2008 defensive statistics

[E Belichick Unum]

You mean those same stats that have us the least sacks in years?


That places the blame directly on the line. I don't remember the Patriots getting killed by passing on normal downs. What I remember is 3rd and long, and the qb having 25 seconds to throw the ball.



Look at denver. They've got 2 elite CBs and can't defend the pass. Asante wouldn't have helped.

Teams can win without a pass rush, they can't without a secondary. Who knows, maybe the Pats secondary would be OK on another team, but the sucked on this one. Yeah, I would like a pass rusher on the D-Line, but we need better corners.

The lack of a pass rush killed us in overtime in the Jets loss, but the Pats had 3 sacks, two by the D-line. The problem is scheme at times, when Colvin and Seau came back the team D and the pass rush got better, much better. I know that figures can lie, but I don't think they are in this case.

 

[Synovia]

Teams can win without a pass rush,

Really? I havent seen one.


I have, on the other hand, seen the Colts win a superbowl with Jason "hole in zone" David playing CB, across from Nick "Completely replacement" Harper. I've seen the Patriots wield a very good defense with Randal Gay and Earthwind Moreland.

 

[Synovia]

The problem is scheme at times, when Colvin and Seau came back the team D and the pass rush got better, much better.

And so did the pass defense. The pass defense got much better without changing the corners... how do you explain that?

 

[redsox33]

And so did the pass defense. The pass defense got much better without changing the corners... how do you explain that?

They did change corners- Deltha O'Neil took a seat on the bench

 

[redsox33]

The Pats dropping 2 or 3 LBs into coverage has nothing to do with how strong or weak their secondary is. It has to do with the Zone defense that they play.

And they play a zone defense that takes their LB's and moves them into coverage taking them away from rushing the passer or blitzing because the secondary needs the help. To me that has a lot to do with the secondary.

Constantly coming on third and long with 3 or 4 rushers isn't going to help the pass rush. But the line of thinking is hopefully those 7 or 8 guys that were dropped into coverage can make the stop. Until late in the season we tried this and finally someone realized it was too predicable and we started mixing in Merriweather on some blitzes as well as Hobbs a few times as well.

 

[Synovia]

And they play a zone defense that takes their LB's and moves them into coverage taking them away from rushing the passer or blitzing because the secondary needs the help. To me that has a lot to do with the secondary.

Constantly coming on third and long with 3 or 4 rushers isn't going to help the pass rush. But the line of thinking is hopefully those 7 or 8 guys that were dropped into coverage can make the stop. Until late in the season we tried this and finally someone realized it was too predicable and we started mixing in Merriweather on some blitzes as well as Hobbs a few times as well.

They've been playing zone for 10 years now.

 

[DaBruinz]

Teams can win without a pass rush, they can't without a secondary. Who knows, maybe the Pats secondary would be OK on another team, but the sucked on this one. Yeah, I would like a pass rusher on the D-Line, but we need better corners.

The lack of a pass rush killed us in overtime in the Jets loss, but the Pats had 3 sacks, two by the D-line. The problem is scheme at times, when Colvin and Seau came back the team D and the pass rush got better, much better. I know that figures can lie, but I don't think they are in this case.

Please show me which NFL team in the last decade has won a SB without a pass rush.

 

[DaBruinz]

And they play a zone defense that takes their LB's and moves them into coverage taking them away from rushing the passer or blitzing because the secondary needs the help. To me that has a lot to do with the secondary.

That is your lack of understanding of the defense. As another poster pointed out, the Pats have been playing Zone defense for much of the Belichick era.

Constantly coming on third and long with 3 or 4 rushers isn't going to help the pass rush. But the line of thinking is hopefully those 7 or 8 guys that were dropped into coverage can make the stop. Until late in the season we tried this and finally someone realized it was too predicable and we started mixing in Merriweather on some blitzes as well as Hobbs a few times as well.

Again, you are overlooking a major point. The Pats haven't been able to rush with more than 3 or 4 because of the personnel they've had at the LB position for the last 3 years. Even last year, the Pats didn't use Mayo on the Pass Rush because he was still learning the defense. The Pats pass rush is based on being able to disguise which LB(s) are the ones rushing. That confuses the defense and gives the Pats more than ample ability to get pressure.

