2018 Training Camp Thread - Day 14* (8/14/18)

[long distance]

Turner and Lucien are camp fodder waiver wire guys, Britt has done nothing and has a shaky track record, Decker has looked to be in decline and Dorset is a fringe roster player. If 2 of those guys make the roster, I'd be surprised

Amendola is more valuable than that quintet of has beens and never will bes

That's not to say Amendola is worth what Miami paid him. But the "replace two proven guys (Cooks and Amendola) with quantity over quality" plan looks pretty terrible right about now. Matthews is on IR, Patterson is known garbage at WR and Britt/Decker have been underwhelming at best in their very minimal camp time

I don't know how anyone can look at this collection of WR and be anything other than worried unless you're buying heavily into Patterson/Dorsett blossoming into quality players.

It's a bad WR group that needs an awful lot of "ifs" to go in the Pats favor to be a strong group. The fundamental strategy this off-season was questionable

I'm ok with losing Cooks and Amendola but the pile of crap brought in to replace them is frightening

Last three Qs of SB Patriots played with Hogan-Amendola-Dorsett at WR (after Cooks was out of the game - NE had 3 points on the scoreboard). By some - well I guess you'd have to call it miracle - Pats offence still managed to put record offensive numbers on one of the best Ds of the league.

Id guess with Edelman-Hogan-Dorsett they could do just as well.

Im not sure they brought your “pile of crap“ to replace Danny and Cooks. One could argue they were first of all returning their #1 and #3 WRs from 2016 SB team in Jules and MM to “replace“ them . and added some vets who showed solid production in this league for competition.

I hate to lose Danny - only bc he was one of my favs - but if Amendola (on 33) was re-signed and then lost to injury early Im sure the same people would rise up saying “the fundamental strategy this off-season was questionable“...

___
btw - for Dola money they brought all new WRs (including best kick returner in the league) reducing injury bug effect . and for Cooks lets say they got Michel as top talented versatile offensive weapon (think Kamara last yr) and 8M in cap space used to solidify the weakest unit of Pats complementary football last yr - defence (Shelton+Clayborn). Seems like a reasonable enough fundamental strategy to me.

 

[PatsFan2]

The second game against the jags will be interesting. We will see if anyone can beat man coverage. Without cooks we lose last year.

I am sure Bob and Houston in Game #1 is not scared either.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I think some concern with these wrs is the age factor. A lot of guys at 30 or over 30 especially our top production guys.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I am sure Bob and Houston in Game #1 is not scared either.

I think we can do some damage against their secondary. We will see. They do have a nice DL though that’s for sure.

 

[BobDigital]

How many times does it need to be said that Oklahoma State had to simplify their offense for Dez while he was there? What about that would make anyone think "clearly he would be good here," especially since it's already mid-August?

Could Dez pick up the offense? Maybe and maybe not. If not he is a guy you could design simple plays for and he would do very well on them.

Even if he doesn't pick up the complexities of the offense he could still do very well here with designed plays. I am confident they have done that in the past for other players.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Last three Qs of SB Patriots played with Hogan-Amendola-Dorsett at WR (after Cooks was out of the game - NE had 3 points on the scoreboard). By some - well I guess you'd have to call it miracle - Pats offence still managed to put record offensive numbers on one of the best Ds of the league.

Id guess with Edelman-Hogan-Dorsett they could do just as well.

Im not sure they brought your “pile of crap“ to replace Danny and Cooks. One could argue they were first of all returning their #1 and #3 WRs from 2016 SB team in Jules and MM to “replace“ them . and added some vets who showed solid production in this league for competition.

I hate to lose Danny - only bc he was one of my favs - but if Amendola (on 33) was re-signed and then lost to injury early Im sure the same people would rise up saying “the fundamental strategy this off-season was questionable“...

___
btw - for Dola money they brought all new WRs (including best kick returner in the league) reducing injury bug effect . and for Cooks lets say they got Michel as top talented versatile offensive weapon (think Kamara last yr) and 8M in cap space used to solidify the weakest unit of Pats complementary football last yr - defence (Shelton+Clayborn). Seems like a reasonable enough fundamental strategy to me.

Last I checked Edelman is out 4 games and coming off a major knee injury likely to affect his greatest skill set (agility)

I'll also point out that getting to the end of the Super Bowl with the guys you mentioned lighting it up meant:

Gronk stayed healthy
The team withstood the loss of their top 2 WR (Edelman and Cooks)

The "just as good WR corps" is assuming a lot about health and performance. If we are in early February and the Pats are down the top 2 receivers (as they were in SB52) or down Gronk (as they were in SB51), the team is going to be 2006/2010/2013/2015 all over again. Not enough weapons to make the big plays when needed

I hope you're right in projecting perfect health from these guys though, because there is absolutely no depth (no I don't count Hollistor). You think this crew can go 22-23 more games?

