Why was this year's draft so much better than last's?

[Ring 6]

Saying "I know you don't like him" isn't belittling - it's acknowledging something based on things you've said and moves me back to trying to stay on the basic facts that worked against him while understanding your opinion of him.

It was Mac Jones, Bailey Zappe and rumors of Brissett last offseason, and Mayo had no relationships to leverage. It left Wolf with a tough sell. I think if quality players would have signed, he would have spent the money. They didn't, so he got the guys who at least considered playing here and didn't spend money foolishly. It is what it is. His black mark is Okorafor, in my mind.

I feel like Vrabel absolutely had a lot more influence in guys wanting to come here, which was both reported and spoken about directly by the players. It's also why I believe last offseason would have looked significantly different if Belichick had been given another shot in terms of their ability to sign quality players.

And again, there was a guy those players believed in, both in the fact that they had a viable QB and, more importantly, a coach they liked and wanted to play for. Absolutely made a difference.

As for Wolf, I don't know what he did/didn't do in terms of his role this offseason, and they could very well fire him for all I know. I'm guilty of giving guys the benefit of the doubt and hoping for the best ... it's a personality flaw. But if it doesn't work out and they let him go, I'll turn the page.

For now, I'm rooting for this year's picks to succeed and that some of the guys from last year turn a corner this year. If they do, everybody wins, and I think most people in here would be fine with that.

No. Saying I know you don’t like him implies I have a bias. I don’t dislike him, I evaluate his job performance and find it unacceptable. Your comment is the equivalent of saying “you are being emotional”. I really don’t care, but I didn’t think that was a tactic you would use.

Mac Jones was long gone. Everyone knew we were drafting a QB.

I asked you to evaluate what he did, not excuse by what you think he might have done if you remove the excuse. WR was a mess, Bourne and Osborne wasn’t a black mark? What about the defense?

Vrabels influence is that he picked the guys we signed. Last year Wilf picked them. If you want to believe Jerrod Mayo, then pro bowler who players respected = GTFO I won’t take you call and Vrabel = you are my top destination I dint know what to say. But there is simply no evidence in the history of free agency that this happens. Bad teams always sign top free agents, with one exception the 2024 Patriots.

Rather than benefit of the doubt, because that means no one is ever accountable, why not assess the job he had done? It’s ok to say he sucked. He has every opportunity to repair that judgment.
To me he was as bad anyone has ever been in the role last year. That has nothing to do with his he performs going forward unless it indicates he just isn’t any good at this. I’m not dooming him, I’m giving a report card so far. He’ll get another one this year.

I’d love to be having this discussion in a year and say Wolf did a tremendous job, but I can’t honestly say he hasn’t been awful so far, despite my wish that he wasn’t.

Ultimately this topic was Is Wolf a good personnel evaluator. And all the tangents aside I can’t see how anyone could say based upon his body of work they think he is.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

And again, it was the same 4-13 record and the same personnel department. So it's not like anything changed there.

Glaser was promoted in 2024 and had an increased decision making role in personnel (increased input anyway). For example, she was one of the main three people, Wolf, Mayo, and Glaser, interviewing the potential offensive coordinators, and worked on player contracts. When Vrabel was hired, Glaser was fired.

But with Vrabel and Maye this year, things were different. That's not a coincidence.

And the subtraction of Glaser. I agree, it was not a coincidence.

 

[BobDigital]

The real reason was unforced mistakes by other teams. Henderson was the 4th RB taken. Why? He was almost surely the 2nd best RB in the draft. I know there were a lot of good WRs this draft but a few guys went before Williams I Highly question. I know teams are looking for fit, but he really should have gone ahead of some guys. Wilson being there late in the 3rd makes no sense. We've seen center at his level go in the top 50 lots of times. Makes no sense. And don't even get me started on other players. Woodson more or less went where he should have though I still think a tic early, but not so bad. After that though. Why are these guys hanging around for us just to scoop up?

