Any Thoughts on Impacts of a Treveyon Henderson Holdout? (Update: He's Signed)

[Ring 6]

Sure but I would argue saying to someone "you can't negotiate as much you could get because a bunch of vets agreed to put a ceiling on you because they want more of the pie" then there's a reasonable perspective that a trade off of making lower value rookie contracts guaranteed is fairer.

Teams and other vets on the team are already on the team are gaining far more not having to deal with some young guy out of college who has a ton of leverage saying "give me the big bucks before I do anything or you don't get me"

In the end 1 million a year for most rookies being on the books (something that will readjust to be mostly equalized) isn't going to be as much of an albatross as the old way

I’m not really trying to argue “fair” that’s a doomed argument.

Just saying the consequence of guaranteed contracts is born by the players themselves and a system that pays money to guys who aren’t playing at the expense of guys who are seems less than optimal to me.

Arguing the poor guy making a million dollars to play football should get paid whether he can play or not has to take into account he is taking that away from other players.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You are missing the point. The consequence of guaranteed contracts is that for everyone that benefits from it another player suffers.
The difference would be that a guy who is released still gets paid. Under a salary cap that means less money for players on the roster. As a group players don’t gain anything, it’s just shifting money from some players to others.

The CBA creates a fixed salary cap. If Henderson is guaranteed an amount and busts, that hurts other team mates that make it. Having said that I don't blame him for wanting his share guaranteed.

In theory, you are correct but we've seen NFL teams pay players time and time again by extending cash paid year one and spreading it out over year 2, 3, and 4.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

In theory, you are correct but we've seen NFL teams pay players time and time again by extending cash paid year one and spreading it out over year 2, 3, and 4.

This is like Felger's the cap is crap. A business has a P&L, a Balance Sheet, and a Cash Flow (Funds) statement. All three are required to see the whole picture. It appears as though you are only considering the P&L like Felger.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This is like Felger's the cap is crap. A business has a P&L, a Balance Sheet, and a Cash Flow (Funds) statement. All three are required to see the whole picture. It appears as though you are only considering the P&L like Felger.

No. I'm considering how NFL owners actually spend money and their lack of self control.

 

[maust]

No. I'm considering how NFL owners actually spend money and their lack of self control.

So we're posting what we're considering? 'Cause me I'm over here considering how the same guys that *****ed about the cheap ass owner pocketing the money not spent got from there to it now being a zero sum game. I mean, given their prior position, why wouldn't that cash just come outta the supposedly cheap ass owner's pockets? After all according to their logic he was just pocketing it anyway

As for comparing the business of the NFL to business in the real world, that's well beyond the skills of mortal men. If someone ran their real world business the way NFL owners run theirs at the very least they'd be broke or in jail, more likely both. Since the advent of the cap to own an NFL franchise is to be totally immunized against the consequences of your own stupidity and/or impulsivity while being guaranteed a massive profit regardless of the exercise of either. Nice F'n work if you can get it.

 

[Triumph]

Basically, this guaranteed salary business incentivizes NCAA players to be chosen in round 2 and cash in.

If you're a RB, have all your skills honed down sharp. Be proficient receiving and rushing. Be the best blocking RB in the draft class.

 

[XLIX]

How do the rank and file lose? Is TreyVeon Henderson the rank and file? Is it the 7 year vet?

The Players' problem is that it is a zero sum game. Due to the nature of the salary cap, if you give more and more to one group then you have to take it from another group. With all contracts fully guaranteed, the top players will get more and more. That leaves less for the average Joe.

For the rank and file, signing bonuses will be smaller and overall total contract value will be smaller. The regular players are not going to get the same contracts they are currently getting if it is all guaranteed.

As a rookie, TreVeon Henderson is a slightly separate matter since his salary is pre-determined. But suppose he - or any of the other 2nd rounders with guaranteed deals - are total busts. They will still get their millions, which will take away from other, more deserving players.

 

[XLIX]

In that case, there should be no rookie wage scale.

There absolutely should be no rookie wage scale. I believe the rookie wage scale to be so egregious that I would love to see it challenged in court one day (though I doubt that day will ever come).

The "every man for himself" mentality of the NFLPA makes it very, very easy for the current members to screw over the future members. As I noted above, it is a zero sum game. As such, less money for the rookies means more money for the vets.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The Players' problem is that it is a zero sum game. Due to the nature of the salary cap, if you give more and more to one group then you have to take it from another group. With all contracts fully guaranteed, the top players will get more and more. That leaves less for the average Joe.

For the rank and file, signing bonuses will be smaller and overall total contract value will be smaller. The regular players are not going to get the same contracts they are currently getting if it is all guaranteed.

As a rookie, TreVeon Henderson is a slightly separate matter since his salary is pre-determined. But suppose he - or any of the other 2nd rounders with guaranteed deals - are total busts. They will still get their millions, which will take away from other, more deserving players.

You and others are conflating cap and cash. They are not the same.

