A Note to Bob Kraft

[venecol]

Wait, you really think that Kraft didn’t build in the costs for the stadium into ticket prices? How else did you think he recouped his investment then? I’m assuming you don’t really believe he footed the bill out of kindness. You seem to be a smart guy and the end of your post seems to agree that he got his investment back and then some.

And those averages don’t jive with an article from earlier this year: Pats games are NFL's most expensive tickets

Furthermore, average ticket prices more the doubled between 2001 and 2002 and then increased again between 2002 and 2003. That’s not just winning a title and that’s not just increased demand. But if you have another idea for how Kraft recouped the investment, I’m all ears.

I doubt Kraft recovered stadium construction soft and hard costs from ticket sales alone. There must be many other sources of revenue such as parking fees, concession fees, advertising, merchandise, nvm about depreciation. I'm not a business major, but ticket sales alone makes no sense.

 

[Kontradiction]

I guess that Kraft should have gone the way of so many owners. Like CHI, he should have gotten the taxpayers to contribute to stadium costs, directly and through tax breaks. Then we could pay through our taxes AND through ticket costs.

I guess that Kraft should cut ticket prices by a third because he can afford it, or perhaps because there is no demand for tickets?

Yeah. That’s definitely what we’re saying.

 

[Kontradiction]

I doubt Kraft recovered stadium construction soft and hard costs from ticket sales alone. There must be many other sources of revenue such as parking fees, concession fees, advertising, merchandise, nvm about depreciation. I'm not a business major, but ticket sales alone makes no sense.

No, you’re on track. Otherwise, ticket costs would have exploded more than they did. But the majority of the revenue that would be allocated to pay back the costs from the construction of Gillette Stadium would come from ticket prices/attendance.

 

[venecol]

No, you’re on track. Otherwise, ticket costs would have exploded more than they did. But the majority of the revenue that would be allocated to pay back the costs from the construction of Gillette Stadium would come from ticket prices/attendance.

I also wonder if he got a tax break for funding the cost himself. Being a shrewd businessman, I would have to believe he did. Does anyone know?

 

[mgteich]

Of course Kraft got a tax break, but not as much as if someone else footed the bill.

I also wonder if he got a tax break for funding the cost himself. Being a shrewd businessman, I would have to believe he did. Does anyone know?

 

[venecol]

Of course Kraft got a tax break, but not as much as if someone else footed the bill.

I'm in the camp of preference for these billionaires building their own stadiums instead of having taxpayers subsidize them. I was in Tampa when the Glazers bamboozled the City/County into using 100% public funds for construction. Even worse, Bucs signed a stadium lease in which the local government paid for almost all of the stadium expenses while the franchise kept almost all of the proceeds. They even tried to screw the adjacent homeowners from collecting parking fees during games. I hate the Glazers.

 

[shmessy]

I'm in the camp of preference for these billionaires building their own stadiums instead of having taxpayers subsidize them. I was in Tampa when the Glazers bamboozled the City/County into using 100% public funds for construction. Even worse, Bucs signed a stadium lease in which the local government paid for almost all of the stadium expenses while the franchise kept almost all of the proceeds. They even tried to screw the adjacent homeowners from collecting parking fees during games. I hate the Glazers.

But THAT is the norm.

New England/Massachusetts/Foxboro is incredibly fortunate this guy bought the team in 1994.

I realize that doesn't translate to "Florida Man", however.

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[shmessy]

Can you drop a link to the post where you answered in detail? That seems to be fiction.

Post #150. You need a map?

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[203Pat]

I'm in the camp of preference for these billionaires building their own stadiums instead of having taxpayers subsidize them. I was in Tampa when the Glazers bamboozled the City/County into using 100% public funds for construction. Even worse, Bucs signed a stadium lease in which the local government paid for almost all of the stadium expenses while the franchise kept almost all of the proceeds. They even tried to screw the adjacent homeowners from collecting parking fees during games. I hate the Glazers.

That stadium is such a dump too. The NFL basically told them don’t bid on a Super Bowl again until you make some updates. They didn’t even have an LED Jumbotron there till 3-4 years ago.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Wait, you really think that Kraft didn’t build in the costs for the stadium into ticket prices? How else did you think he recouped his investment then? I’m assuming you don’t really believe he footed the bill out of kindness. You seem to be a smart guy and the end of your post seems to agree that he got his investment back and then some.

And those averages don’t jive with an article from earlier this year: Pats games are NFL's most expensive tickets

Furthermore, average ticket prices more the doubled between 2001 and 2002 and then increased again between 2002 and 2003. That’s not just winning a title and that’s not just increased demand. But if you have another idea for how Kraft recouped the investment, I’m all ears.