Then add in savvy and board awareness. Picking kicker when we did was board awareness of who was right after and their intention. Waiting on WR in the second knowing someone good be there who shouldn't at 69. Board awareness. I will not give them credit for Wilson's fall though. That was just too fortunate, but they probably had multiple guys they liked and figured someone of high value be there. But I don't think they REALLY believed for a second Wilson was likely to be there. They probably just figured there were a number of other valuable guys and were willing to let Wilson go, then he drops to them anyway.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

The real reason was unforced mistakes by other teams. Henderson was the 4th RB taken. Why? He was almost surely the 2nd best RB in the draft. I know there were a lot of good WRs this draft but a few guys went before Williams I Highly question. I know teams are looking for fit, but he really should have gone ahead of some guys.

Durability is what I read. OSU brought in Judkins to be the power back because of Henderson durability issues. The Browns drafted Judkins ahead of Henderson for the same reason. I agree, I could not be more pleased to have Henderson, but we will see if he holds up.

Wilson being there late in the 3rd makes no sense. We've seen center at his level go in the top 50 lots of times. Makes no sense.

Agree.

And don't even get me started on other players. Woodson more or less went where he should have though I still think a tic early, but not so bad.

Yes a tic early but maybe not. We will see.

After that though. Why are these guys hanging around for us just to scoop up?

Farmer I have no idea and the Pats moving up to draft him looks like a brilliant move as we jumped in front of the DT run. Swinson dropped due to attitude and personality. Swinson could be a real diamond if Vrabel keeps him in line.

Then add in savvy and board awareness. Picking kicker when we did was board awareness of who was right after and their intention. Waiting on WR in the second knowing someone good be there who shouldn't at 69. Board awareness. I will not give them credit for Wilson's fall though. That was just too fortunate, but they probably had multiple guys they liked and figured someone of high value be there.

Agree. The Farmer move up was more brilliant board awareness which I attribute to Streicher or Cowden as they are the new guys in the room and the awareness seemed new.

I love this class including the UDFAs but the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Ian]

No. Saying I know you don’t like him implies I have a bias. I don’t dislike him, I evaluate his job performance and find it unacceptable. Your comment is the equivalent of saying “you are being emotional”. I really don’t care, but I didn’t think that was a tactic you would use.

Either way, implying you have a bias isn't the same as belittling you. There was no "tactic" - we're having a conversation. By all accounts, the point was, I don't foresee you changing your mind on the guy. Which is fine, and if he's fired, whatever, it is what it is.

Mac Jones was long gone. Everyone knew we were drafting a QB.

That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that they didn't have a guy, nor was there a guarantee that whoever they drafted wouldn't be the next Zac Wilson. If you don't believe me, there were plenty of questions on here about how Maye would pan out, or if he'd even see the field that year if they took him. I'm sure that didn't help their cause.

I asked you to evaluate what he did, not excuse by what you think he might have done if you remove the excuse. WR was a mess, Bourne and Osborne wasn’t a black mark? What about the defense?

Vrabels influence is that he picked the guys we signed. Last year Wilf picked them. If you want to believe Jerrod Mayo, then pro bowler who players respected = GTFO I won’t take you call and Vrabel = you are my top destination I dint know what to say. But there is simply no evidence in the history of free agency that this happens. Bad teams always sign top free agents, with one exception the 2024 Patriots.

You left out the fact that Vrabel had a relationship with several of the guys they signed and convinced them to come here, and I'm sure he used Maye to tip the scale. That absolutely was a massive difference from a year ago.

A year ago, it was "Belichick's not there anymore, and who is Mayo...? Who is going to get me the football? You guys are talking about signing Brissett and some draft pick who isn't a guarantee? Thanks, offer me a big contract so I can use it against someone else because I'd rather not play there."

Honestly, last year was just so bad ... looking back on it now, it makes sense that they struck out. The bad teams you talk about generally have a viable QB or at least a skill player or two - they had literally nothing on that side of the ball.

