A question on my mind virtually every day [Would BB draft Maye]

[Rob0729]

What about all the other times we left a blue chip prospect on the board?

And how are you determining blue chip prospect? Were these guys listed that way in ourlads or something or just using your hindsight?

I guess no one had a good draft in 2000 since everyone passed Brady 6 times.

I am responding to a post that says that Belichick wouldn't have traded down with a blue chip prospect on the board. I am stating times he did. And many people thought these players would be blue chip prospects at the time of the draft and not just in hindsight.

 

[signbabybrady]

It's funny how almost all of your arguments start with you can't count x,y, or z because that info would destroy your argument.

He chose the raw Brady over Drew and that lasted 20 years. Choosing the raw QB destroys your argument from the jump and then the 20 years kills any other useful data on the subject since the position was filled.

 

[signbabybrady]

I am responding to a post that says that Belichick wouldn't have traded down with a blue chip prospect on the board. I am stating times he did. And many people thought these players would be blue chip prospects at the time of the draft and not just in hindsight.

Awesome now do the same exercise but for all the times he got it right like taking Seymour instead of Terrell.

 

[Ring 6]

You would know by looking at a color chart and getting the same answers from everyone.

Answering impossible questions is called an opinion.

You aren’t understanding the question.

No matter what blue looks like to you or me or anyone else, we are taught to call it blue.
If what you is what I call red we would never know because it was given that name.

Maybe this simplifies it. Reduce it to binary. Everything is black and white. How do I know you don’t see things the way I see a negative? There would never be a reason to find that out, and there is absolutely no way to know whether it’s true or not.

 

[TheRainMaker]

This seems like a moot discussion because many on the board wanted a change after 2023. I do think had Kraft allowed him to return that one or the top 3 QB’s were going to be taken at 3. No dreaded trade downs. Also, I haven’t seen you guys talk about that there were rumors NE preferred Daniels.

 

[upstater1]

Ok but again Jimmy was not raw. Bill has never picked a raw QB like Maye as his potential NFL franchise QB in his life. Saying he'd suddenly pivot to a completely different philosophy of picking QB's at his age is a fantasy and with all due respect it's wishful thinking.

And Bill drafted him so that doesn't say much for Bill's ability to evaluate QB's does it.

He soured on Mac because Mac had enough of the MP/JJ fiasco and went outside the building for advice. He wants his QB's to have a high baseline and just do what they're told.... and understandably so since he is a defensive coach not offense. High floor and polished guys are what he wants, not raw QB's that need a ton of development. He wasn't picking Maye.


Limited? Or just had the reins put on him by Weis? Based on his leap in 02 and again in 03-04 I'd say it was the latter. He was a darn good QB at Michigan.

I can't agree with much of this.

1. I mean, taking a guy like Garoppolo from a small D-1-AA school is by definition taking a raw QB. The guy has never gone up against competition in his entire life. If you put Drake Maye in D1AA he'd look like he was as seasoned as Marino.

2. Did you really ding Belichick for not being able to tell how the sinews in Garoppolo's muscles would hold up over the longterm? Garoppolo took his team to the Super Bowl. He would've been a really good QB in this league if not for the injuries.

3. He soured on Mac because Mac went outside the building? It had nothing to do with Mac's gutlessness? Crying and screaming and wailing over and injury that lost respect from teammates? The absolute inability to throw an OUT and thereby limiting the offense?

4. You're basing what Belichick would've done on the drafting of Mac. One instance in 23 years and you're saying that because Mac wasn't raw, that must mean Belichick doesn't like raw QBs. Meanwhile Belichick drafted many tens of QBs through the years, many of them raw. Rohan Davey was named the starter his senior year at LSU, he had relatively little experience, and he certainly was raw and needed development. Belichick drafted him anyway.

5. Brady, yes, he needed a lot more development as a first year starter. You're saying Weis was constraining him? I'm not sure that you can loosen the reins on a 1st year QB who threw 18tds and 12ints. It seems to me you want that TD-to-INT ratio to improve before you let him go Brett Favre.

 

[upstater1]

That isn't even close to true and the best example played QB here for twenty years. The HOF is full of players at every position who were drafted in later rounds and after other players at the same position.

Those aren't blue-chippers. Blue-chippers are the guys who are rated highly. A 6th round pick is by definition NOT rated highly. I'm talking about Scouting Grades. If Brady was graded as a blue-chipper, he wouldn't have been picked in the 6th round. This is definitional.

The picks up to 20-25 usually come with top grades. Then everyone from 20-25 to 50 all have grades below that.

 

[Real fan 02]

Bill would have absolutely taken Drake. He was the consensus best pick on the board at 3. To say otherwise is just hating.

Not to mention the scouts and personnel Bill left behind are the ones who took Drake while still using Bill's grading system.