Sure, ticket prices went up in part because he could justify it by building a new stadium, and maybe some of the justification was that he paid for the stadium himself (although I'm guessing tickets wouldn't have been all that different if it had been paid by taxpayers).

But ticket prices are just a small part of him recouping his investment on the stadium. The biggest factor in that is that he owns the stadium instead of the city, so any valuation increase is his once he sells it (at least, I assume, I don't know the details). He probably was smart enough to know that the stadium would be worth much more in the future.

Paying for it himself gets him other benefits too -- maybe the city made it easier for him to build Patriots Place for example (speculation on my part but seems reasonable). And he gets public goodwill which has value too.

I agree he didn't pay for it out of the goodness of his heart and doing so was a calculated move designed to make him more money down the road. But I'm guessing he was happy that the city would be able to use those funds for something else, he's not a total *******. And every owner has the choice to build their own stadium or rake cities over the coals for them, and way too many of them choose the latter at the expense of the public good. Kraft chose not to do that, and whatever his motivations or financial calculations, he should be praised for that.

ETA: the link you posted is secondary market prices which don't go to Kraft's pocket. The one I posted doesn't have any source but I'd be interested to see, for example, how much Patriots season tickets are compared to the rest of the league.

 

[Kontradiction]

Post #150. You need a map?

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Oh, you mean the gigantic red herring post? The one that has already been addressed six times over? Am I going to get my rank order and where you would place Kraft vs former and current players and coaches or are you ready to admit that you ultimately agree with my point? Let’s try not to close the thread this time.

 

[Kontradiction]

Sure, ticket prices went up in part because he could justify it by building a new stadium, and maybe some of the justification was that he paid for the stadium himself (although I'm guessing tickets wouldn't have been all that different if it had been paid by taxpayers).

But ticket prices are just a small part of him recouping his investment on the stadium. The biggest factor in that is that he owns the stadium instead of the city, so any valuation increase is his once he sells it (at least, I assume, I don't know the details). He probably was smart enough to know that the stadium would be worth much more in the future.

Paying for it himself gets him other benefits too -- maybe the city made it easier for him to build Patriots Place for example (speculation on my part but seems reasonable). And he gets public goodwill which has value too.

I agree he didn't pay for it out of the goodness of his heart and doing so was a calculated move designed to make him more money down the road. But I'm guessing he was happy that the city would be able to use those funds for something else, he's not a total *******. And every owner has the choice to build their own stadium or rake cities over the coals for them, and way too many of them choose the latter at the expense of the public good. Kraft chose not to do that, and whatever his motivations or financial calculations, he should be praised for that.

Overall, I don’t have a problem with this post.

 

[venecol]

Oh, you mean the gigantic red herring post? The one that has already been addressed six times over? Am I going to get my rank order and where you would place Kraft vs former and current players and coaches or are you ready to admit that you ultimately agree with my point? Let’s try not to close the thread this time.

He placed Kraft at #1 in an earlier post. I stand corrected if wrong.

Damn it, why did I get suckered in.

 

[Kontradiction]

He placed Kraft at #1 in an earlier post. I stand corrected if wrong.

Damn it, why did I get suckered in.

Didn’t see that but if he did, that’s disgraceful.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Overall, I don’t have a problem with this post.

Well yeah, that's because it's a very good post on my part

I went back and read shmessy's post #150. I haven't been following this argument between you guys but if it's about how much influence the owner has on the success of the team in the standings, then I agree that the things he listed there are nice, but certainly aren't instrumental in the Patriots championships (private planes and first class facilities are helpful but obviously the contributions of Belichick and Brady are much more influential to our championships).

In the end, Kraft's decision to hire Belichick and his generally staying out of the way on football operations (except for a certain incident this year) are the only two things he's done that have really brought us championships. But that's all you can ask for from an owner in terms of helping the team to win. The other factors that go into "what makes a great owner" are all off-field stuff and he should get a lot of credit for those, IMO.

ETA: thinking about it more, obviously Kraft capitulating in Deflategate should be counted against him too, and this latest Bengals thing maybe, although I don't fault him as much for that. I think the original post in this thread is really dumb though and OP should probably go to therapy, can't believe he wrote that all out and I'd defend Kraft against most of those charges.

 

[shmessy]

Oh, you mean the gigantic red herring post? The one that has already been addressed six times over? Am I going to get my rank order and where you would place Kraft vs former and current players and coaches or are you ready to admit that you ultimately agree with my point? Let’s try not to close the thread this time.

Who's your favorite parent? Who's your favorite Beatle? What's your favorite ice cream flavor?

