Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts) [merged]

[PatsFanInVa]

I provided a courteous response that will shed light on the issue for Pats fans, Pats haters and everyone interested in the story: talk to Belichick, get every last detail out of him. Then the debates and speculation will end. I'm curious myself, but I know we'll never hear a peep out of him, so I am moving on.

Rich actually brings up a great point:

The Pats organization, including Belichick, have a lot to consider in every utterance. We have only to consider the collection and effective presentation of the known facts. We can do things they can't (or shouldn't, given their position.)

For that very reason, I doubt we'd get anything like a blessing from the organization. But if anybody knows a guy that knows a guy...

Thanks for moving on, Rich. I mean that, and not trying to be snide. I can appreciate your take on things, so thanks for leaving some space where an activist approach on the same events can have what success is possible.

PFnV

 

[upstater1]

Rich actually brings up a great point:

The Pats organization, including Belichick, have a lot to consider in every utterance. We have only to consider the collection and effective presentation of the known facts. We can do things they can't (or shouldn't, given their position.)

For that very reason, I doubt we'd get anything like a blessing from the organization. But if anybody knows a guy that knows a guy...

Thanks for moving on, Rich. I mean that, and not trying to be snide. I can appreciate your take on things, so thanks for leaving some space where an activist approach on the same events can have what success is possible.

PFnV

PFnV,
I'm just curious as to what more he needs to say to put this to bed.
1. Walkthrough? He said he's never even heard of ANY walkthrough being filmed in his entire career.
2. Spygate? He has said they use it for future games and don't get around to breaking it down until a week after the last game. He also said that they use advance scouts to steal signals from opposing coaches for the upcoming game. This is a statement that the Patriots are in the business of stealing signals legally, still to this day.
3. He's acknowledged the punishment and the mistaken interpretation. What more needs to be said?

So, essentially, I'm wondering what more you are curious about that Belichick could possibly shed light on.

 

[richpats]

Thanks for moving on, Rich. I mean that, and not trying to be snide. I can appreciate your take on things, so thanks for leaving some space where an activist approach on the same events can have what success is possible.

PFnV

I respect the spirit of what you're trying to do, even if I don't agree with it. I don't try to engage in squabbles with other posters, in fact I had 2 posts that were not controversial and then some other poster said that everyone sounded like crybabies, so I had a little fun with that, simply because I've had to endure some heat for speaking up before too.

Personally, I've done all that I have needed to do for Belichick - I forgave him. He made a mistake, maybe it was beneficial for him, maybe it was just dumb, who knows, but whatever happened, I moved on from it and focused on the next game, as he always does.

I think some try to exonerate him or some try to justify his actions just to make peace with their opinions on Belichick. Personally, Spygate has been hard to deal with, but the only way I can be at peace with the issue is to just forgive, accept the consequences and move on.

 

[upstater1]

You contributed a stat from a football game. He can't argue that. King writes a long weekly column, I doubt the guy fact-checks. You can't contribute any more information about videotaping than is already out there.

??? Huh? What?

That's the whole point of this thread!!!

to collect information that is already out there.

Man, what is your major defect?

 

[richpats]

??? Huh? What?

That's the whole point of this thread!!!

to collect information that is already out there.

Man, what is your major defect?

I'm going to let you continue the crusade, it's not worth the energy fighting tooth and nail.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm going to let you continue the crusade, it's not worth the energy fighting tooth and nail.

Yet you've done it in thread after thread..... hmmm

 

[PatsFanInVa]

PFnV,
I'm just curious as to what more he needs to say to put this to bed.
1. Walkthrough? He said he's never even heard of ANY walkthrough being filmed in his entire career.
2. Spygate? He has said they use it for future games and don't get around to breaking it down until a week after the last game. He also said that they use advance scouts to steal signals from opposing coaches for the upcoming game. This is a statement that the Patriots are in the business of stealing signals legally, still to this day.
3. He's acknowledged the punishment and the mistaken interpretation. What more needs to be said?

So, essentially, I'm wondering what more you are curious about that Belichick could possibly shed light on.

Upstater,

I do not know Belichick's thoughts. I am not telepathic. I do not believe him or anybody else in sports to be an angel (even Tony Dungy), and I do not believe Belichick or anybody else in sports to be the devil incarnate (regardless of the impressions of most sports fans.)

BB has come under fire for not disclosing quickly enough, contritely enough, etc. My point of view is that the League is a business, and each Team is a business, and their disclosure of information is bound to be strategically considered: For example, BB said he did not want to fully address the issue during the season, because they were still playing football. Now he has said what he has to say on the subject. That is also fine.

My point is that Belichick and the Pats organization have no evident interest in pointing out (for example) the long history of signal-stealing in the NFL, in some instances in identical fashion to the fashion the Pats are being nailed for, or to publically reiterate "hey we DID answer that," unless someone asks.

