A football minor league...thoughts????

[Pats726]

I'll leave it to the marketing wizzes to decide whether there is a market for such a league.

From my own personal perch, I cannot see it being otherwise. Look around this board. We're drawing a thousand a night to TALK ABOUT a sport that ISN'T EVEN BEING PLAYED!

I think things have changed significantly since NFLE (or the WorldLAF, as it began) first played. America is football crazy.

I would trade the Wednesday in-season idea for the spring idea, just to have a way to continue to follow football after the Super Bowl (and God help us, the Pro Bowl.)

The injury risk, again, is a non-issue, for anybody who would not have a shot at the NFL otherwise. Similarly, a guy "sent down" to the minors would retain his NFL contract. So, it's a risk of injury against (putatively) slower, weaker players, or stronger, faster players. Either way, you get the same check. That keeps it in the team's interest to fish or cut bait with the veteran guys.

I think 3 things are necessary for this to be a HUGE draw:

1) NFL affiliation. E.g., the Pawtucket Patriots.
2) Realistic possibility of advancement to the NFL.
3) ESPN, NFLN, and/or other network interest.

20 bucks a head for 50,000 fans is a million bucks. Remember how the "super bowl" for the XFL was the "million dollar game"? Think about it. currently the players get around 60% of NFL revenue. I don't know for sure how costs would scale from the NFL to the minor league; you don't need to rent a huge megastadium, for instance; but of course, the gate is lower.

Let's say an average NFL minors contract is 100K per annum. Let's say 50 guys get paid. That's 5 million per year in payroll. Let's say they take up 60% of gross, like in the NFL (doubtful, if networks get on board.) That means the grand total take is 12 million per team per year. If you get 50,000 fans at 20 bucks a head, you can get that just on gate. Obviously, the network contract(s) is/are very important, because that puts you on the "razor's edge" without network money. WITH network money, you can scale back gate expectations to more like 30,000 fans. Sort of in the range of American soccer in most markets.

So we're back to would people watch it -- which is what drives TV contracts. So you tell me: it's March 1. Maybe there's snow on the ground. The Pawtucket Pats are playing the Baton Rouge Saints. There's a "minor" fantasy league in play. The Pats have Bam Childress in at wideout, and there's talk about him making the "real" team. Gutierez is at QB. Lua is a linebacker. You really don't want to know how these guys do?

Or maybe it's not them. Maybe Alexander is in at LB, and you're seeing improvement that might just translate. Whatever.

Either way, there's Patriots football on on Sunday -- just not the REAL Patriots. Except some of them might become REAL.

You're telling me you just go ho-hum, I am watching golf, or the little league world series? Hell, I'd watch this game before I'd watch NCAA basketball. But that's just me.

How about you guys? Would you watch it?

PFnV

I think it would be GREAT fun to see some up and coming players..I wonder about coaches..though and how the pay structure would be..BUT I think it's an idea worth investigating....I also wonder how other fans in other areas feel about all this?? I wonder if there are any other message boards in INdy, San Diego, Buffalo talking about this??

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Consider QB's alone. Brady and Manning and Palmer at the top of the NFL versus Kyle Boller and A.J. Feely and Tim Rattay at the top of the minor leagues. No wait, Boller and Feely and Rattay are on NFL rosters, so you'll have to dig deeper.

The biggest problem the minor league will face in drawing fans will be the quality of play.

Thanks for the response. I'm old enough to remember the start of the AFL (of which the Pats were a part) and that's the same argument that was made at the time, albeit with different names...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The reason that the minor league is being proposed is quite obvious.

Tie down all available talent to strangle Mark Cuban's new league before

it gets a foothold.

My point is simple. The economic forces in favor of a new league are overwhelming (current league restricted to 32 mega rich owners who are obscenely reaping the benefits of a global franchise aided by a hard salary cap).

When the AFL was started in 1960, the Nominal GDP of the US was $526 billion and the per capita GDP was $2,925.00. Today, the Nominal GDP is north of $13 trillion and the per capita GDP is above $42,000.00. There is room in this economy for another league.

Whenever economic forces are this overwhelming, the outcome is inevitable; in this case a competitive league, which, after a faltering start with some owners failing, will merge with the NFL. It took the old AFL 10 years. The odds are that this will take five to seven years from the first play of the first franchise.

 

[upstater1]

My point is simple. The economic forces in favor of a new league are overwhelming (current league restricted to 32 mega rich owners who are obscenely reaping the benefits of a global franchise aided by a hard salary cap).

When the AFL was started in 1960, the Nominal GDP of the US was $526 billion and the per capita GDP was $2,925.00. Today, the Nominal GDP is north of $13 trillion and the per capita GDP is above $42,000.00. There is room in this economy for another league.

