Can we now start to think the whole “Kraft is cheap” was more of a Belichick philosophy?

[Wozzy]

What you're saying at the end there ain't true, unless you're just referring to prolific passing stats.

Would any other active quarterback in 2001 have been able to lead that Patriots team to the title? No.

Warner, Manning, Favre, Gannon, Green, Collins, Plummer, Garcia, Johnson, McNair, Brunell, Fiedler, McNabb, Kitna, Stewart, Grbac, Chandler, Griese, Testaverde...Bledsoe.

A handful of guys you listed above were better QB's than Tom Brady was in 2001.

He threw one TD and one INT in the entire playoffs. They ran the ball, played a conservative time consuming brand of football, kicked field goals. A bunch of these guys could have done that.

Like BB said, Tom didn't become Tom until around 2003.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

A handful of guys you listed above were better QB's than Tom Brady was in 2001.

He threw one TD and one INT in the entire playoffs. They ran the ball, played a conservative time consuming brand of football, kicked field goals. A bunch of these guys could have done that.

Like BB said, Tom didn't become Tom until around 2003.

I have to totally disagree with ya...

What separates the very best quarterbacks? Statistically, there are lots more prolific passers among Montana, Flutie and Brady's peers. Lots. Racking up stats. TD's. Rushing yards.

Indeed, you are spot on that credit is due to Weis (who properly ran the ball and protected Tom-Josh could learn a lot from that), the rest of the coaches and Tom's teammates.

But, a bunch of these guys...none of those guys...would have made those plays, time after time, game after game, under the most pressure, with the game on the line, when they had to be made, while still protecting the ball, that season. Tom lost three starts all year: At Miami and at Denver, where the Patriots historically struggled for decades, and at home against the Rams, the best team during the season.

I think, a bit similarly, people like to talk about how much Drake Maye sucked in the postseason. I of course disagree...he made crucial plays for them to make it to Santa Clara in the post season, as he did during the regular schedule.

In fact I thought there was, in a sense, a dropoff in Brady's effectiveness later. At the end of That Horrible Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, the Pats could have tried to go down and kick a field goal to tie it up at the end of regulation. Instead, he threw the bomb to Moss. Not bad odds, but still riskier and less practical.

As the years went on, Brady was of course entirely in charge, maxing out his ability and effort - and experience - right to the end.

 

[Wozzy]

I have to totally disagree with ya...

What separates the very best quarterbacks? Statistically, there are lots more prolific passers among Montana, Flutie and Brady's peers. Lots. Racking up stats. TD's. Rushing yards.

Indeed, you are spot on that credit is due to Weis (who properly ran the ball and protected Tom-Josh could learn a lot from that), the rest of the coaches and Tom's teammates.

But, a bunch of these guys...none of those guys...would have made those plays, time after time, game after game, under the most pressure, with the game on the line, when they had to be made, while still protecting the ball, that season. Tom lost three starts all year: At Miami and at Denver, where the Patriots historically struggled for decades, and at home against the Rams, the best team during the season.

I think, a bit similarly, people like to talk about how much Drake Maye sucked in the postseason. I of course disagree...he made crucial plays for them to make it to Santa Clara in the post season, as he did during the regular schedule.

In fact I thought there was, in a sense, a dropoff in Brady's effectiveness later. At the end of That Horrible Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, the Pats could have tried to go down and kick a field goal to tie it up at the end of regulation. Instead, he threw the bomb to Moss. Not bad odds, but still riskier and less practical.

As the years went on, Brady was of course entirely in charge, maxing out his ability and effort - and experience - right to the end.

You're making an assumption based off what we know happened with a wet behind the ears QB that Charlie Weis was protecting from himself. If Kurt Warner, Jeff Gannon or a few other of those guys are under center, it's more probable than not the Patriots aren't playing in games that were closer than the skin on your teeth. Weis is not holding back with a vet QB with more accuracy than Bledsoe. Gannon has a ring, Brad Johnson has a ring, Warner has a ring... there was good QB play before Brady arrived in the NFL, and there will be long after.