It quite simply is not the Pats' style to fight tooth and nail against every biased perception. The Pats' point of view seems to be that it is a business, on the business side, and a Team, on the field. Neither is a "media watchdog," which is the purpose of this nascent effort.

They can't be petty and try to keep the press honest -- for that matter, their own motives would be called into question. They are also probably mum right now for legal reasons as well. They are in the untenable position of trying to fight a rumor. Every attempt to fight the charge "just proves that there's a cover-up," in terms of the Pats themselves. The Pats themselves can't be the "media watchdog."

Well, we can -- with whatever degree of success we achieve. We're just fans with google and two brain cells to rub together, but the worst thing they can say is we're fans. They already knew that.

Hence the collection of every factual talking point we can muster

PFnV

 

[upstater1]

Upstater,

I do not know Belichick's thoughts. I am not telepathic. I do not believe him or anybody else in sports to be an angel (even Tony Dungy), and I do not believe Belichick or anybody else in sports to be the devil incarnate (regardless of the impressions of most sports fans.)

BB has come under fire for not disclosing quickly enough, contritely enough, etc. My point of view is that the League is a business, and each Team is a business, and their disclosure of information is bound to be strategically considered: For example, BB said he did not want to fully address the issue during the season, because they were still playing football. Now he has said what he has to say on the subject. That is also fine.

My point is that Belichick and the Pats organization have no evident interest in pointing out (for example) the long history of signal-stealing in the NFL, in some instances in identical fashion to the fashion the Pats are being nailed for, or to publically reiterate "hey we DID answer that," unless someone asks.

It quite simply is not this organization's style to fight tooth and nail against every biased perception. The organization's point of view is that it is a business, on the business side, and a Team, on the field. Neither is a "media watchdog," which is the purpose of this nascent effort.

They can't be petty and try to keep the press honest -- for that matter, their own motives would be called into question. Well, we can. We're just fans with google and two brain cells to rub together, but the worst thing they can say is we're fans. They already knew that.

Hence the collection of every factual talking point we can muster

PFnV

I was only referring to the poster's idea that Belichick needs to come clean.

On the walkthrough, on videotaping, on how the Patriots use opposition coaching signals, he already has.

I was only asking what more does he need to say?

 

[upstater1]

I'm going to let you continue the crusade, it's not worth the energy fighting tooth and nail.

Youre the one that said we only contributed what facts are already out there.

That's the point of this thread. To collect facts in an attempt to inform the medium.

It obviously worked with Peter King this morning. A lot of media do not seem to be in basic possession of the facts. King wasn't, so he changed his column thanks to Pats fans. All this despite you dismissal of PFnVA's project.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Okay, peace and progress, guys. I think we've agreed to disagree, let's just go with that. Next bump let's have more info. Info, I crave info! Feed me info!

PFnV

 

[PatriotsReign]

So you are implying that people who don't like being insulted are not grown up? Hmmm. I'm starting to get the picture with you.

Richpats, this is not a "debate" thread. As PFV said, we can respect your opinion, but please don't debate those who have chosen to put up a fight.

Step up and let us do what we're doing without trying to bring us down. NOt a big request...I know you can do it.

 

[fgssand]

What would be really helpful would be if anybody that can google up or has any access to the old days of football. Information about how teams used to gain their "edge" or "advantage" by taking photos of formations, or how they would figure out opposing signals and tip offs. Did they audio tape practices from across the field? Did they take old 8MM's and use them.

I am talking back in the 50's & 60's & 70's - before Big Brother was able to watch and record everything that was done, before Papparazzi & TMZ & media overkill was as busy as they now are recording every single burp, snort or activity that an athlete or coach is taking.

I think any kind of old historical bending of the rules would go along way in helping to frame where BB's actions stack up against the history of such goings on.

Certainly Paul Brown, Sid Gillman, Vince Lombardi, Papa Bear Halas were not angels....not even close. There must be information about the good old days that could be helpful as a frame of reference.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I noticed some of the early "ancient lore" links here, but I am also sure there is more out there...I started constructing the source document last night, a big clip file. As always -- the more the merrier. More about the old days? welcome. More primary look at the rule book (as in, not "about" the rule book, but the actual page of the book, or whole book?) Very welcome! Ditto the "Memo" from 2006, other examples of draft picks/fines and what they were for... etc.

Source it an post it!

PFnV

 

[PatsFanInVa]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8342214

This appeared here on another thread - Gene Upshaw saying "spygate" is a little overblown.

Also interesting from the POV of League vs. Outside World solidarity. Looks like it's labor and management against outside world on this one. (I.e., Specter shouldn't be planning on flipping labor against the league for his own purposes.)

PFnV

 

[Pats726]

Here are some passages I posted on another link, when it's back up I will post in it's entirety.

