her to go talk to him - many of the players were there and everyone was having a good time. She couldn't do it.

I excused myself and sneaked around without her noting it. I went to AV and said hi and told him his biggest fan in the world was sitting at that table and was too afraid to say hi.

He walked over and talked with her for 20 minutes. Made her life. Super, super, nice and humble guy. I really appreciated his attitude and generosity.
 

1960Pats

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I would vote for this philosophy for every player ever except Tom Brady. We should have pulled out all the stops to keep him for two more years, as is painfully clear now. Nothing we can do but go forward, however, so I'll start putting my mind towards trying to get excited about what the Pats are going to do at QB this spring.
What happens when our QB's next year are the same?
 

1960Pats

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Funny that you mention that, but I am from Indiana, went to IU, love basketball, and post on IU basketball forums. I moved to MA after college.

For 20 years, most of the posters there are also Colts fans and HATE Brady. I usually avoid discussing football there.

But yesterday these Colts fans were universally slackjawed in amazement at Brady's performance at age 43 and reciting his stats.

I had to chime in "wait, for 20 years you called him a lucky noodle-armed game managing system QB, carried by defense, coaching, and so called "shenanigans" without which he'd be average at best. Are you telling me , now, that you were full of crap for 20 years?"

Their answer: yes, I guess we were all full of crap!
I have some connections to Indiana and IU. My youngest son's wife is from Indy and my oldest son went to IU for grad school during the Pats first SB run. He used to get a lot of grief from Indy fans (I never put Indy and the word Colts together btw) when he wore his Pats gear, usually a Big Vince jersey. Nobody had much to say to him up close though. :)

Are you familiar with a bar named Nick's in Bloomington. My son and his friend worked there around 03-04.

It's great to see the Indy fans have come around a bit.
 

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