The Bill megathread (HC at UNC, girlfriend, etc.)

[signbabybrady]

Some people just can’t control themselves.

 

[captain stone]

We keep getting different stories for 1996, but Grier was in charge from 1997-1999. As much as he did such a terrible job during that time, he was the deciding factor in BB drafting Tom Brady. Rehbein brought Tom Brady to BB's attention, but without Grier's connection to Lloyd Carr, BB probably doesn't draft him. I think this was noted in the Documentary.

Didn't Pioli also say that basically, they're into mid-later Day 3 and Brady's still available and he was now at this point their best available prospect BY FAR on their board and there was no longer a valid reason Not to take him...?

Hadn't known of the Booby Grier-Lloyd Carr connection; or if I had I've long forgotten...

 

[captain stone]

Genius drafted a ****ing FULLBACK with his First Round Pick.

 

[signbabybrady]

Genius drafted a ****ing FULLBACK with his First Round Pick.

Wasn't his best pick. Genius drafted some hall of Famers too.

 

[signbabybrady]

I put this in the dudes on dudes thread but it belongs here too.

 

[Bill Lee]

"I did not speak out because I was not a Jewish. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."


I may not be the hero you want but I'm one you need. We as a Patriot message board can't let this go unchecked. The world must know that there are true Patriots fans that will speak out against this BS.

 

[Bill Lee]

I put this in the dudes on dudes thread but it belongs here too.

Belichick was Robert Kraft’s greatest move as an owner

Belichick was Jordan Hudson's greatest move as an owner

 

[Huckleberry1]

Back in 2000:

a.) Belichick was using Grier's draft board.

b.) We already had 3 QB's on the roster: Bledsoe who was just signed to a huge contract, Friesz who was the veteran clipboard carrier, and Bishop who was some good at Kansas State (remember that Hail Mary TD he had on his first career attempt vs. the Colts just before halftime?....Fun game that day).

c.) **** Rehbein was the guy begging us to draft Brady.

d.) Even though Brady outplayed Henson most of the time....Brady was still a part time starter in college....right or wrong....

e.) Brady was not a dual threat QB. Which was all of the vogue back in 2000 with guys like Culpepper, McNair, McNabb, and Kordell Stewart making an impact at the QB position in the NFL.

That being said....yeah..they waited until pick 199 to take Tommy.... and drafted Tommy after taking Klemm, Redmond (my fave pick that year), Greg Robinson-Randall, Stachelski, Marriot, and Antwan Harris (the guy who took home Troy Brown's lateral in the Burgh!).

So, I would say that Belichick deserves partial credit for taking Brady....not all of it. And at the end of the day, nobody evaluates QBs very well....every other successful QB in the league was MOST likely taken in rounds 1 and 2 (and only maybe 50% of those picks panned out anyway) with a few minor exceptions like Brady, Purdy, Prescott, Warner, and etc... it is a literal crapshoot. BB's inability to draft a decent WR outside of Branch, Givens, Edelman, and Mitchell is more worthy of a discussion......

Disagree Hyped. Belichick made all final decisions on personnel, and as such he gets credit or blame for the pick. His staff could recommend or argue against whomever they wanted to, but Belichick always had final say.

 

[Huckleberry1]

P

Andy has done it with multiple qbs, multiple teams
The key games between Bill and Andy were razor thin close, small sample size.

Who would you choose as your coach in 2025?
Its Andy

Also Andy is not an a hole and a selfish dithering fool

Brady fell into Bill’s lap. Andy had the vision to trade up for Mahomes.

Wrong. Andy Reid has only won Super Bowls with one QB, Mahomes. And he has won 3 Super Bowls, not 6. And every other team passed on Brady, Belichick was smart enough to keep him and trade the 100 million 1st pick overall QBin favor of a 6th rounder.

 

[RobertWeathers]

P


Wrong. Andy Reid has only won Super Bowls with one QB, Mahomes. And he has won 3 Super Bowls, not 6. And every other team passed on Brady, Belichick was smart enough to keep him and trade the 100 million 1st pick overall QBin favor of a 6th rounder.

The argument for Reid is he won consistently with McNabb, Alex Smith, and with Mahomes took it to the next level. Reid needed a HOF performer to get over the hump (defense too). BB w/o a quality QB and OC struggles and because he isn't an innovative offensive mind, can't raise a QB's game.

Now, the argument for BB is he won 3X SBs (01, 03 and 04) without a HOF-performing QB. Why? Because he is a defensive mastermind, and in his prime, knew how to build a roster, manage a game and keep it close enough to have a chance.

 

[lancerman]

The argument for Reid is he won consistently with McNabb, Alex Smith, and with Mahomes took it to the next level. Reid needed a HOF performer to get over the hump (defense too). BB w/o a quality QB and OC struggles and because he isn't an innovative offensive mind, can't raise a QB's game.

Now, the argument for BB is he won 3X SBs (01, 03 and 04) without a HOF-performing QB. Why? Because he is a defensive mastermind, and in his prime, knew how to build a roster, manage a game and keep it close enough to have a chance.

In 2023 when the Chiefs won the SB, Mahomes was not top 10 in yards or passing rating and was not top 5 in TD's or completion percentage.

In 2004 Brady was top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating. His only non top 10 stat was completion percentage.

In 2003 Brady was 3rd in MVP voting and was again top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating with completion being his only non top 10 stat.

If you're going to say 2003 and 2004 are proof that Belichick can win without a HOF QB, you have to say that for Reid in 2023.