That is not the fault of the secondary. As I pointed out, and you ignored, the Pats have proven they can win with a mediocre secondary and a good pass rush. They did so with Wilson, Samuel, and Randall Gay as rookies in 2004.

 

[Deus Irae]

Please show me which NFL team in the last decade has won a SB without a pass rush.

2006 Colts:

30th in the NFL in sacks


But, as with winning with bad/mediocre quarterbacks, the exceptions tend to just highlight the rule.

 

[Synovia]

2006 Colts:

30th in the NFL in sacks


But, as with winning with bad/mediocre quarterbacks, the exceptions tend to just highlight the rule.

Sacks are a poor way to measure pass rush. They're one of the results of a good pass rush, but not the only one. That was one of Freeney's worst years as far as sack numbers go, but his best as far as hurries.

 

[DaBruinz]

2006 Colts:

30th in the NFL in sacks


But, as with winning with bad/mediocre quarterbacks, the exceptions tend to just highlight the rule.

Sacks are not the be all end all for determining how good a pass rush is. There are other things to consider. Such as how many fumbles were created and how many QB hurries were had. And how many interceptions they forced. Those are all things the NFL doesn't keep stats on.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sacks are not the be all end all for determining how good a pass rush is. There are other things to consider. Such as how many fumbles were created and how many QB hurries were had. And how many interceptions they forced. Those are all things the NFL doesn't keep stats on.

The Colts as a team had a whopping 25 sacks that season.
They were 17th in fumbles "lost" (recovered) on defense, and 21st in overall turnovers. They were 23rd in points allowed. Yes, the stats are incomplete, but one could make that argument about teams you tried to include just as easily as about teams you try to exclude.

 

[Synovia]

T
They were 17th in fumbles "lost" (recovered) on defense,

??

You do realize that fumbles lost is almost completely random, right? Total fumbles is defense dependant.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sacks are a poor way to measure pass rush. They're one of the results of a good pass rush, but not the only one. That was one of Freeney's worst years as far as sack numbers go, but his best as far as hurries.

Kindly make a list of all the teams who pressure the hell out of opposing quarterbacks but end up in the bottom 5-10 of the league in sacks.

 

[Deus Irae]

??

You do realize that fumbles lost is almost completely random, right? Total fumbles is defense dependant.

Total fumbles is an incomplete statistic that can either be an accurate reflection of a defense or a wildly inaccurate measure of a defense, nevermind just of a pass rush. Not surprisingly, so is fumbles recovered, since the latter is a subset of the former.

 

[Kontradiction]

2006 Colts:

30th in the NFL in sacks


But, as with winning with bad/mediocre quarterbacks, the exceptions tend to just highlight the rule.

Didn't their D key up the pass rush in the playoffs or is it stuffing the run that I was thinking of?

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

It would have been nice to find out what Crable could do as a pass rusher - he was gone so quickly we barely saw a flash.

Woods doesn't (didn't) scare anyone, he had his moments but didn't jump out.

Vrabel was nearly invisible but for a game or two, I think he's finished as an IMPACT player.

AD has so often looked like a square peg in a round hole during his time here, and that's a bummer when you think how good he's been when turned loose like he was during the drive to our last SB.

The front 3? Eh, none of them have had a striking effect on the pass rush in quite a while. Green appears to be our best pass rushing D lineman but he is a part time player.

That leaves us with one accomplished rusher still in form - Thomas, and he hasn't always been allowed to go full tilt for the QB, and a part-timer, Green, as the only two rushers that cause any regular concern.

That's a sad commentary on our D. We need some young, fire breathing OLB's desperately, and someone on the front 3 who can mount consistent penetration on passing downs. An effective blitzing safety would help as well - one bright spot is that Meriweather seemed to be warming to that role this year.

I've been crabbing for 2+ years that the pass rush was faltering, now it's in complete shambles.

 

[AzPatsFan]

It would have been nice to find out what Crable could do as a pass rusher - he was gone so quickly we barely saw a flash.

Woods doesn't (didn't) scare anyone, he had his moments but didn't jump out.

Vrabel was nearly invisible but for a game or two, I think he's finished as an IMPACT player.