Tom Brady wasn't some transcendent QB in 2001... he was a game manager who made some crucial drives which they frankly wouldn't have been in with a better more veteran QB.

People want to ascribe magic powers to QB's, they don't have magic powers... especially at 24 years old, his first season starting, with among the highest sack percentage, interception percentage, fumble totals and lowest yards per game passing of his 23 year career.

Drake Maye started games on the 4 win team as a rookie, he started on the Super Bowl appearing team this past season... it wasn't because Drake made some quantum leap in development in year two. Team is more important than any one player.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Like BB said, Tom didn't become Tom until around 2003.

Without Brady in 2002, the Patriots were a 6-10 team. Brady showed up in 2 shootouts (KC, Chicago) and one really tough week 17 game coming back from a 21-10 deficit. The defense was atrocious and he didn't have much to work with on offense, yet still led the league in TD passes. The "big FA signing" Donald Hayes was a dud, Branch and Graham were rookies and the running game sucked. Meanwhile in Buffalo, Bledsoe had a 1,400 yard rusher, two 1,200 yard WR's, an easier schedule, but somehow went 8-8. There's no way he would've matched Brady's 9-7 record in 2002. Brady had his struggles in 2003, but he showed up almost every time he had to aside from the bizarre Washington game and the week 1 blowout at Buffalo. After the Super Bowl in 2003 convinced people Tom was for real. But 2004 was when we saw Brady take it to another level with the dominating ground game opening up the play action passing game.

A handful of guys you listed above were better QB's than Tom Brady was in 2001.

He threw one TD and one INT in the entire playoffs. They ran the ball, played a conservative time consuming brand of football, kicked field goals. A bunch of these guys could have done that.

Brady was rough in 2001, but nobody expected him to be all world making his first starts of his career. The weather severely limited Oakland, yet had a 10 point lead in the snow. Had there been clear skies, Oakland would've given them a lot of trouble.

You're making an assumption based off what we know happened with a wet behind the ears QB that Charlie Weis was protecting from himself. If Kurt Warner, Jeff Gannon or a few other of those guys are under center, it's more probable than not the Patriots aren't playing in games that were closer than the skin on your teeth. Weis is not holding back with a vet QB with more accuracy than Bledsoe. Gannon has a ring, Brad Johnson has a ring, Warner has a ring... there was good QB play before Brady arrived in the NFL, and there will be long after.

Tom Brady wasn't some transcendent QB in 2001... he was a game manager who made some crucial drives which they frankly wouldn't have been in with a better more veteran QB.

People want to ascribe magic powers to QB's, they don't have magic powers... especially at 24 years old, his first season starting, with among the highest sack percentage, interception percentage, fumble totals and lowest yards per game passing of his 23 year career.

Drake Maye started games on the 4 win team as a rookie, he started on the Super Bowl appearing team this past season... it wasn't because Drake made some quantum leap in development in year two. Team is more important than any one player.

This is hard to assume because Gannon wasn't that great until he linked up with Gruden in Oakland and had HOF WR's at his disposal. Warner also had future HOF's at WR, RB and LT.

On the other hand, the Pats offense was not built to be in shootouts and many QB's would've folded because they require more at their disposal much like Bledsoe did.

 

[Wozzy]

Without Brady in 2002, the Patriots were a 6-10 team. Brady showed up in 2 shootouts (KC, Chicago) and one really tough week 17 game coming back from a 21-10 deficit. The defense was atrocious and he didn't have much to work with on offense, yet still led the league in TD passes. The "big FA signing" Donald Hayes was a dud, Branch and Graham were rookies and the running game sucked. Meanwhile in Buffalo, Bledsoe had a 1,400 yard rusher, two 1,200 yard WR's, an easier schedule, but somehow went 8-8. There's no way he would've matched Brady's 9-7 record in 2002. Brady had his struggles in 2003, but he showed up almost every time he had to aside from the bizarre Washington game and the week 1 blowout at Buffalo. After the Super Bowl in 2003 convinced people Tom was for real. But 2004 was when we saw Brady take it to another level with the dominating ground game opening up the play action passing game.