Your bobbisox, teenage girl question is stupid. Kraft never tried out for the team, Brady never financed a stadium, Belichick never built Patriot Place or saved the team from moving. One is greater than the other - - why??? They do DIFFERENT jobs. They can only be compared against those who do the same jobs/positions for the competing franchises.

Sorry - I'm not joining your pajama party. I live in the world of reality.

But, I still enjoy a good laugh!

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[shmessy]

He placed Kraft at #1 in an earlier post. I stand corrected if wrong.

Damn it, why did I get suckered in.

He's the most important person because of the mere existence of the team in New England.

I fully understand that means nothing to Florida Man - he doesn't care if an owner moved the Patriots to Portland, Oregon or Kalamazoo, Michigan. But to people living in New England, or who grew up there it's a foundational thing.

Is he the most important cog to the on-field success of the team? - who knows? - THAT'S the stupid question, and I'm not going to play the "who's your favorite Jonas Brother" game, or whatever the fark Kontra's trying to do for entertainment these days.

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[Kontradiction]

Who's your favorite parent? Who's your favorite Beatle? What's your favorite ice cream flavor?

Your bobbisox, teenage girl question is stupid. Kraft never tried out for the team, Brady never financed a stadium, Belichick never built Patriot Place or saved the team from moving. One is greater than the other - - why??? They do DIFFERENT jobs. They can only be compared against those who do the same jobs/positions for the competing franchises.

Sorry - I'm not joining your pajama party. I live in the world of reality.

But, I still enjoy a good laugh!

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You’re squirming. And you’re clearly getting angry (you get more passive aggressive when that happens) which tells me a lot here. Nobody is asking you who your favorite is. What I’m asking you is where you’d slot Kraft when it comes to thanking people for this run. It’s not that difficult. I did mine yesterday off the top of my head and it took me all of five minutes. Now that we’ve gotten that misunderstanding out of the way, let me see that rank order. Either that or just let me know that you agree with me. Because you’re stuck here and there’s no really any way of getting out of this without taking a dump on the players and coaches who have contributed more to the product on the field or conceding my point. Naturally, you’ll probably just do what you always do, which is dip out when the going gets tough, but you’re still responding which gives me hope that I might see that order that I’ve asked for well over 20 times now. So what are you afraid of? Let’s see it.

EDIT: I just saw your avatar. You must be HEATED.

 

[luuked]

He's the most important person because of the mere existence of the team in New England.

What ? Are you kidding ?

The most important are the players who actually execute the plans of the coaches (usually second most important but sometimes they knock a gameplan so out of the park that they almost steal the show).

And then at the very end comes Kraft. Behind assistant coaches and trainers who actually contribute to the product on the field. Any rich person can spend the money he is spending on the team because they get it back and then some.

But everyone from the scouts, trainers, coaches to the players are actually experts in a field that requires knowledge and the necessary aptitude to apply that. While Kraft sits in his suite and slurps a drink.

If there is something that I thought football got wrong it is that the owner gets the trophy from Goodell. It should go to the players first (captains take it), then coaches and at the very end off to the owner.

Say what you want about futbol/soccer but they get the trophy ceremony much more right.

 

[shmessy]

You’re squirming. And you’re clearly getting angry (you get more passive aggressive when that happens) which tells me a lot here. Nobody is asking you who your favorite is. What I’m asking you is where you’d slot Kraft when it comes to thanking people for this run. It’s not that difficult. I did mine yesterday off the top of my head and it took me all of five minutes. Now that we’ve gotten that misunderstanding out of the way, let me see that rank order. Either that or just let me know that you agree with me. Because you’re stuck here and there’s no really any way of getting out of this without taking a dump on the players and coaches who have contributed more to the product on the field or conceding my point. Naturally, you’ll probably just do what you always do, which is dip out when the going gets tough, but you’re still responding which gives me hope that I might see that order that I’ve asked for well over 20 times now. So what are you afraid of? Let’s see it.

I've said all I need to say at this point.

Your question is stupid. You keep wanting me to dip into your meth stash/stupid question of ranking people who work different positions for the same organization. I only would rank people who are IN COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER. Here's the REALITY (if you can comprehend it): Kraft's job is to make Belichikc look good - - Belichick's job is to make Brady look good - - and they all three (along with hundreds of others are in a pool in that organization to make each other look good). THAT'S how a healthy organization works .

That's your own problem with that Entertainment Tonight Viewer Poll trash. Good for you.

Congrats - - you win your whatever comptetition/never ending argument award.

You want me to play you ridiculous ranking game. I'm staying away from your stash. You do you.

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