Again, that entire situation was unprecedented, and I can't recall a similar situation elsewhere. I don't know how it was in Dallas when Landry was finally forced out and who stepped in, or Shula when Marino was done. Free agency started in like the early 90s I think...I'd have to go back and look. But I'd be willing to bet there weren't major additions in either offseason for either team. Either way, last year was unreal, and at the end of the day, you might believe Wolf didn't call anybody, but the majority of the facts - not my opinion - point to the fact that they struggled to attract people.

As I've said repeatedly, we'll have to agree to disagree. As for Wolf's future, that's on him, and life will move on for all of us regardless of how that ultimately plays out.

 

[Ian]

Glaser was promoted in 2024 and had an increased decision making role in personnel (increased input anyway). For example, she was one of the main three people, Wolf, Mayo, and Glaser, interviewing the potential offensive coordinators, and worked on player contracts. When Vrabel was hired, Glaser was fired.

And the subtraction of Glaser. I agree, it was not a coincidence.

That one was bizarre. I dismissed it at the time as them grooming her to eventually succeed Nancy Meyer, who given her age would probably be retiring at some point. But the stories that came out later following her departure, and the details that were reported, were shocking.

 

[Ring 6]

Either way, implying you have a bias isn't the same as belittling you. There was no "tactic" - we're having a conversation. By all accounts, the point was, I don't foresee you changing your mind on the guy. Which is fine, and if he's fired, whatever, it is what it is.

That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that they didn't have a guy, nor was there a guarantee that whoever they drafted wouldn't be the next Zac Wilson. If you don't believe me, there were plenty of questions on here about how Maye would pan out, or if he'd even see the field that year if they took him. I'm sure that didn't help their cause.

You left out the fact that Vrabel had a relationship with several of the guys they signed and convinced them to come here, and I'm sure he used Maye to tip the scale. That absolutely was a massive difference from a year ago. A year ago, it was "Belichick's not there anymore, and who is Mayo...? Who is going to get me the football? You guys are talking about signing Brissett and some draft pick who isn't a guarantee? Thanks, offer me a big contract so I can use it against someone else because I'd rather not play there."

Honestly, last year was just so bad ... looking back on it now, it makes sense that they struck out. The bad teams you talk about generally have a viable QB or at least a skill player or two - they had literally nothing on that side of the ball.

Again, that entire situation was unprecedented, and I can't recall a similar situation elsewhere. I don't know how it was in Dallas when Landry was finally forced out and who stepped in, or Shula when Marino was done. Free agency started in like the early 90s I think...I'd have to go back and look. But I'd be willing to bet there weren't major additions in either offseason for either team. Either way, last year was unreal, and at the end of the day, you might believe Wolf didn't call anybody, but the majority of the facts - not my opinion - point to the fact that they struggled to attract people.

As I've said repeatedly, we'll have to agree to disagree. As for Wolf's future, that's on him, and life will move on for all of us regardless of how that ultimately plays out.

I didn’t say belittling me I said belittling my argument.

So your argument is being ready to draft a QB at 3 (with 3 good ones there) is no chance anyone will come here, but after that guy wins 1 game all year we are a prime destination?

I’m struggling to understand why who will get me the ball matters to anyone but WRs. You are just making stuff up at this point, unless you can show someone said what you are putting in quotes.

Washington and Carolina had no qb. Arizona’s isn’t a magnet. Tennesse signed a ton of players. Every bad team ever was able to sign top free agents. We could have too, if we targeted them, but we didn’t.

You said the majority of FACTS say players wouldn’t come here, but you have offered no fact. No a single example other than Ridley negotiating but choosing another team (one that was just as bad and had no qb at all). “I heard people say they think…” isn’t a fact. That’s largely my point here. You are using speculation and rumor with no confirmation and calling it craft because you remember someone thought that.
If that’s your standard, why bother discussing? I am saying show me facts and you are saying I remember someone said something about the topic but I’m not going to actually show you what they said, just trust me.


You keep reverting back to you think he made calls. You don’t know, you are guessing. But the players that he didn’t sign give no insight to his evaluation ability. The ones he did tell me he doesn’t look very good at it.
It’s ok to honestly assess him without giving excuses and creating potential dynamics that have never been confirmed in order to avoid judging him in his actions.

