Cool Link Brian Hoyer on Josh McDaniels on 98.5 (link now added)

[signbabybrady]

Depends on the position. For QB I want a guy who is a true believer. My question is do we want to limit ourselves at WR because they can't all get onboard with McDaniel's system when we know there are plenty of guys that can still be game breakers off their talent.

Is there a receiver that sucked for us that ended up moving somewhere else and proving it was the system by having success based on their talents?

 

[signbabybrady]

Divas ran wild in the WR room last year, an increase in accountability is badly needed so JMD will help the position simply by raising expectations. Without opening a can of worms, I feel that JMD's system has been unfairly blamed as the only reason that so many WR failed with the Pats. Especially toward the end Brady's perfectionism and intolerance for mistakes also helped to contribute to some of those failures because he refused to throw to anyone who didn't immediately pick things up which contributed to the situation. Between JMD's continued evolution and Maye's different temperament, developing the WR room should take a step forward this year.

With the hindsight we now have. Those failures were all on the WRs. Josh and Brady couldn't make them good but no one else could either.

Edit: and Bill a little for selecting them but that's a whole different can of worms.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

With the hindsight we now have. Those failures were all on the WRs. Josh and Brady couldn't make them good but no one else could either.

That is fair. Maybe a better way to look at the situation is that bad players failed so quickly under JMD and Brady that it looked as if the combo made it too hard for WR's to develop.

 

[Ray Ray 717]

When the podcast is out, I recommend it highly.

Points Hoyer made:

1. Josh's system is the best one he ever played in even though he had so little time in it comparatively (he explicitly compared it to WCO and Kyle Shanahan's system).

2. McD's system is updated every year and takes new things from everywhere and can even look like WCO and use RPOs and everything, but the terminology and onus on the QB to take greater responsibility remains.

3. When we talk about a system being too complicated for football players, it's kind of a misunderstanding. The system is not super hard or very complex. Instead, a player simply has to dedicate himself to the work of doing it. Hoyer believes that almost any player can learn it if they do the work. He specifically singled out Kendrick Bourne as an example. He said KB dedicated himself to learning it and he did it (though it sounded like Hoyer had some doubts from being KBs teammate in San Fran; I think he implied that KBs work habits may not have been the best in SF, but it showed that most any WR can pick up the system if they buy in).

4. McDaniels by far spends more time coaching up his QB than any other OC he's ever been around. McD works harder and tries to align his system with the QB better than anyone. Drake Maye is in the best hands he could possibly be in. Players who have been around Maye (FYI, Hoyer has a weekly podcast with David Andrews) say that he is great at processing fast.

5. The WCO, by comparison, makes the QB feel like a cog in the machine, rather than a director, and if the QB is very good and has the skills, it will accentuate their abilities and run like a Lamborghini. But it can make an average QB look bad as the requirements are too tight (accuracy, velocity). Whereas Josh's system can give you a big advantage with a good QB with skills (accuracy, velocity), who processes well, but it can also make a QB without those abilities look good (he basically credits McD for Mac Jones's first year and he thinks Mac's deterioration is a result from Mac not having the same guidance; he thinks Mac is in a bad situation in Jax and may never get back to his rookie year output).

6. MOST IMPORTANTLY: Josh is very much like Vrabel in that they demand accountability from the players. He said the Raiders did not want to be held accountable. The Raiders were not interested in the level of accountability required to build a winner. He thinks the Raiders offense operated as it should have in McDs first year (11th best offense in the NFL with Garoppolo) and that Davante Adams and Josh Jacobs had career years under McD. I looked it up and although Adams only had 103 catches (which is not near his career high), he had 1500+ yards which is very similar to his only 1400+ year in Green Bay.

7. He cited Jakobi Meyers as an anomaly among the Raiders because Jakobi prides himself on working hard and being accountable, and that not signing Jakobi was a huge mistake for the Patriots. Hoyer really threw his old Raider teammates under the bus, I believe. You may think he did so out of loyalty to McD, but he actually reiterated several times that he has actually played very little under Josh. He did not make it seem as though he has an especially close relationship.

Essentially, Hoyer believes that McD and his offense are at the very height of what you want in an OC in the NFL and that Drake Maye's future has just been made.

The insight about the type of offensive mcdaniels creates is illuminating and interesting, as well as greatly appreciated.

However, I am going to have to stop you at number 6. Let's not make excuses here. McDaniels had the same epic failure in Denver. The accountability and culpability falls all on McDaniels. He drove two franchises into the ground with historically egregiously atrocious leadership. Not 1 person in Oakland and Denver had anything positive to say about him. Mcdaniel's is the NFL's poster boy for 'How not to be a head coach'.

 

[Ray Ray 717]

Divas ran wild in the WR room last year, an increase in accountability is badly needed so JMD will help the position simply by raising expectations. Without opening a can of worms, I feel that JMD's system has been unfairly blamed as the only reason that so many WR failed with the Pats. Especially toward the end Brady's perfectionism and intolerance for mistakes also helped to contribute to some of those failures because he refused to throw to anyone who didn't immediately pick things up which contributed to the situation. Between JMD's continued evolution and Maye's different temperament, developing the WR room should take a step forward this year.

Blaming Brady now? Maybe if we actually provided him with real NFL wide receivers instead of untalented choir boys he would have stuck around longer and won us another Superbowl.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Not 1 person in Oakland and Denver had anything positive to say about him. Mcdaniel's is the NFL's poster boy for 'How not to be a head coach'.

This is literally an interview with Hoyer, who was in Oakland, and had positive things to say about McD.