Whenever economic forces are this overwhelming, the outcome is inevitable; in this case a competitive league, which, after a faltering start with some owners failing, will merge with the NFL. It took the old AFL 10 years. The odds are that this will take five to seven years from the first play of the first franchise.

USFL
WFL
XFL
CFL IN USA

Yeah, the AFL was very very succesful, but the same market forces that drove NFL football out of LA (vast indifference) are at play still. I think the market is saturated. But hey, as long as the 272 of us are at the minor league game, who cares.

 

[Pats726]

My point is simple. The economic forces in favor of a new league are overwhelming (current league restricted to 32 mega rich owners who are obscenely reaping the benefits of a global franchise aided by a hard salary cap).

When the AFL was started in 1960, the Nominal GDP of the US was $526 billion and the per capita GDP was $2,925.00. Today, the Nominal GDP is north of $13 trillion and the per capita GDP is above $42,000.00. There is room in this economy for another league.

Whenever economic forces are this overwhelming, the outcome is inevitable; in this case a competitive league, which, after a faltering start with some owners failing, will merge with the NFL. It took the old AFL 10 years. The odds are that this will take five to seven years from the first play of the first franchise.

I think THAT is highly optimistic.... granted I think a competitive league is possible..but it would have to have the "perfect wave" to make it...I really do not see that as happening.

 

[patfanken]

PFV, your pay scale would be great if you were a player, but unrealistic for the owners. A pay scale that was about $15K-30K would be more realistic for a 10 game season along with about $5-7K in housing expenses. Don't forget there are a lot of other expenses, especially travel, equipment, medical expenses and insurance.

Most young guys would be thrilled to play for that kind of money for a 5 month season including TC. Some of them could hold 2nd jobs like teaching, stockbrokers, etc, especially if the practices and games were at night.

 

[wizwor]

I think a minor league could work. The big difference between a minor league and the failed ventures is that the NFL would control the product. The players would come from the street and practice squads -- not the nfl or college. Older stars could 'retire' to the minors as player/coaches -- sharing what they know with an opportunity to move up as injuries create openings.

The minors could run concurrent with the 'major' league. The teams would be affiliated with pro teams. The minor team would be a place to re-hab players, audition and develop talent, and grow coaches and officials.

The minor league would play in cities without nearby franchises. The season would be shorter -- their training camp would begin when the pros start their season and end before the playoffs get underway. The games would be played before (east coast) and after (west coast) pro games -- extend the Sunday football madness.

I don't know about you, but I'd watch Troy Brown getting his game legs back as a Maine Militiaman (with a bloody mary at 10:00am Sunday). Rodney in stripes...Flutie under center at 50. Why not?

Play the games in college stadiums (revenue for the schools and an established fan base). Lowell Spinners atmosphere. $20 tickets. Scrimmages against the Big Team and the college kids. How could this not be fun?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

PFV, your pay scale would be great if you were a player, but unrealistic for the owners. A pay scale that was about $15K-30K would be more realistic for a 10 game season along with about $5-7K in housing expenses. Don't forget there are a lot of other expenses, especially travel, equipment, medical expenses and insurance.

Most young guys would be thrilled to play for that kind of money for a 5 month season including TC. Some of them could hold 2nd jobs like teaching, stockbrokers, etc, especially if the practices and games were at night.

Okay, we too had a semi-pro team where I grew up, and that was the deal for them. I don't like it. This is why seed money is important. 15-30K is not realistic, unless we want everybody -- including fans -- treating it as a hobby. Let's put the salary "Floor" at 25K for rooks, plus housing allowance.

Salary "cieling", not counting guys getting rehab assignments, would have to be in the 100K range. So that shifts the "average" well south of 100K. But I do not think part-time players (IN-SEASON) is a good idea. Remember, they should be paid during camp as well as "in-season."

But if you have 50 guys at avg. of 100K, that's $5M. If you have 40 guys making avg. 50K, that's $2M - a much simpler matter to bring that kind of money.

Again, either figure is very easily attainable IF NFL Network primes the pump, in terms of network exposure. But the whole product depends on TV availability. Heck, I might even drive out to the burbs to see the local Redskins franchise, since it's "almost-pro" ball, at a price I can afford. So you know I'd pop a beer and watch the guys who MIGHT make a pro run.

I wish I knew what "their" takes on all this is, as in, the league brass.

PFnV

PS, humorous answer to my own question --

NFL Exec: "Crap I don't know who'd watch it. Float the idea on some fan bulletin boards and watch what people say."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

USFL
WFL
XFL
CFL IN USA

Yeah, the AFL was very very succesful, but the same market forces that drove NFL football out of LA (vast indifference) are at play still. I think the market is saturated. But hey, as long as the 272 of us are at the minor league game, who cares.