Brady's highest interception, sack and fumble percentages came in his first four years starting. That's not unique, most rookies take time to develop. The suggestion that Tom was different is revisionist history, mostly by people who were 12 years old in 2001-2004. He wasn't great and they still won a ring in 2001, that makes him no different than Trent Dilfer or Nick Foles.

Brady was rough in 2001, but nobody expected him to be all world making his first starts of his career. The weather severely limited Oakland, yet had a 10 point lead in the snow. Had there been clear skies, Oakland would've given them a lot of trouble.

This is hard to assume because Gannon wasn't that great until he linked up with Gruden in Oakland and had HOF WR's at his disposal. Warner also had future HOF's at WR, RB and LT.

Gannon made the All Pro and Pro Bowl teams for two years prior to 2001, he was pretty good... better than Tom at that time. Kurt Warner is in the HOF and led the most explosive offense in the league at that time, Farve, Brad Johnson, Steve McNair.... there were good QB's in the NFL before Brady arrived.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Brady's highest interception, sack and fumble percentages came in his first four years starting. That's not unique, most rookies take time to develop. The suggestion that Tom was different is revisionist history, mostly by people who were 12 years old in 2001-2004. He wasn't great and they still won a ring in 2001, that makes him no different than Trent Dilfer or Nick Foles.

As I mentioned in previous posts, I didn't care much for Brady during the 2001 season. However, he stayed in his lane and managed the game. And I agree he did make some really idiotic throws during his first few years in the NFL. He cleaned that up by 2007, but still had his blunders after.

Gannon made the All Pro and Pro Bowl teams for two years prior to 2001, he was pretty good... better than Tom at that time. Kurt Warner is in the HOF and led the most explosive offense in the league at that time, Farve, Brad Johnson, Steve McNair.... there were good QB's in the NFL before Brady arrived.

You must be mistaking him for someone else because Gannon only made the Pro Bowl and All Pro with the Raiders.

 

[Wozzy]

As I mentioned in previous posts, I didn't care much for Brady during the 2001 season. However, he stayed in his lane and managed the game. And I agree he did make some really idiotic throws during his first few years in the NFL. He cleaned that up by 2007, but still had his blunders after.

I don’t understand the opinion that nobody else could have done it.

You must be mistaking him for someone else because Gannon only made the Pro Bowl and All Pro with the Raiders.

Correct, he was on the Raiders for two years before 2001. He was a good QB.

 

[Huckleberry1]

It was a slow but steep descent, and I don't think Bob was the driving force. Jonathan clearly was taking control as Bob started losing his fastball.... and he wanted a younger more modern team.

Wolf was hired at the end of 2020, Bob announced "collaboration" and stripped BB of some control entering 2021 at the owner's meeting. This overlaps with BB saying almost a year ago that there was disconnect going back the last four years. There were also reports that Jonathan was making Bill's life difficult, and somebody other than Bill certainly pushed for a conversion to a West Coast offensive system in 2020... Bill derided the system as "easy to defend," he wasn't changing it willingly.

I agree, time ran out on the Bill and the franchise. They were going in opposite directions. And just as I said when Tom left to go to Tampa, all things end... nothing lasts forever. I'm just glad the Krafts recognized the disaster that was Mayo and hired one of the two guys I was lobbying for in the 2024 offseason.

Flat out lie. Wolf never had any power over Belichick. Belichick had total control until the day he was fired.

 

[Wozzy]

Flat out lie. Wolf never had any power over Belichick. Belichick had total control until the day he was fired.

Bob and Jonathan Kraft had the power, they own the team. Suggesting an employee has power over the employer is some real glue sniffing logic.

Entering the 2021 season at the owner’s meeting Bob Kraft announced that personnel would become a collaboration, just after Wolf was hired. The owner said that…. the guy who signs the checks.

At the beginning of last season, Bill gave an interview and corroborated that personnel wasn’t under his control the last few years here. It lined up perfectly with the start of collaboration, Bill said that.