 

[Ray Ray 717]

This is literally an interview with Hoyer, who was in Oakland, and had positive things to say about McD.

Cut it out. We all know McDaniel's two head coaching tenures are widely acknowledged to be amongst the worst in NFL history.

Let's hope he has his power limited, with zero say in personnel decisions on offense, and can focus solely on offensive schemes and making our QB better.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Blaming Brady now? Maybe if we actually provided him with real NFL wide receivers instead of untalented choir boys he would have stuck around longer and won us another Superbowl.

It is widely acknowledged that Brady refused to throw to WR that were in the wrong place. I am not playing your game.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Cut it out. We all know McDaniel's two head coaching tenures are widely acknowledged to be amongst the worst in NFL history.

Let's hope he has his power limited, with zero say in personnel decisions on offense, and can focus solely on offensive schemes and making our QB better.

Sure, I definitely don't want him as a HC. But I think he'll do fine as OC and QB whisperer, which is what we hired him for.

 

[Vindicate]

I was listening to McD with Edelman talking about building up the QB over years, adding more and more every year but never overdoing it and giving the QB more than they can handle. I don't think we have too much to worry about Drake having to learn a new system. I think it's going to be a match made in heaven.

Now getting the WRs up to speed...

Call me crazy but I think Boutte and Douglas are begging to be coached. I think they'll buy in.

 

[Ray Ray 717]

I is widely acknowledged that Brady refused to throw to WR that were in the wrong place. I am not playing your game.

You don't have to play my game. The game has already been decided. Those wide receivers all SUCKED, because our former GM was historically awful at drafting wide receivers. None of those wide receivers went on to do ANYTHING anywhere else and most ended up out of the NFL within a year.

History shows you give Brady a talented wide receiver near his prime (Not old), he will produce with him every time.

 

[Ray Ray 717]

Call me crazy but I think Boutte and Douglas are begging to be coached. I think they'll buy in.

Can we call in the fairy godmother to add height, speed, acceleration, and fast twitch athleticism to their bodies? Otherwise, don't expect much.

 

[Vindicate]

Can we call in the fairy godmother to add height, speed, acceleration, and fast twitch athleticism to their bodies? Otherwise, don't expect much.

Ok.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Can we call in the fairy godmother to add height, speed, acceleration, and fast twitch athleticism to their bodies? Otherwise, don't expect much.

Right, I think we're all demanding a better WR1 and hopefully a better WR2. But I think Boutte/Bourne can work as a WR3 and Douglas as our slot receiver.

 

[Ross12]

Call me crazy but I think Boutte and Douglas are begging to be coached. I think they'll buy in.

Pop already had a fairly solid rookie season under Bill O'Brien in '23, so I think he will have a big bounce back in McDaniels' system. Boutte didn't produce in year 1 but he seemed like he really pushed himself to improve in '24 despite the lack of leadership or anyone really guiding him. Getting him back in an environment where he's being helped and coached should, hopefully, bring him up even higher. He won't be a WR1, but a decent WR2? It's possible.

As for other guys - Bourne already knows the scheme and I think he will actually be pretty helpful early on even if he's not as athletically talented as he used to be. Polk developed a bit of an attitude but he had a rep coming out of school as a "high character guy" so it makes me wonder if the culture screwed him up. I'm willing to be optimistic and hope that perhaps some good coaching and culture will get him on the correct path again and he will be a solid player if so.

Lastly, Baker seems like the hardest-hit - he has the most accountability issues and also struggled learning routes in the WCO so learning Josh's scheme seems like an even bigger hurdle. I don't really have much optimism for him but I suppose anything is possible.

 

[Patsfan1645]

I think Josh will not just teach play designs but the concepts and once that is fully understood the sky is the limit for young Drake. I taught martial arts for several years. I learned about 80 self defense techniques from white belt to black belt. I could perform them well but once I was no longer a student but a teacher I needed to really understand the concepts behind them. Once I did that I could do any technique right or left handed, standing or on the ground with a stick or blade weapon in my hands or the attackers. I could tailor the technique to a 6'2 ft guy or a 5ft female and adapt it on the fly. Its like learning a language, Maye is still learning the words but once he has a wide range of words and understands their meaning he can make sentences and paragraphs and so on. That's what I think McDaniels can do for him and I'm excited to see the growth this year for him and this team.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Right, I think we're all demanding a better WR1 and hopefully a better WR2. But I think Boutte/Bourne can work as a WR3 and Douglas as our slot receiver.

The team needs one unstoppable weapon on offense. A true WR1 or Gronk like TE would open things up for everyone else.

 

[mike_usagisan]

The team needs one unstoppable weapon on offense. A true WR1 or Gronk like TE would open things up for everyone else.

I think it's going to be a while before we get there. But leveling up all of our weapons: WRs, TEs and RBs (and maybe a FB) would show a lot of progression.

 

[PatsFan2]

Call me crazy but I think Boutte and Douglas are begging to be coached. I think they'll buy in.

K Boutte made that Second year jump with a Misfit Coaching Staff: he was also drawing double coverage from the Safety. Jabar Van Pelt had no clue how to use a Slot Receiver thus Pop Douglas' pedestrian numbers. Pop will have a 1000yds with Josh book it! That said get a Higgins and Hunter/Tet: Pop Douglas and K Boutte becomes our #3 and 4 WR's: Strong Receiver Room right there.

 

[Ross12]

Hopefully they re-sign Austin Hooper, he played for Josh for Vegas in 2023 so knows the scheme. Having both of your starting TEs ready to hit the ground running with no/limited education needed feels like a solid cushion for Maye to lean on.