 

[BobDigital]

CLIFF

One day this cliff joke will not be funny. That will be a sad day

Comments on WR's:

Amendola - I am going to be targeting him in the mid-rounds of my FFL's....THEN try selling him high after 4 weeks. He'll be HUGE in Miami...especially with Landry on the Browns and Parker's injured finger. Amendola produces when he gets reps.... I am seeing a 4 week total line of 32 rec, 400 yards, and 4 TD's….before he gets dinged up.

Dez Bryant - Not seeing what he would bring that Kenny Britt doesn't already bring and I think Britt is an even better route runner too. That being said...I wouldn't object to Dez AND Gronk in the red zone though....defenses would be all over those two.

Dorsett - He's my binky! Hope he's OK!

And whoever pointed out that we don't pay WR's more than Edelman is spot on, IMO. That has been a part of our problem in attracting talent...the "hierarchy" in place. Then again, it saves us a ton of money for other parts of our team and Brady elevates WR's...….hmmm...I mean we aren't paying 17M a year for a guy like AB which is more than we are paying ALL OF OUR WR's....

Oh are we talking fantasy football now? In that case here are better late round targets than Amendola IMO.

Pierre Garcon
Marquise Goodwin
Will Fuller
Dez Bryant

All 4 have a legit chance to get 1000 yards this year if things go well.

 

[Deus Irae]

They needlessly left the team vulnerable at WR. They stocked the WR cupboard with a slew of highly questionable players, and that means that everything will be suspect at best, at least until well into the season. It shouldn't take torture to get anyone, even the most ridiculous homers, to acknowledge that. It's not as if it's even freakin' debatable, yet people here seem as if they are still trying to pretend otherwise. That's freakin' embarrassing.

That being said, Brady looks as if he's still Brady. So, once again, it's hope + prayers about the health of Gronk and Edelman + G.O.A.T..

 

[PatsFan2]

Cleveland and the Jags seem to have log jam at WR. I am sure BB can swing some type of trade. Any of there's is better than what we have after Edelman and Hogan .

 

[Bruins29]

They needlessly left the team vulnerable at WR. They stocked the WR cupboard with a slew of highly questionable players, and that means that everything will be suspect at best, at least until well into the season. It shouldn't take torture to get anyone, even the most ridiculous homers, to acknowledge that. It's not as if it's even freakin' debatable, yet people here seem as if they are still trying to pretend otherwise. That's freakin' embarrassing.

That being said, Brady looks as if he's still Brady. So, once again, it's hope + prayers about the health of Gronk and Edelman + G.O.A.T..

I agree there are concerns. But there is a big difference between being concerned to DA is worth 6 mil a year on this team this year given his injury history, age etc.

 

[Bruins29]

Also, the Pats let DA walk without knowing JE was going to get suspended. Plus they went out and signed Jordan Matthews to a one year prove it deal a month after DA left. So its not like the Pats diddnt have some plans here.

 

[Bruins29]

No complaints from me there the BB lemmings refuse to see it though. .

The only lemming here is you. ****

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Could Dez pick up the offense? Maybe and maybe not. If not he is a guy you could design simple plays for and he would do very well on them.

Even if he doesn't pick up the complexities of the offense he could still do very well here with designed plays. I am confident they have done that in the past for other players.

That sounds like why Patterson is here, except he has tremendous special teams value. And as you said yourself, Dez wants to prove himself and sign another contract next offseason. Do you think he'll maximize his value by coming to New England and running designed plays?

 

[Ring 6]

Could Dez pick up the offense? Maybe and maybe not. If not he is a guy you could design simple plays for and he would do very well on them.

Even if he doesn't pick up the complexities of the offense he could still do very well here with designed plays. I am confident they have done that in the past for other players.

No he couldn’t.

 

[BobDigital]

That sounds like why Patterson is here, except he has tremendous special teams value. And as you said yourself, Dez wants to prove himself and sign another contract next offseason. Do you think he'll maximize his value by coming to New England and running designed plays?

Maybe. It depends. Part of the value will be him coming here and proving he can be a team player and keep his ego in check. I imagine it won't be a small number of designed plays he will run if it comes to that. It worked for a lot of guys before.

I think his numbers here would be fine. If he still has it (and I think he does) they will find a way to make it work. I wouldn't really compare Patterson to Dez in that way. I know you aren't saying they are they the same quality of player, but to even partly suggestion because we have Patterson we don't need Dez isn't really a good argument if that is what you are trying to say. They are very different players. Patterson is an all around good weapon with a true position and Dez is a probowl WR if he's right.