Lastly the reason it's working so well right now is because of Bill's best disciple Josh McDaniels and Bill's preferred offense the Erhardt-Perkins system.

Without getting into the debate again I'll just say there was so much dysfunction and tensions during the past few seasons..that who knows what the right decisions would have been..

I'm happy as a fan we stood pat and took Maye day...

 

[upstater1]

You are kinda making my point for me. When Belichick traded down, he felt he could get a comparable player as the ones he was passing on at a lower draft position. So if Belichick didn't think there was much difference between Maye or McCarthy or even he felt McCarthy was better, he wouldn't have a problem trading down with the Vikes even if he had to move back up a bit to get him.

It's risking a lot at the most valuable position to assume you could move back up. Let's say another team rated McCarthy and Maye similarly. When Maye is gone and McCarthy is the last QB left with your high scores/values and you need a QB, you're going to require as much as the Vikings would've paid to take Maye. You can't look at draft position to determine it.

As for Belichick and the trade downs from the middle of the 1st, I'm just noting that he didn't trade out of the prime zones, with the possible exception of overlooking McDuffie in 2022. Mostly he stuck around the area (as with Gonzalez) or traded up to take comparable players. Clearly he considered Chandler Jones and Hightower blue chippers. There are hardly any examples of him passing on high score prospects for lesser scored prospects outside of the Cole Strange pick. You mentioned Oher earlier or a few others, but if you have Oher scored like other players and you succeed with his substitute in Vollmer, or by landing Gronkowski and McCourty (who you have rated highly) that means you're in the same zone or area.

In other words, outside of Cole Strange, we don't have many examples of him trading down for lesser rated players no matter what the draft pick haul would've given him. We can't go back and say, you should have taken this guy instead of getting the ammo to trade up for Chandler or Donte.

 

[h0c2000]

I don't hate Bill, not even a little. I do hate how you feel that everyone who doesn't fellate him is a hater. Your audience for your nonsense has dropped by one. Sorry buddy, I tried.

 

[upstater1]

He could have dropped two spots and picked up an extra first with the Giants and McCarthy would have definitely been there.


BTW, no one expected the run on QBs that happened in that draft. No one could have predicted the Falcons were going to draft Penix when they paid so much to get Cousins. Most mock drafts had McCarthy going late in the first or early second. If Belichick was in control of that draft and decided to trade down with the Vikes, he might have expected McCarthy to be available with the 23rd pick that that they picked up in the trade.

We've seen runs on QBs in drafts.

It's happening a lot.Even the prior year before the Maye draft teams were shocked that the Colts took A Richardson.

Seems to be a common theme. B Young too was kind of shocking as a #1.

 

[Real fan 02]

I don't hate Bill, not even a little. I do hate how you feel that everyone who doesn't fellate him is a hater. Your audience for your nonsense has dropped by one. Sorry buddy, I tried.

 

[upstater1]

It's funny how almost all of your arguments start with you can't count x,y, or z because that info would destroy your argument.

He chose the raw Brady over Drew and that lasted 20 years. Choosing the raw QB destroys your argument from the jump and then the 20 years kills any other useful data on the subject since the position was filled.

This debate is reminiscent of the, what is Belichick like without Brady argument?

They were together 20 years. There's very little evidence of how Belichick picks QBs BECAUSE Belichick never really needed to pick a QB other than Mac Jones.

During that time, they won a lot. They had spectacular success doing a rebuild of the 1st dynasty around the 2010 season. That was because of Brady, Belichick's coaching, AND great drafting.

Then because they sold out their assets in the late part of the decade as the team got old, Brady hit 42, and they screwed their salary cap, this is treated as evidence of something. Whereas it really is just evidence of a team clawing and scratching as they see their window closing. It's entirely different than 2009.

Imagine if you did the same thing during the meat of your career with spectacular success, then in your 70s you started from scratch, a complete build from the bottom, and people then dinged you for the fact that you had good people around you during the 2 decades of success.

 

[Rob0729]

Awesome now do the same exercise but for all the times he got it right like taking Seymour instead of Terrell.

Why?

 

[signbabybrady]

@upstater1 No idea why the mods felt the need to hide your post from me so I took a screen shot while logged out. Great post!


Lol!

He Drafted a small D-1-AA QB in Jimmy

And another QB Cassell who hadn't started since high school.

He replaced a 100 million dollar starter in Drew with a Raw 6th Rd QB.

Seems like you could actually make a very compelling case that he prefers raw QBs that he can coach up.

 

[Thelonious]

A safety from some D III trade school?

 

[signbabybrady]

 

[signbabybrady]

A safety from some D III trade school?

6 year player with 5 ints/fumbles and 450 tackles. Tough injury but he's still trying to fight through it.

Not too shabby for a DIII second round pick.

 

[signbabybrady]

Bill guys

 

[signbabybrady]