Right now the argument is a numbers game. Belichick has 6 and Reid 3. If that gap closes, then the argument is going to go beyond the most important thing and be about what they did without QB's. Realistically this all comes down to how long things go and if the Reid/Mahomes pair can get close. If he matches Belichick in ring count, he's going to get crowned because of how he did without Mahomes. But half as many titles is not going to ever win Reid the argument.

 

[signbabybrady]

In 2023 when the Chiefs won the SB, Mahomes was not top 10 in yards or passing rating and was not top 5 in TD's or completion percentage.

In 2004 Brady was top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating. His only non top 10 stat was completion percentage.

In 2003 Brady was 3rd in MVP voting and was again top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating with completion being his only non top 10 stat.

If you're going to say 2003 and 2004 are proof that Belichick can win without a HOF QB, you have to say that for Reid in 2023.

Right now the argument is a numbers game. Belichick has 6 and Reid 3. If that gap closes, then the argument is going to go beyond the most important thing and be about what they did without QB's. Realistically this all comes down to how long things go and if the Reid/Mahomes pair can get close. If he matches Belichick in ring count, he's going to get crowned because of how he did without Mahomes. But half as many titles is not going to ever win Reid the argument.

Yeah right now the gap is too big to say anything other BB.

Coming from me this might seem crazy but I don't think Reid or whoever else you want to debate about automatically has to have 6 or 7 to be considered better than Bill. Everyone's case is a little different but it's also crazy to go up against 6. So that story has to be crazy good too.

Problem for me with Andy will be when you point to his Philly days and try to use that to put him ahead of Bill we'll always be able to point out that if not for Bill Andy might have been even more successful there.

Even still though Reid does deserve some credit for doing better than Bill in his first gig and it will be up to the individual to decide how much to weigh that against multiple more rings and most will probably ignore head to head. But for now the gap is still too big and after this last loss I don't think we'll hear about it until they are on the doorstep again which with Mahomes will probably be soon.

 

[sb1]

The argument for Reid is he won consistently with McNabb, Alex Smith, and with Mahomes took it to the next level. Reid needed a HOF performer to get over the hump (defense too). BB w/o a quality QB and OC struggles and because he isn't an innovative offensive mind, can't raise a QB's game.

This. And that shortcoming (if you call it one) stands out in today's NFL.

 

[signbabybrady]

This. And that shortcoming (if you call it one) stands out in today's NFL.

Other than raising Brady's game of course

 

[RobertWeathers]

In 2023 when the Chiefs won the SB, Mahomes was not top 10 in yards or passing rating and was not top 5 in TD's or completion percentage.

In 2004 Brady was top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating. His only non top 10 stat was completion percentage.

In 2003 Brady was 3rd in MVP voting and was again top 10 in yards, TD, and passer rating with completion being his only non top 10 stat.

If you're going to say 2003 and 2004 are proof that Belichick can win without a HOF QB, you have to say that for Reid in 2023.

Right now the argument is a numbers game. Belichick has 6 and Reid 3. If that gap closes, then the argument is going to go beyond the most important thing and be about what they did without QB's. Realistically this all comes down to how long things go and if the Reid/Mahomes pair can get close. If he matches Belichick in ring count, he's going to get crowned because of how he did without Mahomes. But half as many titles is not going to ever win Reid the argument.

Good point on 2023. SB Reid as HC of KC had less than a top 5 offense...but had the #2 D.

Pats averaged 21ppg in 2003 w/ #2 offense. Dillion carried the offense in 04. Again a top 5 defense. Same for 01 (roughly).

If Reid wins 3 more SBs w/ a mediocre Mahomes and a top 5 D the nod goes to him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This. And that shortcoming (if you call it one) stands out in today's NFL.

Bill was the last HC to win a SB that wasn't an OC prior to becoming a HC.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The argument for Reid is he won consistently with McNabb, Alex Smith, and with Mahomes took it to the next level. Reid needed a HOF performer to get over the hump (defense too). BB w/o a quality QB and OC struggles and because he isn't an innovative offensive mind, can't raise a QB's game.

Now, the argument for BB is he won 3X SBs (01, 03 and 04) without a HOF-performing QB. Why? Because he is a defensive mastermind, and in his prime, knew how to build a roster, manage a game and keep it close enough to have a chance.

I think Belichick did a great job of raising Brady’s game, Brady didn’t come into the league as a great QB, but he developed season by season into the greatest QB of all time, and Belichick played an integral role in that. True, Belichick wasn’t an offensive mastermind, but he taught Brady how to read every defense, and how to manage every game situation, and those were the qualities that made him great. Brady learned how to manage overall games in sync with his defense, and could slow games down to keep Manning off the field, or speed them up to play catch up. No one was better at both of these approaches, imo it was the reason teams had such a hard time coming back in second half’s against them, Brady took the air out of the ball and kept them off the field. Granted he was no Mac Jones, but he did pretty good. And Belichick was the one who really taught him the game management he was so great at. Andy Reid is a great coach, but Belichick is the GOAT, and it really isn’t close. He built a 20 year dynasty in a league structured to keep that from happening.

 

[sb1]

Bill was the last HC to win a SB that wasn't an OC prior to becoming a HC.

McVay?

 

[Hyped]

Disagree Hyped. Belichick made all final decisions on personnel, and as such he gets credit or blame for the pick. His staff could recommend or argue against whomever they wanted to, but Belichick always had final say.

That is why I gave him “partial credit”. The point remains that BB did not pick Brady with our first pick (2nd rounder for Klemm).

Also, in the BB Pats front office era…our scouts were only graded by how said player performed on the team…if a scout had a high grade on someone who went to be a bust for another team….that was not held against our scouts. So, if Brady didn’t pan out…that would have fallen on Rehbein….so **** deserves partial credit also.

 

[h0c2000]