I wonder how hard it really is. It's hard to say as I have a hard time thinking of WRs that came here and failed and then went on to be good somewhere else. It makes you wonder how much of the system being complex is overblown. I'm not saying it's easy but not many people who are good WRs seem to fail to get it.

 

[Hyped]

One day this cliff joke will not be funny. That will be a sad day



Oh are we talking fantasy football now? In that case here are better late round targets than Amendola IMO.

Pierre Garcon
Marquise Goodwin
Will Fuller
Dez Bryant

All 4 have a legit chance to get 1000 yards this year if things go well.

Garcon....nope.
Goodwin will be off the board before Amendola.
Fuller is a big play guy, not a volume guy.
Amendola will out score Dez on a per game basis.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Maybe. It depends. Part of the value will be him coming here and proving he can be a team player and keep his ego in check. I imagine it won't be a small number of designed plays he will run if it comes to that. It worked for a lot of guys before.

I think his numbers here would be fine. If he still has it (and I think he does) they will find a way to make it work. I wouldn't really compare Patterson to Dez in that way. I know you aren't saying they are they the same quality of player, but to even partly suggestion because we have Patterson we don't need Dez isn't really a good argument if that is what you are trying to say. They are very different players. Patterson is an all around good weapon with a true position and Dez is a probowl WR if he's right.

I wonder how hard it really is. It's hard to say as I have a hard time thinking of WRs that came here and failed and then went on to be good somewhere else. It makes you wonder how much of the system being complex is overblown. I'm not saying it's easy but not many people who are good WRs seem to fail to get it.

Correct, I'm not comparing Patterson to Bryant. Dez has clearly been better offensively. But having zero special teams value certainly affects his worth to the team. Consider the possibility that Dez signs with us, is slow to pick up the offense and he doesn't yet have Brady's trust. Sure, we can still run some designed plays for him. But with the 46 man active roster, are we sitting a special teamer so Dez can run a few plays? So do you then have Dez as a healthy scratch? I can't imagine that going over well with him wanting another contract.

 

[long distance]

Last I checked Edelman is out 4 games and coming off a major knee injury likely to affect his greatest skill set (agility)

I'll also point out that getting to the end of the Super Bowl with the guys you mentioned lighting it up meant:

Gronk stayed healthy
The team withstood the loss of their top 2 WR (Edelman and Cooks)

The "just as good WR corps" is assuming a lot about health and performance. If we are in early February and the Pats are down the top 2 receivers (as they were in SB52) or down Gronk (as they were in SB51), the team is going to be 2006/2010/2013/2015 all over again. Not enough weapons to make the big plays when needed

I hope you're right in projecting perfect health from these guys though, because there is absolutely no depth (no I don't count Hollistor). You think this crew can go 22-23 more games?

Of course injuries will affect depth and everyone agrees WR is becoming a thin position. But with your math Dola could go down early as well and I don't see how that would turn into better fundamental strategy this off-season. If you go by health insurance then picking up Britt's option, signing Matthews and Patterson . instead of re-signing Danny . certainly offered better chances.

Pats offence is not WR dependent or even Gronk dependent as showed in 2016. Its very versatile, creative and run by top OC & QB (helped by BB's top complementary game) and can make productive plays/players even from “garbage“ like Patterson or White f.e. who used to be “garbage“ not too long ago or the long list of other team's “garbage“ like Hogan, Burkhead, Dorsett and now possibly Britt, Hill, Decker if we stay by the remains of 2018 rec. corps (incl. youngsters Lucien, McCarron, Berrios who could surprise and step up).

Don't get me wrong - it is disturbing to lose Mitchell and Matthews and have Britt, Burkhead, Michel, and now possibly Allen, Dorsett out of practice - but this has nothing to do with offseason fundamental strategy. Every team would be seriously affected with this kind of attrition of rec. corps.

btw - There is a much thinner position on offence where offseason strategy could really prove costly and that is QB.

For the moment though there is still a chance for this offence to pair the best chain moving combo in the league in Gronk and Jules (even at 80-90% i presume) - that haven't played together a meaningful game in a long time - helped by strong and deep OL (despite letting Solder go) and explosive, versatile backfield with enough WR and backup TE quality for McD and TB to work with.

I can hear you saying “IF healthy“ but you can echo those words to most positions on every team..

 

[PScottman]

That offense looks unstoppable.

I thought there weren't any joint practices this year, but I'd swear that's the Jete defense.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree there are concerns. But there is a big difference between being concerned to DA is worth 6 mil a year on this team this year given his injury history, age etc.

Actually, I think they go pretty much hand-in-hand. The higher the level of concern for what's here now, the less the dollars given to Amendola serve as a legitimate reason to have moved on from him.