Sorry, but your resentment for Bill doesn’t change facts. We saw Wolf on his own in the 2024 off-season without Bill’s collaboration… it was a disaster.

 

[rkarp1]

I fully believe at the early stage of ownership, RK was cash strapped.
as the tide changed, Bill came on board and managed the roster, cap and cash spent to his philosophy. I am firmly convinced RK game him complete leeway with roster, staff and travel spending.
no one can argue Bill did it all very successfully, and RK was wise to stay out of Bill's way.
but the league changed as the cap exploded. teams pushed cap, and overspent chasing a title. Bill held fast, and the Pats were left out. lots of blame sent at Mac Jones, collaboration and everyone and anything not Bill. but the truth is the league changed, and Bill did not.
missed draft choices, poor free agent decisions and thinking John Foxboro could play QB in his system were the teams downfall.
cheap? I don't see it. stadium and facility upgrades. pictures of the planes interior show how plush it is. publicly shamed in last years grades, given 2-3 years, I expect the team to be in the top 10 soon.

 

[Wozzy]

I fully believe at the early stage of ownership, RK was cash strapped.
as the tide changed, Bill came on board and managed the roster, cap and cash spent to his philosophy. I am firmly convinced RK game him complete leeway with roster, staff and travel spending.

The Pats were near last in cash spending through Parcell's and Pete Carroll's tenures as well.

Travel spending? Bill didn't book flights or have control over amenity spending. Football operations is limited to the product on the field.

Spending to the cap and having a strong middle class was BB's and Scott Pioli's philosophy, it's a smart method that still holds up today... regardless of what the cap does... the cap always went up.

no one can argue Bill did it all very successfully, and RK was wise to stay out of Bill's way.
but the league changed as the cap exploded. teams pushed cap, and overspent chasing a title. Bill held fast, and the Pats were left out. lots of blame sent at Mac Jones, collaboration and everyone and anything not Bill. but the truth is the league changed, and Bill did not.
missed draft choices, poor free agent decisions and thinking John Foxboro could play QB in his system were the teams downfall.
cheap? I don't see it. stadium and facility upgrades. pictures of the planes interior show how plush it is. publicly shamed in last years grades, given 2-3 years, I expect the team to be in the top 10 soon.

Sounds all well and good, except we were told BB was a poor drafter the entire time he was winning 3 rings from 2014-2018. Things didn't totally nosedive until collaboration really set in, they even made a playoff berth with a backup QB in 2021.

Teams need a clear leader, collaboration wasn't that. Bill's drafting was up and down depending on who his player personnel guy was at the time, but he never had issues finding free agents or knowing who was good. A power struggle caused it to collapse in the end. We saw the same dog crap collaboration in 2024 without Bill's input and it was just as disastrous as the power struggle from years prior.

Vrabel and Cowden brought a vision and knowledge of personnel, they also provided a single leader in charge and a clear mandate. You can't have multiple chefs in the kitchen, that never works.

Cash spending is not why players and former coaches called New England cheap... bologna sandwiches is why, and despite what you will say Bill wasn't slapping together bread and meat.

 

[rkarp1]

The Pats were near last in cash spending through Parcell's and Pete Carroll's tenures as well.

Travel spending? Bill didn't book flights or have control over amenity spending. Football operations is limited to the product on the field.

Spending to the cap and having a strong middle class was BB's and Scott Pioli's philosophy, it's a smart method that still holds up today... regardless of what the cap does... the cap always went up.

Sounds all well and good, except we were told BB was a poor drafter the entire time he was winning 3 rings from 2014-2018. Things didn't totally nosedive until collaboration really set in, they even made a playoff berth with a backup QB in 2021.

Teams need a clear leader, collaboration wasn't that. Bill's drafting was up and down depending on who his player personnel guy was at the time, but he never had issues finding free agents or knowing who was good. A power struggle caused it to collapse in the end. We saw the same dog crap collaboration in 2024 without Bill's input and it was just as disastrous as the power struggle from years prior.