We seem to be stick in a vicious cycle of me judging his actions and you trying to come up with reasons he doesn’t deserve to be judged.
Looks like we are getting nowhere again.

You jumped back in this time to restart the discussion we previously agreed to disagree on and have just said all the same things, so I’ll drop out here.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

That one was bizarre. I dismissed it at the time as them grooming her to eventually succeed Nancy Meyer, who given her age would probably be retiring at some point. But the stories that came out later following her departure, and the details that were reported, were shocking.

I assume Kraft Sr. made that decision along with his Mayo decision. It was reported Jonathan worked out the Vrabel contract. After two terrible decisions it looks like Sr. will be less involved.

 

[Ian]

I didn’t say belittling me I said belittling my argument.

So your argument is being ready to draft a QB at 3 (with 3 good ones there) is no chance anyone will come here, but after that guy wins 1 game all year we are a prime destination?

I’m struggling to understand why who will get me the ball matters to anyone but WRs. You are just making stuff up at this point, unless you can show someone said what you are putting in quotes.

Washington and Carolina had no qb. Arizona’s isn’t a magnet. Tennesse signed a ton of players. Every bad team ever was able to sign top free agents. We could have too, if we targeted them, but we didn’t.

You said the majority of FACTS say players wouldn’t come here, but you have offered no fact. No a single example other than Ridley negotiating but choosing another team (one that was just as bad and had no qb at all). “I heard people say they think…” isn’t a fact. That’s largely my point here. You are using speculation and rumor with no confirmation and calling it craft because you remember someone thought that.
If that’s your standard, why bother discussing? I am saying show me facts and you are saying I remember someone said something about the topic but I’m not going to actually show you what they said, just trust me.


You keep reverting back to you think he made calls. You don’t know, you are guessing. But the players that he didn’t sign give no insight to his evaluation ability. The ones he did tell me he doesn’t look very good at it.
It’s ok to honestly assess him without giving excuses and creating potential dynamics that have never been confirmed in order to avoid judging him in his actions.

We seem to be stick in a vicious cycle of me judging his actions and you trying to come up with reasons he doesn’t deserve to be judged.
Looks like we are getting nowhere again.

You jumped back in this time to restart the discussion we previously agreed to disagree on and have just said all the same things, so I’ll drop out here.

I'm not going to go round and round, either. Again, you act like I'm on an island on the fact they struggled to get anyone to come here. I'm not. People far more in the know than me reported on that. Barring phone records being put in front of you, there aren't going to be any "facts' provided to you regarding him exploring/pursuing anyone other than who they signed. I believe he likely inquired about some of the other names but was rebuffed, and they were forced to settle on the best of the worst.

And again, it was reported - it wasn't speculation:

Report: Patriots were ‘taken aback’ that team couldn’t attract players last offseason

Even with the Patriots having over $100 million in cap space last spring, New England struggled to attract many free agents.

www.boston.com

Why Patriots believe they’ll have more success this offseason

The Patriots offseason didn't go as planned in 2024. Here's why the team believes they'll have better results in free agency and the draft this year

www.masslive.com

In my opinion - which again doesn't matter - I've never seen a situation like we saw last year. I've never seen a team dismiss a coach at Belichick's level who also had a roster that was that bereft of talent on offense, no quarterback, and replace him with a no-name coach. And yes, prior to last season, anything with who they drafted was purely hypothetical. Maye could have gone out and looked like any of the average guys, especially since the overall consensus on his ceiling was split among many of the analysts last year.

Most of us thought otherwise, but I'm sure any player exploring their options needed a little more than that before packing up and moving their respective families. Some other team could have also offered up multiple firsts and/or more to move up to #3. It was all speculation ahead of last year's draft when it came to the QB.

And Maye's record likely isn't what made guys believe he was a good player. His overall performance is probably what formed that opinion, including the fact he also managed to do it with a bunch of unheralded guys. It obviously earned him the same Pro Bowl alternate opportunity Jones got.