Good points, but the USFL attempt was almost 25 years ago and less than 15 years after the AFL and NFL merged. Too early. Ditto for the WFL which was over 30 years ago and just six or seven years after the merger. The XFL wasn't "football" as most of us think of it but was just trash on turf. I think the market forces are a lot different today. There's a big debate about the LA situation. The CFL doesn't really market itself in the US and there is no real sense of "ownership" by US sports fans, though the quality of play is pretty good.

I'm not saying it will be easy and franchises will certainly fail, but I think the run is inevitable given the economics.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I think that's actually another argument for the NFL minor league, on the part of the NFL. And sombody mentioned the NFL is talking about it specifically because another intrepid soul is talking about a competing league.

I tried realllly hard to like all the "competing" leagues. I don't know why it is that competing leagues have to come up with dumb-***** team names, like the "Hit Men" and the "Rattlers." Or whether these team names just seem dumb, because they're not NFL names. How come "Buccaneers" and even "Seahawks" sounded classic 2 years after they got in the league? But "Iowa Barnstormers," despite years in the Arena league, never sounded right? Is it just the insidious power of NFL branding? Or do these guys get drunk with the power to use a stoopit name?

Okay, that was a sort of side trip. I dunno either.

The real point in this post is that I'd rather see a minor NFL club, because despite interest, I never, EVER developed a rooting interest in a WFL, USFL, or XFL team. Never. I would, however, IMMEDIATELY transfer my Pats loyalty in the Spring.

So even though everybody always says they'd love to see an upstart league, nobody wants to root for their teams. I mean, once again, I would try. I really would. But it would never get to where I had my Boston Stranglers mug on my desk, where my NE Patriots mug is now, holding my coffee. I would not be following Boston Stranglers training camp or salary cap decisions. I would feel a minor surge of pride when they beat the New York XChange in the XTremeWorldBowl or whatever the F*** they call it. Minor. Maybe.

But if it's the NE Patriots, Spring Edition, or the Pawtucket Patriots, or the Providence Patriots, or for that matter the Hagerstown Patriots, I would watch them like a hawk, in case moves affected my NFL proper team. I'd also see it as an affordable way to get to more Patriots games in person, and it would be blessed relief in the off-season. It would cure the huge chasm between season and draft, and would give you some more offseason storylines between the minors' season and the real NFL training camps.

And you know what, you bastiches? I would also add that if we could get a foothold in South America or Australia to flip the seasons around, I would want a golldarn SUMMER league too. Okay, that's a bridge too far for now.

In the Salary Cap era, even pre- free agency, the NFL recognized that owners do not compete against one another. Their competition is other sports leagues. Well, their product is in demand 12 months a year, and they have no product on the shelves, just some old scraps of jerseys, rerun games, a few minutes of training camp reports, etc.

Their fields are lying fallow for months every year. The only decision is whether they have to do so to grow a healthy crop of "true nfl storylines," or whether the market is past the rational fear of saturation via introduction of a spring game.

I think we could and would support it... but I am biased and have no numbers in front of me. I'd just love it if the league came to the same conclusion as me, is all I'm sayin' here.

PFnV

 

[mgteich]

MINOR LEAGUE
The way this COULD work is if there were 32 minor league teams that played in the Spring. The patriot total roster might total the present offseason 88 or 90, much as it does now. In the end, we have the players under contract now. I personally do NOT see any advantage in have our practice players play in a Spring League. If this were valuable, the CBA could be tweaked to all scrimmages all year, and such a "league". And yes, many of us would watch and attend our Providence Patriot farm team. The appropriate media vehicle is likely to be Direct TV rather the NFL network, although I suppose (as now) there would could be some NFLN coverage.

COMPETING LEAGUE
This is another concept entirely. I ahve absolutely no interest in such a league located in the US.

 

[PatsFan37]

But if it's the NE Patriots, Spring Edition, or the Pawtucket Patriots, or the Providence Patriots, or for that matter the Hagerstown Patriots, I would watch them like a hawk, in case moves affected my NFL proper team. I'd also see it as an affordable way to get to more Patriots games in person, and it would be blessed relief in the off-season. It would cure the huge chasm between season and draft, and would give you some more offseason storylines between the minors' season and the real NFL training camps.

Hear! Hear!

Now if Kraft were to discuss this in those business cliches he loves to throw around, he'd say that once you've spent hundreds of millions establishing brand loyalty, the value comes from extending the brand.