I think the search engine in the blog is down...truied to seach for articles and it led to a dead end.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

props to those who are trying to get the media to focus on facts. however, i also agree with those who argue that it won't do much good.

i also think that you are doing what the Krafts should have paid a boatload of money to a crisis/media consultant to start doing in September. IMO, the only people with the deep pockets and motivation to do what is suggested in the thread were the Krafts (I say "were," because the cow left the barn a long time ago). I stated out here on the day that the Spygate story broke that the Patriots organization had to get ahead of the story immediately with an aggressive media strategy. I was flamed :bricks: :violent:and was told that the story was going to die.

IMO, there are now four "audiences" when it comes to spygate.

1) The mediots who are so invested in bringing the Patriots down that nothing anyone can say or point out will get them to change their lines. They will respond to any (accurate) facts that we present with their own version of the same "facts" and they will get the last word, because they are "On Tee Vee," the Internet and Talk Radio or have a daily byline in a rag like the Herald and therefore have bigger soapboxes.

2) The frenzied fans, management and players of other teams who are frothing at the mouth in jealousy to ruin what the Patriots have accomplished and who will listen to no one and nothing that disagrees with them. As i discovered when i tried to "clarify a few facts" on the Jets board, they will not listen.

3) The small band of people like us who are loyal fans and who either believe the patriots or who constantly give them the benefit of the doubt.

4) the rest (and the vast majority of people around the country), including most sports fans and also many members of the media, who have been consistently highly critical of the original spygate activities, but who were willing to let the story die until Specter, Walsh and the Herald opened it up again. For these folks, now there is only one thing left to know: is there a tape of the XXXVI Walkthrough or isn't there? If there is not a tape, for them Spygate will slowly "go away," just like it was going away until Super Bowl week. If there is a tape, then they will write off everything the franchise has accomplished, up to asking that the SB XXXVI trophy be returned (and, BTW, it will do no good to argue that the tape was "unauthorized'; that argument will not get heard) and the Franchise will be toast for many years to come.

What folks out here are trying to do is admirable, but it is what the Krafts should have paid a million or so of their billion dollars to do from the very beginning. i sincerely believe that their strategy let down the players, the coaches and the fans .

 

[Calhoun44]

It would be interesting to send out the "finished product" to known skeptics (trolls) to get their feedback/criticisms. That would allow for re-organizing thoughts or tweeaking it a bit to clarify things. Also, I am thinking that this will be a great resource for folks when they are being harassed about the Pats "cheating". If it is clear and concise (easy to e-mai) I think it will get circulated alot and be very useful, regardless if the media uses it to present the other side. Thanks to all who are contributing to this effort. I look forward to "educating" a few of the guys on my softball team that keep giving me grief about this Sygate nonsense.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Calhoun, one aspect of this will have to be a website, for ease of retrieval for any in the media who are actually interested (we've started discussing this some in PMs). When we get to the point where we have a few subject-oriented fact sheets, each can be a fact-sheet page, as well as available as a download.

(In fact, if any of our number does web design/handles domain transactions/etc., PM me.)

Your point's a good one: trolls would be a good bunch to test-market on, through links in a thread here (where they are trolls.) We can just let them know it's up and work from that input -- possibly pre-"release."

PFnV

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Lovely, lovely. I was just looking for the "Operations Manual," and stumbled on a digest of the NFL's rule book (pretty easy to find, NFL.com.)

Check this one out:

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/unfairacts

No Club Protests
The authority and measures provided for in this section (UNFAIR ACTS) do not constitute a protest machinery for NFL clubs to dispute the result of a game. The Commissioner will conduct an investigation under this section only to review an act or occurrence that he deems so unfair that the result of the game in question may be inequitable to one of the participating teams. The Commissioner will not apply his authority under this section when a club registers a complaint concerning judgmental errors or routine errors of omission by game officials. Games involving such complaints will continue to stand as completed.

Now, obviously, the sense of this is that clubs can't go all "Unfair Act" about a pass interference call.

However, this section does seem to recap the authority of the commissioner. At no point does it say one side or the other must come forward for him to investigate. (The excuse for not investigating the Jets.)

Of course, I'm sure I have to get the actual Operations Manual to make sense of things.

PFnV

 

[upstater1]

Lovely, lovely. I was just looking for the "Operations Manual," and stumbled on a digest of the NFL's rule book (pretty easy to find, NFL.com.)

Check this one out:

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/unfairacts



Now, obviously, the sense of this is that clubs can't go all "Unfair Act" about a pass interference call.

However, this section does seem to recap the authority of the commissioner. At no point does it say one side or the other must come forward for him to investigate. (The excuse for not investigating the Jets.)

Of course, I'm sure I have to get the actual Operations Manual to make sense of things.

PFnV

You missed the memo that was set out. There was a picture of 3 monkeys on the memo. One of them was covering his ears. The other his eyes, the other his mouth. Belichick interpreted that to mean that the league "don't-ah know NOTHIN'"

He was wrong.