Vrabel and Cowden brought a vision and knowledge of personnel, they also provided a single leader in charge and a clear mandate. You can't have multiple chefs in the kitchen, that never works.

Cash spending is not why players and former coaches called New England cheap... bologna sandwiches is why, and despite what you will say Bill wasn't slapping together bread and meat.

Parcells and Carroll were last century, when Kraft had just bought the team and was cash strapped. try to keep up.
The decisions when to go out to play on the west coast, for how long and who traveled, were Bill's decisions.

Bill, thru his hires, was not day to day hands on, but everyone in the building marched to Bill's directions. everyone. including the nutrition, training and cafeteria.
RK and JK said it publicly. they never questioned or said no to Bill. It was time they took back their franchise.

 

[Wozzy]

Parcells and Carroll were last century, when Kraft had just bought the team and was cash strapped. try to keep up.
The decisions when to go out to play on the west coast, for how long and who traveled, were Bill's decisions.

Bill, thru his hires, was not day to day hands on, but everyone in the building marched to Bill's directions. everyone. including the nutrition, training and cafeteria.
RK and JK said it publicly. they never questioned or said no to Bill. It was time they took back their franchise.

The NFLPA just voted they suck the last two years in a row. Was that "last century?"

The franchise is one of the most valued franchises in all of pro sports.... thanks BB.

No reason for sub adequate facilities, gym, amenities, bologna sandwiches, plane seats or things that can affect the product on the field. And that is ownership's responsibility to maintain... not the coach of the football team. The coach isn't cutting checks for new buildings... give us a break.

 

[rkarp1]

The NFLPA just voted they suck the last two years in a row. Was that "last century?"

The franchise is one of the most valued franchises in all of pro sports.... thanks BB.

No reason for sub adequate facilities, gym, amenities, bologna sandwiches, plane seats or things that can affect the product on the field. And that is ownership's responsibility to maintain... not the coach of the football team. The coach isn't cutting checks for new buildings... give us a break.

the Patriots scored poorly with locker room, weight room and training room. new facilities are almost complete. once they are, they will be league best..

 

[Wozzy]

the Patriots scored poorly with locker room, weight room and training room. new facilities are almost complete. once they are, they will be league best..

They were publicly shamed into "new facilities," shaming works.

 

[vicspats]

Kraft has been getting crap for years for not spending in free agency and only being active in free agency once every three years. But this year is disproving this theory. Sure the Patriots aren’t spending like they did last year, but they have been as active this week signing talent as almost any other team in the league.

Whether or not you like the players they added, you have to admit they have aggressively addressed the biggest weaknesses and needs of the team from last year. And by all accounts, they are not done and are actively seeking trades. They aren’t just sitting back and waiting for the draft and whatever left overs are left in free agency come the end of March as we have seen in other years.

The evidence points to being cheap was more of a Belichick thing. Look at the Belichick coaching staffs and front office personnel as proof. Belichick had one of the smallest staffs and didn’t believe in creating departments like analytics or sports science. Could you image Belichick having a passing game coordinator like Vrabel has? Many years, his coordinators had position coaching responsibilities on top of their own responsibilities. Patricia was OC and o-line coach Belichick’s last year. Granted Thomas Brown is TEs coach on top of passing game coordinator.

Since Wolf took over GM responsibilities, he has been expanding the scouting department where Belichick ran a bare bones operation.

The Patriots could go back next year to their old selves and be totally inactive in free agency after being aggressive these past two years. But I tend to doubt it. Assuming they have another successful draft and these free agency signings are successful, they will have less holes to fill next year. So they may be less aggressive to sign as many players, but they may still go after players.

Belichick had a lot of success. So you can’t trash his philosophy too much. But a lot of years, Belichick the genius coach and Brady the GOAT QB had to overcome lack of talent. But I get the feeling that Belichick was the “cheap” one.

Que the Elon Musk philosophy.. do with less.

 

[Rob0729]

Que the Elon Musk philosophy.. do with less.

I thought the Elon Musk philosophy was to get the government to subsidize your companies.

And I am not being political. being factual. Would say the same thing no matter Elon's politics.