You disagree on all of the above, and again, that's fine. And I as I've said, I get my opinion on that doesn't matter. But there were enough reporters who acknowledged that free agency was a struggle for them last year, including in the two links I posted. So in that context, that's where I stand on it. And you have yours, which you have every right to.

So I'm cool with also returning to my regularly scheduled Thursday. Carry on.

 

[Ian]

I didn’t say belittling me I said belittling my argument.

So your argument is being ready to draft a QB at 3 (with 3 good ones there) is no chance anyone will come here, but after that guy wins 1 game all year we are a prime destination?

I’m struggling to understand why who will get me the ball matters to anyone but WRs. You are just making stuff up at this point, unless you can show someone said what you are putting in quotes.

Washington and Carolina had no qb. Arizona’s isn’t a magnet. Tennesse signed a ton of players. Every bad team ever was able to sign top free agents. We could have too, if we targeted them, but we didn’t.

You said the majority of FACTS say players wouldn’t come here, but you have offered no fact. No a single example other than Ridley negotiating but choosing another team (one that was just as bad and had no qb at all). “I heard people say they think…” isn’t a fact. That’s largely my point here. You are using speculation and rumor with no confirmation and calling it craft because you remember someone thought that.
If that’s your standard, why bother discussing? I am saying show me facts and you are saying I remember someone said something about the topic but I’m not going to actually show you what they said, just trust me.


You keep reverting back to you think he made calls. You don’t know, you are guessing. But the players that he didn’t sign give no insight to his evaluation ability. The ones he did tell me he doesn’t look very good at it.
It’s ok to honestly assess him without giving excuses and creating potential dynamics that have never been confirmed in order to avoid judging him in his actions.

We seem to be stick in a vicious cycle of me judging his actions and you trying to come up with reasons he doesn’t deserve to be judged.
Looks like we are getting nowhere again.

You jumped back in this time to restart the discussion we previously agreed to disagree on and have just said all the same things, so I’ll drop out here.

And if you don't want to click on either link:

“According to multiple sources, the Patriots were taken aback by how many players didn’t want to come to New England — even if there was more money on the table,” MassLive’s Mark Daniels wrote in a column published Tuesday. “The Patriots’ goal last year was to sign receiver Calvin Ridley and defensive tackle Christian Wilkins.

“They were also turned down later in the summer by receiver Brandon Aiyuk. Top free-agent tackle Tyron Smith also didn’t want to come to New England.”

Report: Patriots were ‘taken aback’ that team couldn’t attract players last offseason

Even with the Patriots having over $100 million in cap space last spring, New England struggled to attract many free agents.

www.boston.com

So there are two additional names - Christian Wilkins and Tyron Smith - who he attempted to sign in addition to the ones that were a bigger story (Ridley and later the trade for Aiyuk).

There's some additional evidence for you - so I'll move on.

 

[Ring 6]

And if you don't want to click on either link:

“According to multiple sources, the Patriots were taken aback by how many players didn’t want to come to New England — even if there was more money on the table,” MassLive’s Mark Daniels wrote in a column published Tuesday. “The Patriots’ goal last year was to sign receiver Calvin Ridley and defensive tackle Christian Wilkins.

“They were also turned down later in the summer by receiver Brandon Aiyuk. Top free-agent tackle Tyron Smith also didn’t want to come to New England.”

Report: Patriots were ‘taken aback’ that team couldn’t attract players last offseason

Even with the Patriots having over $100 million in cap space last spring, New England struggled to attract many free agents.

www.boston.com

So there are two additional names - Christian Wilkins and Tyron Smith - who he attempted to sign in addition to the ones that were a bigger story (Ridley and later the trade for Aiyuk).

There's some additional evidence for you - so I'll move on.

That’s fine, we just have a different definition of fact vs speculation.

Thanks for providing that I see where you are coming from.

I would say though that those being the big misses doesn’t exactly exude confidence in his evaluation skills because they wouldn’t have exactly been home runs.