The NHL has a hard cap and issues guaranteed deals and they don't have the problem you believe will exist with guaranteed deals in the NFL. When an NHL team can't afford a high-priced player, they don't resign them or trade them and are signed by a team the following year with cap space. The same team then pays less expensive players or gives them a raise.

 

[XLIX]

You and others are conflating cap and cash. They are not the same.

No, I am not. I understand fully how the NFL salary cap works and why guaranteed deals will lead to lower signing bonus, shorter deals and lower overall contract values.

The NHL has a hard cap and issues guaranteed deals and they don't have the problem you believe will exist with guaranteed deals in the NFL. When an NHL team can't afford a high-priced player, they don't resign them or trade them and are signed by a team the following year with cap space. The same team then pays less expensive players or gives them a raise.

We're talking about the NFL in here. What the sad sack NHL does is completely irrelevant.

 

[Huckleberry1]

There absolutely should be no rookie wage scale. I believe the rookie wage scale to be so egregious that I would love to see it challenged in court one day (though I doubt that day will ever come).

The "every man for himself" mentality of the NFLPA makes it very, very easy for the current members to screw over the future members. As I noted above, it is a zero sum game. As such, less money for the rookies means more money for the vets.

When you get right down to it the draft itself is illegal. I love the draft, but it’s ****ed up that players are told where they have to play to get paid for their services.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No, I am not. I understand fully how the NFL salary cap works and why guaranteed deals will lead to lower signing bonus, shorter deals and lower overall contract values.
We're talking about the NFL in here. What the sad sack NHL does is completely irrelevant.

Dismiss the NHL all you want. It's the same financial model as the NFL's only with guaranteed contracts and we do not see the economic fallout from guaranteed deals in their league as you imply the NFL would.

 

[XLIX]

Dismiss the NHL all you want. It's the same financial model as the NFL's only with guaranteed contracts and we do not see the economic fallout from guaranteed deals in their league as you imply the NFL would.

Of course we do, you just don't realize it because you don't know what it would look like without the guaranteed contracts.

 

[Ring 6]

In theory, you are correct but we've seen NFL teams pay players time and time again by extending cash paid year one and spreading it out over year 2, 3, and 4.

But whatever they are doing still impacts the available cap room. If a guy is cut and you have to keep paying him it affects payroll regardless of sleight of hand. Every dollar spent catches up

 

[Ring 6]

Dismiss the NHL all you want. It's the same financial model as the NFL's only with guaranteed contracts and we do not see the economic fallout from guaranteed deals in their league as you imply the NFL would.

Sure you do. Guaranteed contracts to players who are no longer playing reduces the available money. You can’t pick an example because it’s built in. You can’t show who they would have signed with more money or which players would have been paid more because the scenario where the guaranteed wasted money is there doesn’t exist.

 

[Ring 6]

So we're posting what we're considering? 'Cause me I'm over here considering how the same guys that *****ed about the cheap ass owner pocketing the money not spent got from there to it now being a zero sum game. I mean, given their prior position, why wouldn't that cash just come outta the supposedly cheap ass owner's pockets? After all according to their logic he was just pocketing it anyway

As for comparing the business of the NFL to business in the real world, that's well beyond the skills of mortal men. If someone ran their real world business the way NFL owners run theirs at the very least they'd be broke or in jail, more likely both. Since the advent of the cap to own an NFL franchise is to be totally immunized against the consequences of your own stupidity and/or impulsivity while being guaranteed a massive profit regardless of the exercise of either. Nice F'n work if you can get it.

Theoretically the cheap owner in a vacuum would bear the expense but that’s surface level thinking because
1) most teams do spend to the cap and
2) the owner who sets a budget below the cap is the last one to raise his budget because he has to pay a few million to guys that are many even on his team.
Those teams might be most affected

FYI pointing out facts isn’t “*****ing”

 

[Triumph]

But whatever they are doing still impacts the available cap room. If a guy is cut and you have to keep paying him it affects payroll regardless of sleight of hand. Every dollar spent catches up

What else is new?

Nothing. Its always been this way. The Pats have always paid out dead money every season to players no longer on the team. Things got real in the 2nd round. Don't want to burn through all your cap money? Then don't draft lousy players who suck. If this is 2024 and youre the Pats, you don't roll the dice on Polka Dot and instead take Ladd McConkey @ # 2 pick.

Henderson is making 3 mil preseason which is peanuts if he is a good RB which I believe that he will be.

 

[Water Boy]

I'm not sure why people are advocating for guaranteed contracts in football. We all want to see players earn what they deserve, but just look at the Deshaun Watson contract. That was akin to an MLB contract and he hasn't earned a single nickel of it so Cleveland fans will have to see their team do with less for the foreseeable future.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Could you explain how "it costs jobs"? From the example you gave, it wouldn't eliminate a job, just change the person who is willing to take a lower paying wage. Maybe that was your point? Or maybe I am missing some detail from earlier in the thread that the player with the guaranteed contract still takes up a roster spot?

Exactly. The number of jobs remains the same, those with the jobs changes.

 

[Real fan 02]

If he misses camp practices it’s a problem.

Looks like that won't be happening..