AD has so often looked like a square peg in a round hole during his time here, and that's a bummer when you think how good he's been when turned loose like he was during the drive to our last SB.

The front 3? Eh, none of them have had a striking effect on the pass rush in quite a while. Green appears to be our best pass rushing D lineman but he is a part time player.

That leaves us with one accomplished rusher still in form - Thomas, and he hasn't always been allowed to go full tilt for the QB, and a part-timer, Green, as the only two rushers that cause any regular concern.

That's a sad commentary on our D. We need some young, fire breathing OLB's desperately, and someone on the front 3 who can mount consistent penetration on passing downs. An effective blitzing safety would help as well - one bright spot is that Meriweather seemed to be warming to that role this year.

I've been crabbing for 2+ years that the pass rush was faltering, now it's in complete shambles.

Richard Seymour was a defensive pass rush all by himself. He had 8.5 sacks and an inordinate amount of pressures and hurries. The loss of the interior ILB pass rush as well as injuries to the OLBs, evaporated the LB rush.

That is why I want a pass rushing ILB, who is equally facile in pass defense. That guy is not a Maualuga, a two down run stuffer,or another OLB candidate, but rather James Lauranitis. He has more INTs than Moore and more sacks than any other ILB.

 

[DocE]

I got to thinking that I might have been unfair in my assessment of the secondary's preformance this past season so I decided to take a look at their overall statistical preformance. What jumped out at me, and I have bolded below, is how really poorly the secondary really did play. It was worse than I thought.

NFL Football Statistics and League Leaders - National Football League - ESPN

The Patriots finished 10th in the league in overall defense giving up 309 yards/game.

They finished 11th in passing defense giving up 201.4 yards/game.
They finished 16th in completion percentage at 60.8%
They finished 25th in yards per attempt at 7.3 YPA
They finished 31st in passing TD allowed at 27

They finished 15th in rushing defense at 1722 total yards and 107.6 ypg
They finished 4th in rushing TD allowed with 8

Their give away/take away was +1 the defense had 14 interceptions and 8 fumble recoveries.

The pass defense could have been even worse statistically when you think about it. The Pats played a lot of bad weather games this year that had a significant effect on the passing game. The Pittsburgh game in the rain, The Arizona game, and the Buffalo game on the road come immediately to mind.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The Patriots Defense to listen to you Cassandras, was just TERRIBLE.

Sorry you are wrong. It finished as the Top Ten rated Defense, and 8th in points allowed. No matter how you search for the damning statistics, those are the ones that count. We don't need or want a Blitzing Defense. Belichick has proven over a decade, and four SB appearances, that sound fundamental, Defense strangles opponents,crushing the life out of them like a Boa Constrictor.

"Bend don't Break" is the anti-thesis of wild blitzing. And it works. The Pats only allowed a near league low 40 penetrations into their Red Zone. True they then surrendered a large percentage, (of a low number) of TDs when opponents finally managed to get there, but that will improve with experience.

Pass Rush and coverage count for little in Red Zone Defense. Correct execution, and no mistakes, count for a lot more. Rookie and newcomers made mistakes. The experience the newcomers got, will automatically improve the RZ Defense.

Why? In the RZ, DBs can't be out-run; there is no room. Short passes, (that's all that there are!), negate any Pass Rush. There is no time to get to the QB. This Defense is now big, young and fast; not just big.

In addition, the Defense played 9 new comers to the Defense, and still finished in the Top Ten in the League. And did this despite season ending injuries to 5 starters.

This Defense, when it matures next season, will join the Offense as a Top Five squad. Even the mighty 2007 Patriots edition, didn't have that kind of balance on both sides of the Ball. It is now also very young and fast. There are only four players over thirty, and one of them the oldest, is already a reserve. The others are still in their early thirties, and still in their Prime. Adequate replacements for all, are on the roster and even better newcomers are in prospect from the upcoming draft.

It will be augmented by a double draft. The Offense, so powerful and record setting in 2007, actually got stronger in 2008. The Patriots developed an awesome rushing game. There is more good proven depth at QB, RB, WR and in the Offensive Line than in 2007. The Offense actually needs little to no attention; so all efforts can be focused on further improving that already Top Ten Defense.

The Juggernaut is building, and you can't talk it down, no matter how hard you try.