 

[Thelonious]

We don't yet know, of course. but it certainly seems so. Aside from Drake, I never thought much of last year's group. This group looks more promising, it seems to me.

But we don't know is the answer. Felgers knows, of course, and Mazz agrees, of course: that's his job. Talk about a pair of toolbags calling out other alleged toolbags.

 

[Ian]

That’s fine, we just have a different definition of fact vs speculation.

Thanks for providing that I see where you are coming from.

I would say though that those being the big misses doesn’t exactly exude confidence in his evaluation skills because they wouldn’t have exactly been home runs.

Yeah, that's not the case, and I've got a pretty good handle on the definitions between the two. I told you it was reported as something I both read/heard, etc. You refuted it as speculation. So, after multiple exchanges of you making me feel like I was nuts for suggesting it, I took the time and dug it out.

And the point wasn't to speculate over their potential impact. The point was that it was indeed a fact that options were explored beyond who they signed last offseason, and that they absolutely had issues attracting guys here. The only speculation was simply my belief of what the potential mindset of any player who opted not to come here might have been. Doesn't change the reality of the problems they faced last year in trying to sign them, which was explained in both links I posted.

 

[Wozzy]

Vrabel and Cowden…

The notion there is some mythical grading system that changed things is absurd.

There’s never a good time to draft a poor athlete, or reach to take a WR (Polk) or OT (Wallace) that you can find two or three rounds later.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I'm happy with Wolf as a key member of this team. Previously, BB was overly prescriptive, and Mayo not enough. Now we have a scenario where a GM can succeed, getting the right amount of guidance & feedback from the HC about the type of team he's trying to build. Cowden adds another layer of experience. Sounds like they all worked very well together this offseason, and the reputation of Vrabel and Maye certainly helped with FA's similar to the old days with BB & TB.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

This thread should lead to a new limit of 100 words per post.

 

[Thelonious]

I'm happy with Wolf as a key member of this team. Previously, BB was overly prescriptive, and Mayo not enough. Now we have a scenario where a GM can succeed, getting the right amount of guidance & feedback from the HC about the type of team he's trying to build. Cowden adds another layer of experience. Sounds like they all worked very well together this offseason, and the reputation of Vrabel and Maye certainly helped with FA's similar to the old days with BB & TB.

The fact that a worker "works well with others" does not necessarily correlate with an ability to do the actual job. It has become fashionable in a decadent age to pretend that it does, but it does not. Just a lot of HR puppies-in-a-box ********. It reminds me of people who when asked if they are satisfied with their doctor will say, "Oh yes, he's very nice," as if that make any difference whatsoever. Wolf's cumulative record of actual accomplishment under Bill, Mayo, and now Vrabel is at best mediocre. That he may be a pleasing presence at the watercooler is irrelevant.

 

[Ian]

This thread should lead to a new limit of 100 words per post.

LOL, a couple of definitions I clearly don't have a good grasp on are "concise" or "succinct." I need to work on that.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

The fact that a worker "works well with others" does not necessarily correlate with an ability to do the actual job. It has become fashionable in a decadent age to pretend that it does, but it does not. Just a lot of HR puppies-in-a-box ********. It reminds me of people who when asked if they are satisfied with their doctor will say, "Oh yes, he's very nice," as if that make any difference whatsoever. Wolf's cumulative record of actual accomplishment under Bill, Mayo, and now Vrabel is at best mediocre. That he may be a pleasing presence at the watercooler is irrelevant.

It's an executive team, not a 1 man job, especially given how Wolf was hired UNDER Belichick and has evolved to work Mayo and Vrabel.

Right or wrong, the Pats didn't clear house after BB and hire a powerful new GM who'd hire the coach, etc. With the approach the Krafts took, which can work very well with the right individuals, Wolf-Cowden-Vrabel and others like Highsmith reach consensus. To me it looks like this is working.

 

[The Gr8est]

LOL, a couple of definitions I clearly don't have a good grasp on are "concise" or "succinct." I need to work on that.

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.