Football consumers have a special kind of brand loyalty. It's why they calls us fanatics. Mess with it at your peril.

 

[upstater1]

I think that's actually another argument for the NFL minor league, on the part of the NFL. And sombody mentioned the NFL is talking about it specifically because another intrepid soul is talking about a competing league.

I tried realllly hard to like all the "competing" leagues. I don't know why it is that competing leagues have to come up with dumb-***** team names, like the "Hit Men" and the "Rattlers." Or whether these team names just seem dumb, because they're not NFL names. How come "Buccaneers" and even "Seahawks" sounded classic 2 years after they got in the league? But "Iowa Barnstormers," despite years in the Arena league, never sounded right? Is it just the insidious power of NFL branding? Or do these guys get drunk with the power to use a stoopit name?

Okay, that was a sort of side trip. I dunno either.

The real point in this post is that I'd rather see a minor NFL club, because despite interest, I never, EVER developed a rooting interest in a WFL, USFL, or XFL team. Never. I would, however, IMMEDIATELY transfer my Pats loyalty in the Spring.

So even though everybody always says they'd love to see an upstart league, nobody wants to root for their teams. I mean, once again, I would try. I really would. But it would never get to where I had my Boston Stranglers mug on my desk, where my NE Patriots mug is now, holding my coffee. I would not be following Boston Stranglers training camp or salary cap decisions. I would feel a minor surge of pride when they beat the New York XChange in the XTremeWorldBowl or whatever the F*** they call it. Minor. Maybe.

But if it's the NE Patriots, Spring Edition, or the Pawtucket Patriots, or the Providence Patriots, or for that matter the Hagerstown Patriots, I would watch them like a hawk, in case moves affected my NFL proper team. I'd also see it as an affordable way to get to more Patriots games in person, and it would be blessed relief in the off-season. It would cure the huge chasm between season and draft, and would give you some more offseason storylines between the minors' season and the real NFL training camps.

And you know what, you bastiches? I would also add that if we could get a foothold in South America or Australia to flip the seasons around, I would want a golldarn SUMMER league too. Okay, that's a bridge too far for now.

In the Salary Cap era, even pre- free agency, the NFL recognized that owners do not compete against one another. Their competition is other sports leagues. Well, their product is in demand 12 months a year, and they have no product on the shelves, just some old scraps of jerseys, rerun games, a few minutes of training camp reports, etc.

Their fields are lying fallow for months every year. The only decision is whether they have to do so to grow a healthy crop of "true nfl storylines," or whether the market is past the rational fear of saturation via introduction of a spring game.

I think we could and would support it... but I am biased and have no numbers in front of me. I'd just love it if the league came to the same conclusion as me, is all I'm sayin' here.

PFnV

It's all about NFL branding. Just think, the flaming french musketeer colored a creamy light orange survived for well over a decade.

If you saw that in the USFL, you'd laugh.

Houston Texans? Give me a break.

 

[upstater1]

Good points, but the USFL attempt was almost 25 years ago and less than 15 years after the AFL and NFL merged. Too early. Ditto for the WFL which was over 30 years ago and just six or seven years after the merger. The XFL wasn't "football" as most of us think of it but was just trash on turf. I think the market forces are a lot different today. There's a big debate about the LA situation. The CFL doesn't really market itself in the US and there is no real sense of "ownership" by US sports fans, though the quality of play is pretty good.

I'm not saying it will be easy and franchises will certainly fail, but I think the run is inevitable given the economics.

Just as an FYI, I was referring to the years in whcih the CFL expanded into the US.

 

[Water Boy]

The NFL already has a minor league. Its called the NFC.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Just as an FYI, I was referring to the years in whcih the CFL expanded into the US.

to be honest with you, i'd completely forgotten about that. i remember that one of the teams did pretty well, but that the whole thing fizzled from lack of interest in the canadian product. i think it was 15 years ago, give or take.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The NFL already has a minor league. Its called the NFC.

That's cold!

 

[Pats726]

I really think this idea is viable....but getting all 32 teams onboard??? That is most likely why it will not happen....

 

[mgteich]

I don't think the issue is the money. We are talking about adding say 30 players to the Practice Squad. This could be accomplished under the current salary cap.

Let's be clear. Increasing roster size favors teams like the patriots. As of now, we can protect 53 and a few more. With a minor league, the patriots would have control over 90 or more players.

 

[Jimke]

Mark Cuban and friends may be a large obstacle to establishing a

football minor league. I expect his league will compete with the NFL

for college players who are rated as mid to lower round draft picks.

The salaries for these players are pretty much set. All the new league

has to do is offer more money to join them. I'm sure the

new league will have a player draft of their own.